Front Burner - Election! Rallies, reporters, and tax havens

Episode Date: April 14, 2025

Election day in Canada is only two weeks away.All the major parties have been holding rallies across the country, with some Conservative supporters bringing “Do you believe the polls?” signs to a party event.Conservative leader Pierre Poilievre is facing scrutiny over limiting media access, and Liberal leader Mark Carney is facing questions about his time working in the private sector and billion-dollar funds he oversaw in tax havens.Rosemary Barton is the CBC’s chief political correspondent. She’s here to catch us up on the latest developments in the campaign.Plus, we get the story behind how two Liberal party staffers planted ‘stop the steal’ buttons at a conservative conference.For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

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Hey everyone, I'm Jamie Plesson. We are only two weeks away from Election Day. All the major parties have been holding rallies and some conservative supporters are bringing Do You Believe the Poll signs to their party's events. Both Pierre Polyev and Mark Carney are facing scrutiny over a couple of issues that have been following them through the campaign. Polyev on limiting media access and Carney on his time working in the private sector. Lately it's tax havens. My colleague Rosemary Barton is back on the pod. She is the CBC's chief political correspondent. But I just want to say

that after our conversation this crazy story broke about how liberal campaign workers planted stop-the-ste steal buttons at a conference last week for conservative leaning Canadians. Some people are calling it button gate. I'm going to talk to the reporter who got the scoop on that later in the show. But first, my chat with Rosie. Hey, Rosie, it's great to have you on this Sunday.

Happy to be back. Week four of the election campaign, if you can believe it, we have debates coming up this week. How important are they for each leader? I think that they are important. I know some people think, oh, debates don't matter. It won't change anything. I think it always has the potential to change something. And in a race where the polls kind of show things to be pretty flat right now,

like not moving very much for anybody, I'm going to watch them for that reason, because it could shake things up. Obviously, Mark Kearney has the most to lose. He's the front runner. He's never done this before. The French debate will be a challenge for him and everyone will be attacking him. I mean, he will be the target in all of those debates. I think that the NDP and the Bloc have the most to gain because this is a moment where they can actually get some attention and they've been struggling with that a fair bit. And then finally for Piyapoliev, we'll see. He is obviously super well known for his ability in the House of Commons, is a very good speaker in English and French, knows how to take shots at people. I think the challenge for him is how do you take shots at someone without looking too

aggressive? Because that has proven to be an issue, like ability factor for Mr. Poliev through the campaign. So he's got a fine line to walk. But yeah, I mean, listen, I think that in a race where there's only a couple of weeks left, this is a moment that could change things, but we'll see. Leading up to this, all the parties have been busy holding rallies and events.

Poliev in particular has been talking a lot about how big his rallies have been. And they have been very big, I should say. How many, how many people do you think we had last night? Thousands. Well, that's pretty obvious. I think you can be more precise than that. I don't, I mean, the party said 10,000 registered. There's reports of 15.

I, I, I really can't say. Wow. One last question. When was the last time we had a rally that big in Canada? I don't know. I've never been to one, a political rally that big, I don't think. You know a lot about politics. You're a very well-informed person. I know that if there were a bigger rally than that, you would know about it. I think so. Especially that one in Edmonton, where he was introduced by Stephen Harper. I am the only person who can say that both of the men running to be prime minister once worked for me. And in that regard, my choice, without hesitation, without equivocation, without a shadow of a doubt is Pierre Bollier.

Why do you think they're emphasizing that so much? What are they trying to accomplish here? Yeah, I mean, listen, I've been covering politics for a long time. The size of rallies always is a thing, right? And parties always try and give into, there's more people in the room than there are because that's what they do. Why it matters in this instance, I think, and why Mr. Paulyev himself keeps bringing it up

is because they are trying to create a sense of momentum that maybe they don't believe they have. And that can work, right? People can get excited around seeing a leader in a room like that and seeing so many people cheer for him. That can get people thinking, oh, well, maybe things aren't what they seem, and maybe he actually does have momentum,

and maybe he could pull this off. Those are all things, I think, that are valuable to a politician. They're particularly valuable if you are trying to get your base motivated, right? And you're trying to get them to lock in and stay with you and not doubt anything. I'm not sure what they do for the rest of the population. If you're not someone who's excited about Mr. Poliev already, I don't know that they change anything.

And I'm going to steal this one super smart thing that my friend Chantelle Bair said on that issue this past week, because it was something I hadn't thought about it. So I'm going to totally steal it and give her credit. Sometimes when you focus on the size of your rallies, though, you give the impression that you are going to win. And in the case of Mr. Poliev, that actually might be hurting him because the NDP voters who have flocked to the liberals would be watching those rallies thinking they're big,

thinking he might win, and that might freak them out a bit. And so then they solidify their support behind the liberals. And anyway, Chantel said that and it made me, I thought that was so smart and it made me think of a different way to look at those rallies when Poaulyava is talking about them. Picking up on what you said there about how it might not be, they might not be getting the people that they need necessarily. I just want to pick your brain a little bit more about that because it does strike me that he holds these rallies and

he gets up there and he talks about crowd size but also slashing carbon levies on heavy emitters. I will axe the tax for everyone, for everything, for real, for good, forever. Cutting foreign aid. We will cut foreign aid to dictators, terrorists, and global bureaucracies to bring our money home. Kicking the CBC out of its headquarters. It warms my heart to think of the beautiful family rolling up in their U-Haul to move

into their wonderful new home in the former headquarters of the CBC. These are really popular lines at the rallies. But these clips then make the rounds. And I wonder if what they are also doing is turning off the people that he needs to come and vote for him, other people. Yeah, I mean, the rallies are interesting because as you said, as you outlined through all those points there, he talks about the things that have always made him popular and the things that have always been important to him in terms of who he is as a leader and the things that are important to a large part of the conservative base. So he needs to say them because he needs those people to continue to believe in him and that he's going to get those things done. But you're right, as they get clipped and sent around, particularly on social media,

it reminds Canadians who maybe would have voted for him that he also represents some things that they're maybe not comfortable with. And perhaps more importantly in this moment, Jamie, he also sounds a little bit like someone they're not comfortable with. And by that, I mean Donald Trump. He is not comfortable with. And by that I mean Donald Trump. He is not Donald Trump. He does not have spousal same policies as him. But talking about some of those things, cutting foreign aid, for instance, cutting funding to a public broadcaster, those are Trump things. And so sometimes that I think could be triggering

for Canadians in a moment when they are pretty united in their distaste for Donald Trump. Let's talk about the Do You Believe the Polls? signs and shirts. Supporters showed up with them in Brampton. I should mention that the conservatives are trailing in every major public opinion poll right now. What do you make of this trend and what could it mean for the campaign? Well, first of all, there's no evidence that the conservative party is in any way involved

in this. That's, I think, important to say. And Mr. Pauli certainly didn't endorse what these people were doing. Listen, if you're a conservative supporter and you have dreamed of Pierre Poilier being prime minister for the past two years, you probably don't want to believe the polls right now. So I think that's fair. I think the bigger bigger problem for everyone, frankly, is the idea that that is somehow suggesting that the results might not be right either. We've seen where that kind of thought process leads other countries like the United States. I don't think we're that far down the rabbit hole yet. But I think just planting a seed of that by this small group of people could be problematic

for us if the election is closer than we think or if the outcome is not, for instance, what these people want. Public opinion polling is, as you know, an attempt by data to get a sense of where people are at. No one is saying that it is the decided outcome. No one is saying that this election is over. And everyone certainly agrees that the most accurate poll is what we will get on election day. One more rally related thing to ask you about. At a liberal event in Calgary, someone shouted, These are carnies. There's a genocide happening in Calgary. Thank you. Thank you, Diana. I'm aware. Which is why we have an arms embargo. And some people have seized on Carney's remarks as evidence that he believes that a genocide is

happening in Gaza, which is the conclusion, as we talked about many times on the show before, reached by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and some genocide scholars, and rejected by Israel. Carney later said that he didn't hear the term genocide because it was noisy. This escalated when Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu tweeted about it, disparaging Carney. Could this become a problem for the liberal leader? when Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu tweeted about it disparaging Carney, could this become a problem for the liberal leader? I think the short answer is-

Is it already a problem? Yeah, maybe, maybe. Again, this is not an election that has had a lot of other topics come into the election. And probably that has been helpful for the Liberal Party when it comes to the Middle East. Justin Trudeau, as prime minister and liberal leader, was dealing with it, was dealing with keeping people inside his party concerned about what was happening in Gaza, onside at the same time as trying to keep his Jewish and Israeli

supporters onside. So this is a natural fault line for the Liberal Party. It has been there before and it will be there again. The fact that that Mr. Carney purports that he didn't hear the word genocide is fine. I guess that gets him out of this particular situation right now. Are you proceeding? It's a genocide in Gaza? I didn't hear that. Actually, I didn't hear that word as you were there, I guess.

So it's noisy. You get, if you're up there, you hear snippets of what people say. And I heard Gaza and that. And my point was, I'm aware of the situation in Gaza and Canada does, as you know, it's a matter of public record. We do have restrictions since. But is it a thing that could bubble along? It sure could.

It sure could because it has in the past for the Liberal Party and the conservatives have had a very clear position on being pro-Israel in this situation and so it also offers them some potential to attack Mr. Kearney as well. On the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz comes an unprecedented exhibition about one of history's darkest moments of Auschwitz comes an unprecedented exhibition about one of history's darkest moments. Auschwitz, not long ago, not far away, features more than 500 original objects, first-hand accounts and survivor testimonies that tell the powerful story of the Auschwitz concentration

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Let's move to the media. There has been a lot of talk about media access to big events like these rallies, but also news conferences. At conservative events, journalists are kept at a distance and often behind these kind of pendant barriers. They're only allowed to ask Polly of four questions with no follow-ups and party officials decide which reporters get to ask those questions. Like we mentioned before, the conservatives aren't allowing journalists to travel with them,

something that's conventional for election campaigns. And can you just tell me more about what some of the interactions between the conservative campaign and journalists has looked like during this campaign? Yeah, so obviously this is coming to me via my smart colleagues in the bureau who are doing the heavy lifting and the traveling. So yeah, first of all, they do seem to limit where they can move physically, contain them behind a barrier or whatever, put them in a certain area in the room. I mean, some of that to some extent is normal, but they also don't want them sort of wandering around and talking to people. The question piece is not the usual

way of doing business for journalists. The fact that you can't ask a follow-up question is really challenging because if you are trying to get a clear answer, it means that you can never press the leader again. So that has been hard for journalists. There are people traveling with Mr. Poiliev who sometimes suggest issues or questions to the journalists to ask, which is a little bizarre and not very effective. And the reason that the conservatives say behind some of these things, the reason they're doing it this way is because they want to hear from different voices that are the quote unquote mainstream or traditional media. They want to hear from local people. They want to hear from podcasts. They want to hear from divergent political views. That's their explanation

or rationale for doing it. But it has become, I think, this past week, far more challenging for both the conservatives and for the media. Yeah. Maybe one example that's a bit illustrative of that was this particular exchange that got a lot of attention. I think it was in Sault Ste. Marie, right? A CTV reporter, our former colleague Judy Trinh at CBC, now she's at CTV, asked Pierre Poliev about his refusal to get a security clearance. The final question. Laurence Martin, Radio-Canada.

Sorry, I'm listening to that question. We... Sorry, there's just a protester here. Bonjour, Monsieur Poliev. Go ahead. Sorry. Is the reporter trying to ask a legitimate question? Sorry.

We're listening. We're trying to listen for the next person. You know, she had shouted out her question because she wasn't sure if she could answer that question. She was trying to answer that question. She was trying to answer that question. She was trying to answer that question. She was trying to answer that question. She was trying to answer that question. She was trying to answer that question. I'm a protestor here. Go ahead. Sorry. Sorry. Is there, we're listening. We're trying to listen for the next person. You know, she had shouted out her question because she wasn't one of the four

journalists who were chosen by the campaign that day to ask a question. Um, look, you and I are both in the media. So I do want to acknowledge that probably we have an inflated sense of how important we are. Um, but seriously, do you think this media issue matters to people? that probably we have an inflated sense of how important we are. But seriously, do you think this media issue matters to people? And if so, why? Yeah.

First of all, I will just say that Mr. Poliev, I would find it shocking to believe that Mr. Poliev didn't know that that was a CTV reporter. So I'll just put that out there. I actually don't think this is at all about the media. Just to be clear, I actually think that this story is not about the media at all. This story is about someone who is applying for the biggest job in the country. And part of what journalists do during an election campaign is sort of perform that

job interview in lieu of Canadians, ask hard questions, try to get clarity, try to understand positions so that Canadians can make an informed choice. And I personally don't actually care how a political party chooses to run their media campaign. That is their choice. But I do think that journalists play an important role run their media campaign. That is their choice. But I do think that journalists play an important role in an election campaign.

I do think it's important that they can ask questions. And I do think that that matters to Canadians, that they can see and hear from their leaders directly. Is it the most important thing? Are people gonna vote on this issue? Will this change minds in any real way? I am sure it will not. But I think anytime we are not allowed to hear

from the leaders and candidates and all people who want to be elected officials, it is a disservice to the citizens who are going to vote for them. And that's the part of the story we really need to focus on, because that's the thing that matters in an election, that people have the information they need to make a good decision.

I know global news journalist David Aiken, who's been counting, he found that Carney responded to over 100 questions from journalists, whereas Poliev has answered half of that. But look, I also think it's important to say here that there are some criticisms that can be lobbed at the liberal leader as well, potentially. You know, he is answering way more questions

in news conferences, but he has not been sitting down for any real critical English language interviews at the moment. I mean, neither has Pierre Poliev or Jagmeet Singh. Yeah, I mean, first of all, I won't equate what the other leaders are doing with what Pierre Poliev is doing with the media, because it is not the same ballgame. All right. Like, it is a different approach entirely. And CBC before two days ago hadn't had a question to the conservative leader for 10 days. So it is it's not it's not the same ballgame.

But no, at this stage no one has agreed to an English language interview with us. I don't believe they have with any other organization as well. It is a fast campaign, it is hard to make time. But right now, people who speak French or people in Quebec will have had the most exposure to these leaders in French because of the 5 Chefs, une election, the series that Radio Canada did, because they will have a French debate, because they are appearing more in Quebec media, because tonight Pierre Poiléov and Marc Carney will appear on Tout le Monde en parle, which is the most watched TV talk show in Quebec, and Jagmeet Singh was there last week.

So yeah, I mean, that's a problem for people who don't speak French and want to get a little more insight into who these people are. Most of that is happening inside Quebec. And why? Why do you think it's happening in Quebec and not elsewhere? I mean, Quebec is a big battleground for sure. It is the path to forming government for the Liberal Party. It is an important place for the Conservatives to hold seats and maybe gain a few.

But the shorter answer is I don't know. I wish that I was doing an interview or you were doing an interview with these people, but for some reason it's not happening this election. ["The New York Times"] Let's talk a little bit more before we wrap up today about the liberal campaign and Mark Carney, who has for months had to deal with a lot of questions and attacks about his assets, which he has put in a blind trust, but we don't know what he put in there initially,

although I will say he doesn't have to disclose that. He has also faced criticism over his time working for Brookfield Asset Management, the investment firm, and there's been lots of reporting recently showing how he oversaw some investment funds, where some $30 billion based in Bermuda and the Cayman Islands. The accusation here is that there was tax avoidance going on, which is perfectly legal and widely used, but seen by others as unfair. And so how has Carney responded to this? A couple of things. So our colleague, Daniel LeBlanc, has done some of this reporting around those funds that were created while Mark Carney was still at Brookfield.

And we're talking, as you said, like billions and billions of dollars inside these tax havens, as you said, completely legal, and in this case, set up to make sure that Canadians also pay taxes on profits from investment inside Canada and not foreign countries. So a tool that big asset funds use regularly. Mark Carney has defended the move by saying that this is legal. First off, I'm no longer at Brookfield. Secondly, this follows their arrangements, follow the rules, including the tax rules. And also a way to make sure that Canadians can make money, because sometimes Canadian

pension funds are wrapped up in these investments in the cases that we've cited here. And people can then draw down on those profits. What's important is that we have an effective tax system and that companies, every company follows the rules of those tax to not just the letter but the spirit of those regulations. I think what's actually going on here though in terms of these criticisms and attacks is an attempt to question Mark Carney's integrity, right? It's part of a narrative that the conservatives are trying to lay down about the idea that Mark Carney doesn't have Canada's interests at heart, right? Whether

it be the time that he spent in England, whether it be how he let some jobs from Brookfield go to New York, whether it be putting money in a tax haven, so trying to work around the Canadian tax system. That's all part of a story that they are trying to tell about someone who, let's be honest, has spent years of his life in the public service working for the country. But it's a way to sort of chip away at some of that stuff. People can have their own opinions about whether tax havens should be used or not. And certainly, Mr. Carney, if he stays on as prime minister, if he becomes prime minister and is elected, we'll have to take a different approach when it comes to tax havens as prime minister, because this is an issue for a government in a way that it isn't for a private wealth

management firm, because a government needs to have as much tax revenue coming in as possible. And so I think we would see something different from him, at least I think Canadians would expect something different from him, if he were to become prime minister. Because there is, I guess, while not a legal question, perhaps an ethical question about whether you want someone who's given that advice and done that to be in the role of prime minister and then perhaps trying to crack down on some of this behavior, which again is legal, but is maybe not preferred.

$5.3 billion. What does that mean? Well, that's 50,000 nurses that could have been hired. That's streetcars, that's buses, that's public infrastructure. Not only for the federal government, but also for the provincial government. They're the hardworking people behind me who pay too much and spend hours filling out paperwork for CRA. And then there are the global elites who dodge taxes using sophisticated overseas tax havens who

reap all the benefits of Canada and contribute nothing at all. At the moment, are we seeing these attacks take hold? I, you know, it's hard to say, but I don't think so. And I'm not saying that they should or they shouldn't, and I'm not saying that they aren't questions that should be asked. They are absolutely part of the conversation. The one time I did interview Mark Carney before he became liberal leader,

I asked some of those questions myself. But for whatever reason, this election is just so different, Jamie, because of where we are in the world right now. The things that would stick to people, I think, in past election campaigns just aren't being looked at the same way for many Canadians. Some Canadians might look at the move to use tax havens to shelter Canadian pension funds

and get more taxes for, sorry, get more profits for Canadians and say, hey, that's pretty smart. Maybe this guy can help us deal with Donald Trump. Like that is, that's the kind of bizarro kind of world we're in right now, where something where that may have been questioned in a different way in a previous election is being questioned in a completely opposite way now, right? And so it's hard to see how these things feed into a view of who Mark Kearney is. And I think that's part of the problem that the other parties are having

in this very, various kind of strange, but fascinating election. Rosie, thank you. I really appreciate you coming on. I always enjoy it. Thank you. All right. So, before we go today, as promised, we have a bit more for you from an election

story that broke later by our colleague Kate McKenna. Kate, hey, thank you so much for this. Hey, thanks for having me. Wild story. Let's talk about how it unfolded. You were out Friday night, what happened? Yeah, so I'm out Friday night at Darcy McGee's, which is a bar in Ottawa, kind of known in the Ottawa bubble as a place that people go. And I went there after covering

the Canada Strong and Free Conference, which is like a conference for conservatives that talks about, you know, they can network, they can talk about conservative ideas. And I'd been covering it that week. So after doing that, I went and I had supper with my boyfriend and a couple of friends. And while I was there, I heard from someone I know who is a liberal who said he was coming to the bar and he was going to have a drink and we could catch up about how the campaign was going.

And so I said, sure, that's no problem. Head over and talk to him. And at that point, there are a number of people there who have all kind of introduced themselves to me as being part of the liberal campaign. Some of them I recognize because Ottawa is a small town. So we're on the far side of the bar. It's kind of an open space. It's maybe worth mentioning that I don't drink, so I'm completely sober. And I am talking to the first person I mentioned, a person I've known for a very long time who's a liberal.

And the guy next to me is talking about these buttons. And I, again, just covered this conference. These buttons that were at this Canada Strong and Free Network conference. They were very strange buttons. I did notice them and I actually took photos of them while I was covering the event because I thought they might be real. There's a button that says Jenny Byrne and then that's crossed out and it has Cory Tenik under that. There's another button that says, perhaps more interestingly, stop the steal.

And this person is talking about how the liberals planted these buttons at this conservative event. Huh. So I was like, whoa, you guys planted those? Like I kind of confronted him. Yeah, and just before you get into it, I just want to jump in because those buttons like the, Jenny Byrne is the current head of the conservative campaign and she has been taking a lot of criticism for how the campaign has been going, namely from the other guy that you mentioned, Cory Tenak, right?

And then also, obviously, the Stop the Steal is a little more explanatory. Okay, so you're like, whoa, what do you mean you planted them? And then what does he say to you? I'm actually going to sound very Pollyanna-ish because I was like, no, no, those weren't planted because the people at the conference had told me the Stop the Steal thing was the Taxpayers' Federation and I believed them, which I was incorrect to do. I go, no, no, they're the Taxpayers Federation. This guy goes, no, no, it was us. And I'm like, what? You guys planted these? That's news if you're telling me that the liberals ran this kind

of false flag operation at this conservative event. And then he denied saying anything at all. I leave the bar shortly thereafter and I'm talking to a conservative source who says that another liberal campaign staff person was at another bar saying the same thing. Now the liberals are being accused of dirty tricks, planting this stuff, and they did issue a statement late Sunday referencing reports that we talked about earlier with Rosie, the, do you believe the poll stuff saying quote, that liberal campaigners had created buttons poking fun at those reports,

which regrettably got carried away. And that Mark Carney does not think that this fits his commitment to serious and positive discourse. I can expect that we are going to ask Mark Carney about this as soon as possible. But no, it's not the first time that a tactic like this has been used in a campaign, but it's unusual to hear it directly from the people who did it. Yeah, big time. Kate, thank you for this.

It's a pleasure. All right. Well, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.