Front Burner - Democrats scramble to remove Trump from power

Episode Date: January 12, 2021

On Monday, for the second time in his one-term presidency, Democrats introduced an article to impeach Donald Trump. Previously, Trump was impeached but not convicted by the Senate. But following last week's deadly riot at the Capitol building, Democrats are trying to hold Trump accountable. Their tactics also include a resolution urging Vice-President Mike Pence to invoke the 25th Amendment and remove Trump from power. Today on Front Burner, CBC Washington correspondents Lyndsay Duncombe and Alex Panetta explain what might happen next.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. This is a charge that has never been brought before. It's historically unprecedented. Incitement of insurrection, accusing him of willfully inciting violence against the government of the United States.

So here we go again. For the second time in his one-term presidency, Democrats have introduced an article to impeach Donald Trump. We've been down this road before, but this time is different. Because you'll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength. Does President Trump have blood on his hands? The U.S. Capitol is now the site of a homicide investigation.

No question in my mind that he was responsible for inciting this riotous mob. Following last week's deadly riot at the Capitol, Democrats are trying everything possible to hold Trump accountable, including a resolution urging Vice President Mike Pence to invoke the 25th Amendment and remove Trump from power. If the cabinet votes he's gone, they should do it now. Pelosi warning Mike Pence if he doesn't act soon, she will. My CDC Washington colleagues, Lindsay Duncombe and Alex Panetta, are here with me to explain what might happen next. I'm Jamie Poisson and this is FrontBurner.

Hey, Lindsay and Alex, it is great to have you back. As always, thank you so much for joining us. Pleasure to be here. Good to be here. Okay, so Lindsay, let's start with the big news from Monday. There was lots of it, but the Democrats have now dropped two separate documents geared at holding Trump accountable for last week's Capitol Hill riot. And they're moving on parallel tracks, these documents, and take me through what they are.

Well, the two tracks involve the 25th Amendment procedure or an impeachment procedure. When it comes to the 25th Amendment, they have this resolution, which is asking Mike Pence to invoke the 25th Amendment, which would take a majority of Congress to remove the president from office. But all indications are that Vice President Mike Pence does not want to do that. So at the same time, they've introduced this article of impeachment, which could come to a vote as soon as Wednesday. Okay. And Alex, I want to come back to the impeachment resolution. But first, can we spend a little bit of time talking about this move to push the vice president to remove Trump from office through the 25th Amendment? And so what kind of pressure is Pence facing from both sides here to either invoke the 25th Amendment or not?

You know, Donald Trump has been a hot potato for Washington ever since he announced this presidential run in 2015. A lot of people have hoped that other people would deal with him, whether it's primary voters in 2016, whether it's members of Congress hoping state lawmakers would clarify the election results, state lawmakers looking to Washington. And in this particular case, you have members of the executive branch saying i believe to capitol hill you guys deal with them um and capitol hill saying to the executive branch well you know why don't you guys uh get rid of mike pence and cabinet through the 25th amendment uh they've given mike pence 24 hours to answer if it should the house

of representatives vote to invoke the 25th. And I believe that it will pass. And once that happens, if Pence does not respond within 24 hours, then they move on to impeachment. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on 60 Minutes. Well, I like the 25th Amendment because it gets rid of him. He's out of office. But there is strong support in the Congress for impeaching the president a second time. This president is

guilty of inciting insurrection. He has to pay a price for that. Right, right. And I just want to be very clear here. Pence plus a majority of the cabinet would have to vote to invoke the 25th Amendment, right? Pence and a majority of the cabinet. That's correct. Okay. And what would the argument be for not doing this? And I know that many Republicans are saying that this is a bad idea right now, and I imagine they're telling Pence that. House Resolution 21, resolution calling on Vice President Michael R. Pence to convene and mobilize. For what purpose does a gentleman from West Virginia rise? I object.

Objection is heard. Well, part of it is that it's not necessarily a slam dunk, right? So you can do the vote to invoke the 25th Amendment, but the president then has the opportunity to object. And if he objects, then it goes back to Congress, and you need a two-thirds majority in Congress to actually remove the president from office. So that is opening up a whole can of worms, especially when you consider the number of members of Congress that have sided with the president and in the vote just last week to not certify or

voted against certifying the election of Joe Biden. Lindsay, I want to take a few minutes here to talk about Mike Pence and his role in this administration. This is a guy who has stood by Trump for four years, right? And now he's under tremendous pressure to do something which has never been done before. My understanding is that the 25th Amendment has never been invoked in this way in history since it was created in the 1960s. And, you know, first, let's talk about Pence a little bit. What examples stick out to you from his tenure over the last four years? You know, Jamie, I do not think that Mike Pence has ever spoken publicly during the entire Trump presidency without delivering the most effusive praise of the president. You know, the American people are witnessing the strong leadership of President Trump on the world stage. And the world is seeing that President Donald Trump

is stepping into the role of leader of the free world. I think of his role as the head of the coronavirus task force. Remember those news conferences in April and May when the situation in the United States just kept getting worse and Pence was presenting this alternate view of reality heaping praise on President Trump. You made it clear that we'd spare no expense of the federal government the full resources of the federal government you made available to put the health of America first. But there was a breaking point last week with the

certification of the election results because Donald Trump was falsely saying that Pence, in his role as president of the Senate, overseeing the ceremonial role of certification, had the power to overturn the election results. I hope that our great vice president, our great vice president comes through for us. He's a great guy. Of course, if he doesn't come through, I won't like him quite as much. And Pence knew that he doesn't have that power. And reportedly, he tried to convince the president of that.

And he even wrote this long letter in the lead up to the actual certification explaining why he doesn't have that power, saying that a vice president cannot claim unilateral authority to reject states' electoral votes. But the president, Donald Trump, clearly sees Pence's action as a betrayal. And so do his supporters. I mean, we heard chanting outside the Capitol on Wednesday, hang Mike Pence. Reuters editor saying he heard at least three different rioters at the Capitol say they hope to find Vice President Mike Pence and execute him by hanging him from a Capitol Hill tree as a traitor. Right Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence! Right. And, you know, these chants of hang Mike Pence, Alex,

it certainly seems to me that in the days since the insurrection at the Capitol, more details have come out here about the depths of the violence. And, you know, I wonder if this is putting even more pressure on Pence to act. And before we get there, you know, let's talk about some of those details. What's really stuck out to you, what we've learned since Wednesday? It's horrifying. Well, I was in that crowd. I saw people dressed in tactical gear, you know, wearing camo and speaking on walkie-talkies.

There's a lot of guys who are playing soldier here. USA! USA! Among the evidence, threatening online posts, weapons, explosives, and those zip ties often used as handcuffs. And this wasn't, this isn't just, I mean, I've covered a riot before. I'm from Montreal. Every time the Canadians win a series, sometimes there's a riot. This was not a riot. This was, this was people seeking to overthrow the constitutionally elected government of the United States. Hello, U.S. Senate, yes, we have a fraudulent election. Yeah, we need to get our boy Donald J. Trump into office.

Rioters even replacing the Stars and Stripes with the Trump flag. This embarrasses me. And the people in that crowd were clearly threatening to come back with guns. Come in! The next time we come back, we won't be peaceful! Yeah! back with guns. Right, right. I mean, the videos that have come out, the photos are, are, they're stunning. They're unbelievable. The police officer getting crushed by a door. Another very difficult video to watch, a police officer getting beaten by an American flag. Get that mother f***er out of there! Take him out! You know, you mentioned chants of hang Mike Pence on 60 Minutes. Nancy Pelosi

told the story this week of how she had staffers barricaded. Pelosi told the story this week of how she had staffers barricaded. The staff went under the table, barricaded the door, turned out the lights, and were silent in the dark. Under the table? Under the table for two and a half hours. Wow. During which time they listened to the invaders banging on that door, as you can hear on a recording from one of the staffers' phones. that door, as you can hear on a recording from one of the staffers' phones. You know, of course we know that pipe bombs were planted near the Capitol. There are images of people wearing Nazi paraphernalia. And the death toll. The death toll is now at five. The New York Times is reporting that an officer was murdered, that he was struck with a fire extinguisher. We all know about the woman who was shot by a police officer, and now three others reportedly died of medical emergencies. And Alex, you know,

do you think it's fair to say that Pence is under mounting pressure to remove Trump from office because of these details? The country's a tinderbox right now. And there's the argument against impeachment seems to be, well, not that Donald Trump doesn't deserve it. The argument against impeachment seems to be, don't drop a match on this tinderbox right now. Right. And the idea that, you know, Pence is maybe shying away from invoking the 25th or, you know, wanting to invoke the 25th. Lindsay, like you mentioned, it's not a slam dunk. And this idea that it would just be lighting a match in front of gasoline, right?

And you have to remember that Vice President Mike Pence is potentially making some kind of ambition political calculation here. This is a guy who wants to be President of the United States, presumably at some time, and for more than a week. Alex, do you think that these arguments will ring hollow to people who just watched their Capitol building under siege? I think a lot of people conclude that the American political system is broken, that you could possibly try to overturn an election and cite a mob to interfere with the democratic transfer of power, and your party will protect you

because this political system is so poisoned by hatred that nothing really matters. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been

talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Lindsay, I want to move on to impeachment now. Can you tell me what arguments the Democrats are making in the impeachment article that was introduced Monday? I read this four-page document, and the language is really, it's really something. The article reads that

President Trump gravely endangered the security of the United States and its institutions of government. It goes on to allege that he threatened the integrity of the democratic system, interfered with the peaceful transition of power, imperiled a co-equal branch of government, betrayed his trust to manifest the injury of the people of the United States. It goes on to say that the president has demonstrated that he will remain a threat to national security, democracy, and the Constitution if allowed to remain in office. So yes, certainly very dramatic language. Okay, so they put this all down in writing. And since it

looks like the 25th Amendment probably isn't going to happen, how is this impeachment proceeding going to play out? Trump has, you know, just a little over a week in office. Well, the process in the House of Representatives could be really fast. We're expecting a vote on Wednesday. We know that the Democrats have control of the House and they have the vote. So very real possibility that Donald Trump will become the first president to be impeached twice. But that, of course, doesn't mean that he'll be removed from office. That decision can only come after a Senate trial. And the timing in the Senate is way more complicated because the Senate isn't scheduled to come back until the day before inauguration. And if there is a Senate trial, if the articles of impeachment are delivered to the Senate, and we saw this

last year, the whole ceremony of moving the articles from one house to another. A resolution appointing and authorizing managers for the impeachment trial of Donald John Trump. The message will be received. If that were to happen, all other business in the Senate stops. and that would have real consequences for the Biden administration. It would mean that they would not be able to confirm cabinet secretaries that they need to get business going. They wouldn't be able to have bipartisan coronavirus release, which Joe Biden has said would be a priority as soon as they run into office, as soon as they run into office, which is why we are seeing some Democrats make the suggestion that what the House should do

is impeach the president, but hold off on sending those articles over to the Senate for, say, 100 days. Majority Whip Congressman Jim Clyburn in South Carolina. Let's give President-elect Biden the 100 days he needs to get this agenda off and running. And maybe we'll send the articles sometime after that. Right, right. I've heard this argument that Lindsay just laid out as well today, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it.

Alex, what is the purpose of dropping these articles in the Senate after Trump leaves office? Like why convict him after he's not the president anymore? So there's the principle of it. And then there's the practical reality that the principle of it is it leaves a message for all of history. This is the only president ever convicted after an impeachment. This is the only president ever impeached twice. And I was speaking with one of the political scientists who works on the rankings of American presidents. They make these lists, you know, best to worst. He said this would solidify the case forever, that Donald Trump will be listed on a list of U.S. presidents as the worst in history, and that it would probably leave an impact for generations. Now, whether or not President Trump

cares about that, there's another more practical reality for him to consider. And that is, it appears that politics is now going to be the family business. They've got this huge multi-million dollar, multi-hundred million dollar super PAC, which has been raising money off the post-election fight. They're going to use that to start primarying anti-Trump members of Congress on the Republican side. They're presumably going to be raising more money for these primary fights. They're talking about starting their own social media network. There's talk about a news network. All of this power is augmented if Donald Trump intends to run for president again. If Donald Trump is a spent political force, all of these things become less important and less influential in the Republican Party. In other words, politics is now his brand, it's now his business. And if you say

you're never running for president again, well, then he's suddenly less powerful. And that question of whether he would be disqualified from running for office would be intimately tied to the impeachment procedure. And Lindsay, tell me how it's intimately tied to the impeachment procedure. There has been lots of information floating around about this in the last couple of days. the Senate in order to reach that, then there is a second vote potentially, which could mean they could bar him from ever running again. And that is just a simple majority. And there would be some calculations there among Republicans who want to run for office themselves, who look at the prospect of, hey, Donald Trump not in the race in 2024, that base is up for grabs. So I think there are a lot of Republicans that could see themselves voting to have Donald Trump not be able to run again. It's

maybe more of an easier call than the actual conviction on impeachment. Final question for today. The actual conviction on impeachment. Alex, we all saw what happened last time. Donald Trump was impeached in the House and the Senate did not convict him. And do we think that there is a real chance that that could happen this time around? So last time I remember saying, either to you or someone else, maybe it was on TV, I said, I would eat my socks if the Senate convicted Donald Trump.

I think it was me. It was all three of us, I think. Yeah. That prediction held up. This time, I'm not so sure. I actually think he might be convicted. Now, people will say, you'll never find 17 Republicans that you require in the Senate for a two-thirds majority. But keep in mind, the Constitution doesn't talk about needing to have two-thirds of all members of the Senate. It talks about having two-thirds of all members present. Now, the way I think it could potentially play out is you have members of the Senate who have been torn over what to do here. And I spoke with one member of Congress's staff a couple days ago talking about how wrenching this decision was, not on the principle of it, but on the politics of it. They're afraid of getting primary. They're afraid of even potentially worse threats to their families and to themselves. Well, in this particular case, what I could imagine happening is some members of the Senate saying, you know what, I don't want Donald Trump not being sanctioned for this.

I think he deserves it. I also don't want him running for office again, because a lot of people have got a bunch of different reasons for wanting to see his political career. And on the other hand, I don't want to be putting myself in the in the firing line here. It's a metaphorically speaking. So what do I do? Well, maybe I say, look, I don't want to participate in this. And I wash my hands of it. And I don't show up for the vote. In which case, and if only five or 10 or 12 members of the Senate do that, then you might get to a place where you only need eight Republicans, nine Republicans to vote to convict.

And I think that's doable. All right. Lots of interesting stuff in this conversation, guys, and lots to look out for in the coming weeks. So I look forward to talking to you again soon. Thank you so much. Thank you. You're welcome. All right, so a couple more notes on this story before we say goodbye today. On Monday evening, after we recorded this episode, Trump and Pence met at the White House, according to a senior administration official. The official added that they had, quote, a good conversation.

And according to ABC, an internal FBI bulletin is warning of armed protests at all 50 state capitals and in Washington, D.C. in the days before January 20th and during Joe Biden's inauguration. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner and we'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.