Front Burner - Death-bed COVID denial in southern Manitoba

Episode Date: June 7, 2021

A doctor and a mayor describe COVID-19 denial and anti-vaccine attitudes they’re seeing up close in their small southern Manitoba communities.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. COVID-19 COVID denialism and anti-vax attitudes have taken hold of some in a few small Manitoba communities near the U.S. border. Today, the toll that's taken on two people working to fight the pandemic and how this denialism can maintain its grip, even as people are dying of the virus.

Dr. Ganesan Abu is a physician at a hospital in southern Manitoba, between the two twin cities of Morden and Winkler. It's called Boundary Trails. And recently, they've been getting walloped by COVID. We've been very busy, and I think that is reflective of what's been happening in the entire province. We seem to have got the brunt of this third wave. I don't want to make it sound like we are working more than other physicians in Manitoba or in Canada or other places in the world. But, you know, in the 48-hour shift, I had a total of seven hours sleep. This probably sounds like a familiar story by now, and not just familiar

in Manitoba. They've had to convert two of their units to COVID-19 areas. Their oxygen supply has been strained. The long hours are exhausting, and not just for Dr. Abu. I think I'd be amiss if I didn't mention, you know, the significant amount of work that our nurses and respiratory therapists and healthcare aides have put in. It's hard enough for us to put in those hours, but our time is shared between many responsibilities. However, it is nursing staff that, you know, is our patients 24-7. And I think they are the real heroes in all of this. But there's another challenge facing Dr. Abu and his colleagues, one that sets it apart from other stories of overworked hospitals you've heard on this show before. Some of the patients coming through the doors, they don't seem to believe in the COVID pandemic at all.

I think it's a minority of patients in the community who hold that view. However, those are the patients who have refused to be vaccinated. So they do become quite a large segment of those who become hospitalized because of COVID and end up in our intensive care units. So we see a disproportionate number of people who are actually COVID deniers and anti-vaxxers. I think that's the best way to categorize it. The community I live in, these are really good people. I think it would be unfair to characterize everyone in this way. But we do see a significant number that present

who hold these views. Hearing Dr. Abu describe these patients so in denial about their condition, it can sound a bit surreal. I've had patients who, even on their deathbeds, have denied that they have COVID. They don't want to hear it. I've had patients who have left our emergency room very angry at being given that diagnosis. Patients who refuse to be tested because they don't believe that this is real. I think it fits in with whatever agenda that people hold that, you know, this is a conspiracy. And it's sad, but it's frustrating also

for us to work in that environment when we know and we can see the tragedy that is unfolding. And yet people choose, you know, even in dire situations, not to believe. What do they seem to believe is happening to them, if not COVID? Well, they would accept any alternate diagnosis. And I want to say that these are volunteered. This information is volunteered. I never try and induce this out of a patient, you know, do you believe or don't you believe.

These are all volunteered information. And they would accept anything else. And sometimes they would even tell us, tell me that my dad is dying from cancer. Tell me that it is a pneumonia and the antibiotics are not working. They're okay with that. They understand the gravity of the situation, but they will not believe that this is COVID.

The southern region that Dr. Abu's in has the lowest rate of vaccine uptake in the province. Just 46% of people there have had their first dose. That's significantly lower than other parts of Manitoba. In one district near his hospital, the vaccination rate is just 14.9%. And he says he hears a whole spectrum of views on vaccines. It's a wide range that ranges from that legitimacy to the ridiculous. You know, in terms of vaccine hesitancy, there's legitimate concerns about side effects, maybe unwarranted, but nonetheless, these are real. And then on the other end of the spectrum, we're seeing people who believe that we're inserting nanochips in them

by vaccinating them, and that somehow the government will be tracking their movements. And ideas that we are yanking out live fetuses in order to make vaccines. And I think, you know, all this stems from a clash of worldviews. And we in the scientific community hold a certain perspective. We understand the value of vaccination. We understand exactly what it is that it reduces in terms of hospitalizations and deaths. However, perhaps the general public doesn't have quite that understanding. And there's also a strong religious sentiment that goes with the anti-vaccination campaign. And, you know, I want to say categorically that the doctors in our community, and I think all doctors, we're not anti-religion. We don't have a fight to pick with religion. anti-religion. We don't have a fight to pick with religion. It's, you know, we're trying to protect our community by doing the best we can. And some of these views that people hold are misdirected,

and perhaps it needs more education. Perhaps it needs engaging in a more honest way with pastors, with community leaders, and trying to find some common ground. To be clear, Dr. Abu didn't single out a specific religion here. But provincial health officials have been working with local Mennonite leaders to help combat vaccine hesitancy. The area is home to many Mennonites, like Katerina Giesbreit. It wasn't long ago that Katerina was skeptical about the vaccine. I was one of those people that was very against the vaccine for the longest time when it was always on the news about bad stuff happening. And I said, you know what, let's just let God deal with it because he has made this world for us. He has created people in the universe.

And he knows what the next step is, whether we die or we don't. But then she got terribly sick with the coronavirus and was hospitalized at Boundary Trails. She now hopes that by telling her story, others in her community who may be hesitant about vaccines will reconsider. Dr. Abu is quick to clarify that he doesn't think religion is the only factor at play here, and especially not when it comes to the more extreme conspiratorial parts of the beliefs he hears. I think it is a combination of factors. I cannot say specifically, what I'm trying to say is that there is a religious influence, but there's also a lot of other misinformation on the Internet, on social media. And I think it's a combination of all these things that lead to this kind of belief. And it's very difficult because you see this carried over into the hospital situation in COVID denial,

because now people go the full extent and say, well, no, no, COVID doesn't exist. This is a conspiracy between doctors and government and big business. It's not real. And I'm not suggesting that that comes from a religious view. I'm suggesting that it's a combination of things. Brandon Burley is the mayor of Morden, just west of the hospital. It's got a population of less than 10,000 people. Agriculture and manufacturing drive the economy.

Companies like Farm King and 3M have factories there. Like Dr. Abu, Mayor Burley hears a range of views on the pandemic and sees a whole soup of factors that might feed into them. So there's always the sentiment that it's a flu or not worse than a flu. And then there's the fake news, disinformation, governments trying to control us. We're angry at the world. And this is the flavor of the week. There's that crowd as well. That seems to be not as prevalent as the former, but that is certainly some of the rhetoric that is certainly in the public domain.

Do you have a sense of where this is coming from? You know, this region has been fiercely and somewhat proudly rural in mentality, right? They've had long, harsh winters and the region has been built on hard work and innovation. And with that comes a lot of independent thinking that we're sufficient for ourselves and it's me, it's my family, these are the things that matter. And there's less, perhaps, recognition that our strength has to also be extended to other members of our community. It certainly can be, but if we're not motivated to do that, it won't be. If we're not motivated to do that, it won't be. And so I think there's a very dangerous narrative at play that is coming, a lot of it precipitated perhaps by an alt-right mentality, you know, that was precipitated and got a footing with, say, Donald Trump. And in our region, considering how we are not the United States of America,

there was a huge, relatively speaking, a huge movement for Donald Trump during the election period. And we had parades, you know, that went between Winkler and Morden, pro-Donald Trump parades. And, you know, some of the individuals who are now in the anti-COVID parade and leading that parade were involved in the pro-Trump parade. So there's also a part of it where it's just people who are disillusioned or perhaps angry, conspiracists who don't trust government. And a lot of the distrust is rightly placed. Sometimes, I mean, we do have a large population who have fled government persecution. And so there's definitely an element of distrust of government in our region.

Can you tell me more about that? You mentioned you have a population that has fled government persecution. So both in Winkler and Borden, I mean, a lot of the Mennonite populations fled persecution in Eastern Russia, or Eastern Europe and Russia, sorry. And a lot of the newer immigration from Germany and Eastern Europe has had a similar experience with government, right?

The government was not always on their side and was to be distrusted. And, you know, one of the things that I've experienced is we've said, look, the government's not here. There's no conspiracy. Government isn't that good at anything, let alone being able to cover something of this size and magnitude. magnitude um but then in the middle of this messaging you have something as atrocious as the discovery of children at a residential school in Kamloops and then I hear aha there it is government will operate against its own people you know and that's a hard hard message to get past message to get past because we do have this history in our own country of oppression and good cause for distrust of government. And so that has become another obstacle that has to be

gotten by. Dr. Abu also talked about how religion was playing a role here. Is it largely the Mennonite churches, or are you seeing this at other churches as well? I don't know of a Mennonite church, strictly speaking, in our region who's actually breaking COVID orders. There are Mennonites involved in it, for sure, people of Mennonite descent. But again, some of the most outspoken people in response to this, some of the best responses I've heard are coming from the Mennonite church. Mayor Burley also worries that an element of peer pressure can also start to seep in. Oftentimes it's directed and focused by our peers. And that was reinforced for me one day on social media, when a friend I have on social media, I have friends that are really more acquaintances on social media, but one gentleman had posted that he had gotten the vaccine.

Immediately upon posting that within five minutes, he had two comments telling him what a misstep this was because he wasn't trusting the Lord. You know, that kind of pressure is a hard thing to rise against when people are calling out something that you identify with and you consider foundational to your identity. Image is a hard thing to shake in a small community. And I think there's a lot of social pressure to not get vaccinated. There's a lot of social pressure to not wear a mask sometimes. And I think that social pressure is what's causing our low vaccination numbers. You know, for people who are on the fence. Dr. Abu has seen up close how that kind of influence can happen and how painful it can end up being. I've also had families who have become remorseful.

I've had a patient who was very sick in the ICU who wanted to be vaccinated, but her daughter had said, had persuaded her against getting the shot. And, you know, in that situation, I understand how guilty that daughter must feel, whether she believes in COVID or not. And, you know, she felt guilty. I could sense it. But I never pursued that with her. I tried to be supportive to the patient and the family

and tried to treat her as I would treat any other patient, because I think it is that kind of trust that we build with patients that may actually make them turn around and maybe re-evaluate how they're thinking about this. I'm hoping that that kind of engagement will be more meaningful rather than getting into a confrontation or even in ourselves becoming angry and defensive. So even as Dr. Abu approaches these situations with deep equanimity, I wondered if it was taking a toll on him. I have found it challenging, but I found my own way of dealing with it.

If I may add to that, you know, I think the people who feel the frustration the most are the nurses, because they are the ones that really spend the time going into each of these rooms, having to wear PPE, having to wear N95 masks the entire shift, taking the vital signs every hour, holding that patient's hand as they're dying there without any family. They are the people that feel that frustration. They are the people that feel that they're not acknowledged because when people deny that this is a real thing, then they somehow see a conspiracy in all that's happening in the hospital that that too is not real. And it's

unfortunate that patients can't actually have a visual of exactly what is happening in our hospitals because perhaps that may make them think about this in a different way. You know, even if they look at all the television images of mass burials in Brazil or of hospitals running out of oxygen in India, and that's not real to them. They still think that is all fake. Like they think it's like fake images on the television or? Oh, that's fake news, right? That's all that's fake. But if they could see what's happening in our hospital,

our community members, their own family, maybe that message will get through to them. Just maybe. But unfortunately, you know, that's not possible in the midst of a pandemic.

But I wish they could. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to,

50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So as mayor, Brandon Burley has been really vocal against these kind of conspiracy theories about the virus. And he supported the public health measures put in place by the province.

But it's taken a toll on him too. At times, a really personal one. It's always difficult when you have a substantial amount of the population that believes that their charter rights are being infringed on and you are one of the infringers of said rights, you know, I've lost a number of good friends over this. I do wonder, you know, have there been times during this as you're losing friends that maybe you wish you just could have not been a public figure, not had to take a public stand? Every single day. Every single day I look back and say, had I known, would I have done this?

had I known would I have done this and I don't think I have the kind of moral courage or personal strength that would have taken to have run if I knew this was the this was the thing I was wondering if you tell me a little bit more about some of the interactions they've had in the community you mentioned before an anti-COVID parade. And can you tell me a bit about that? Yeah. So there have been parades arranged, and it seems to be now that Winkler and Winnipeg

are the two central destinations for those parades. Those parades carry through our community. They go through our community every Friday evening around seven o'clock and blow their air horns. And they've been known to shout insults at kids wearing masks. And they did come by my home. I was in the backyard flipping burgers when I heard it coming up the main arterial route to my home and i knew that they were coming to my house and so you know in in that moment i made the decision to to stand out front of my house let them know that i wasn't going to back down from them i wasn't going to be bullied or intimidated. And so I stood out front. My seven-year-old son came out as well and stood beside me.

And I told him to go inside. And he said, I don't want you to be alone. And so it took the kids a long time that night to get to sleep. It was probably one in the morning almost before they could get to sleep. And I stayed up a substantial part of that night. There was one comment that was thrown out a window at me that I perceived in the moment as being a threat. Somebody yelled, are you wanting to die or what at me?

And I did call our police chief on his cell and said, what should I be doing with this? And because in the moment I was terrified, like I was downright afraid. And he said, you know, every time you take one action again, in summary,

every time you take an action, you risk putting five more into their cause. Right. And so in that moment, I was, I was terrified in front of my son, you know, how dare you come to my house and threaten me and my family in front of my son. So I, I did what was impulsive in the moment and I flipped them the bird, you know, I, I'm not proud of that reaction. And had I had time to premeditate it, that certainly would not have been my reaction. I did publicly apologize for that. That's not the example I want to set for this community. But it is and was essentially the sentiment I feel towards people who will come into my community and risk my constituents for their own personal narrative. They have no business doing that. I can't imagine how I would have felt in that moment, having these strangers roll by my home. And here's the thing. It wasn't just strangers.

You know, a lot of the parade participants were from Winnipeg and subsequently learned that some were from much further afield. But my own sister was in that parade and came out yelling at me and very unhappy with my position. And, you know, it's not, it's certainly not a moment in time for people who won't act with resolution. His own sister. There's a lot of hurt here. You can hear it in his voice. But there's gratitude, too, to so many people in his community. I've spoken about some of the folks who have been conspiratory and who certainly are clearly on one side of the fence.

But I think it deserves mentioning as well the people who are not on fears, you know, who have gone out and gotten vaccinated, who have decided to wear a mask even when it wasn't comfortable or it wasn't fashionable to do so. Right. It takes like courage. Yeah. Absolutely takes courage. I draw strength from that. And I say, look, there are people right across this community and across this region who are doing the right things. And you owe a duty to them, you know, to protect them and to ensure that the best practices are maintained. I've lost three community members to COVID-19. I have a substantial number of people who are at risk. And, you know, I guess I want to thank the people who are doing the right things. You know, without that, there's no chance we continue. I mean, there's no chance that anybody has the strength or the resolve to continue to try to fight the pandemic or even to try to encourage people to do the right thing. I do fear, however, that we are facing a crisis with respect to our public offices and institutions on the other side. this with respect to our public offices and institutions on the other side. You know, when you have a set of leaders and people in public office who will be worn out,

and a lot of whom probably won't run again, not just in Morton, but right across this country, and there's a very real danger that they will be replaced by people who do not understand the charter, who do not have the best intentions for public well-being, and who will be there for their own goals, their own purposes. But we cannot be led by angry people without a purpose and who are self-interested. That cannot be the future of this country. And so I've encouraged and I have encouraged folks who are interested and who are well-intended and well-meaning to get involved in the next election because the next election really will determine where our country goes, both at a municipal level, but also at provincial and national level. Our response to this pandemic will be loudly voiced in all of our next elections.

So I encourage people to consider running, but also to make sure you get out a vote and ensure the future of our country. I want to go back now to where we started, to the hard-hit Boundary Trails Hospital. I asked Dr. Abu if he was worried the anti-vaccine and COVID denial attitudes he was seeing would make it more difficult to get a handle on the pandemic moving forward? You know, I'm optimistic. As much as we talk about all these things, the community of Winkler and M know, people take care of themselves. They're not reliant on outside help. So there's a lot of that positive feeling in this community.

So the way I see it unfolding is that we engaged with community leaders, with church leaders, with influential people in the community, and try to build some sort of platform that we keep presenting positive messages, that we slowly try and turn this around by, you know, engaging people, earning their trust, not making them feel like they are inferior or that they're not worthy. And I think that is the way, when I look at the younger people in our community, you know, they get it. They get this. They understand what it is. They understand the value of vaccination. I think it's going to take a little more effort and honesty amongst all stakeholders

to turn things around. Dr. Abu, I wonder if before we go today, I could ask you if there's one patient or one story of someone who held these beliefs that you were treating that really stands out to you that really stays with you now? Yeah, I can tell you about a young man who was very boastful that he did not need the vaccine because he didn't believe in it. He didn't believe it was helpful. And he got more and more hypoxic, needed more and more oxygen. And finally, we had made that decision to intubate him,

put him on a ventilator and, you know, try and transfer him out of our facility to a tertiary care center. And I watched this man go from that kind of boisterous state to such a desperate state, you know, just before we could intubate him. He was on the phone to his family, and you could see the anguish that finally it resonated with him that he may not survive this, that it was possible that he could die from this. And he knew that every other patient in that situation in our hospital hadn't been vaccinated. And before we actually intubated him,

I had spoken to him and I had spoken to him, and I had spoken to his family after that as he was being airlifted by helicopter. I stood outside, and we watched with his family, and they said he has changed, that he now believes, and we too. We understand that this is real. So I think that was a very positive story for me.

And it's one that encourages me to continue in this process of engaging with patients and showing some grace, like, you know, not just belittling them, Really bring them on board. Before we go today, an update on increasing calls to the Catholic Church to apologize for its prominent role in the residential school system. Pope Francis gave a response over the weekend but did not issue an apology. to cooperate with determination to shed light on the discovery of what is believed to be the unmarked graves of as many or more than 215 children on the grounds of a former residential school in Kamloops that was operated by the Catholic Church. Phil Fontaine, a former National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations and residential school survivor, said he is still demanding an official apology from the Vatican and accuses the Catholic Church of keeping documents about residential schools a secret. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks

so much for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.