Front Burner - Encore: 'Suddenly, this is all he'd want to talk about.'

Episode Date: September 6, 2021

One woman’s story of how two of her loved ones got pulled into conspiracy theories — and how she fought to bring them back from the brink. This episode originally aired in January 2021.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hey everyone, it's Jamie. We're bringing you an encore of an episode today about something that still feels really relevant right now. It's about what happens when people in your life, people you love and care about, get sucked into conspiracy theories online, including COVID-19 conspiracy theories. And what can be done about it.

We recorded this episode back in January. Have a listen. We'll be back with a new episode tomorrow. Listen, we'll be back with a new episode tomorrow. I mean, I was quite a bit younger at the time, but he seemed like a fun, open, intelligent person. He was in graduate studies in the sciences. He seemed very smart and he was warm and a little bit blunt. But I found that extremely charming and we hit it off. We were just two kids having a good time. Yeah. So today I want to tell you about a young Canadian woman

named Priya. At least that's what we're calling her. All the names in the story have been changed and we've also disguised Priya's voice to protect her privacy. Priya started dating this guy, Steve, when she was in her undergrad. And for a long time, their relationship seemed pretty normal. Cooking together, a lot of Netflix. Eventually I got to know his family, so going to visit them sometimes. Just really normal, cozy, domestic things. Just a very normal, average life. We weren't doing anything very crazy or extravagant, but we loved spending time. But cooking was actually a huge part of it. Yeah. I mean, one of the things I appreciated really was that he liked the food

for my culture. And we made that a lot and he seemed to really enjoy it and be interested in it. So that was definitely a big thing between us. Priya is South Asian. Steve is white. It was fun. It was a lot of fun. We just enjoyed our time together. And I guess the conversations were never too, too deep. I knew he had different interests from mine. He liked sports. He was more of a small town person. He was almost apolitical. And he was just funny and curious about the world around him. In the summer of 2018, Priya landed this awesome research opportunity, an internship in another city. She and Steve had been together for more than a year at this point and about halfway through her time away, she suddenly started to notice that Steve didn't seem so apolitical anymore.

The whole situation was going on with children being separated at the border from their parents by immigration services and these kids being in cages. And he was showing me news articles from Breitbart and the Drudge Report saying that this is fake, it's overblown, and some of these kids are being even saved from human trafficking. Like, just strange, strange things. And I just, I didn't know what to make of it. I was thinking, like, is he joking? Is this, like, how do you believe this stuff? Like, where is it even coming from? Priya was also really excited about the research that she was doing.

But on their phone calls, Steve didn't seem to share in that excitement. He wanted to complain to her about new initiatives in his science department. He just started coming at me with all these passive aggressive complaints about some of the programs put in place to improve like social justice and diversity in the department. And initially, I was very consumed with my work. So I just kept thinking like, this is weird. Like, why is he latching on to it? She says it was strange, but she figured that they'd sort it out when she returned home and they could talk in person. But when Priya did return home in the fall, she says things got Things got even weirder. He didn't seem happy that I had a future now, where as a woman, you know, I was happily

talking about what my career would be. And instead of focusing on that, he was talking a lot about these new intellectuals that he was bringing up whose names I wasn't even familiar with, who later when I looked them up, they were kind of like dark web sort of people trying to advocate for more traditional societies where women had less of a role as intellectuals and professionals and being independent. And I just found it so weird because I wasn't receiving a direct comment about my work and my newfound purpose but he was talking about these people um it was starting to bother me I was like can somebody really be happy for me if these are the things they believe and that's that's what

really started bugging me because he would never say stuff like this before I left. These new intellectuals Steve was reading, he wanted to talk about them like a lot. I would wake up in the morning or just be sitting down to dinner. And instead of a, hey, like, how was your day? What are you up to? Like suddenly this is all he'd want to talk about. And when Priya did learn more about these quote-unquote intellectuals, she was alarmed. There was this guy, J.P. Rushton, a deceased Canadian psychologist who promoted theories about race and intelligence that have now been roundly debunked, like that white people had larger brains than black people. Curtis Yarvin, also known as Mencius Moldbuck, who's this key philosopher of the neo-reactionary movement, which is like this anti-egalitarian, pro-authoritarian philosophy that is really

popular with the alt-right. He's written that he's, quote, not exactly allergic to white nationalism. And then there was Spandrel, also a neo-reactionary. He was just somebody else who would just go on and on about this topic of bio-Leninism. Bio-Leninism. This was a Spandrel theory that Steve loved, and Priya began to feel this total sense of dread every time that it came up. as some kind of corrupt plan by the Marxists to destroy the power structure so people who are naturally gifted can't get ahead and they can have control over people by getting the mediocre skilled masses, as he referred to them, and having their support in numbers. It was a conspiracy. Right. having their support numbers. It was a conspiracy. Right.

So we've looked at a bunch of Steve's texts and social media posts. He was really active on Reddit, which is also where Priya thinks he learned about a ton of this stuff in the first place. Many of the posts deal with the idea that Priya just talked about, that the real purpose of diversity and inclusion initiatives are about gaining power. That women and racialized people and immigrants from low income countries aren't smart enough to get top jobs on their own merits. So a ruling class of progressive elites gives them these jobs. That way, these groups remain loyal to the progressive elites so that they can take over society. Like Priya said, it's a conspiracy theory, specifically a sexist, white supremacist conspiracy theory. And Steve started to see evidence of it all over the place.

The night that they were walking down the street after picking up groceries, and he saw this billboard. I think it was Roots. Or maybe it was The Gap. No, it was Roots. It showed an interracial couple. The man was Caucasian. The woman was clearly not white. I think she was mixed race, but the child also looked mixed race.

And he pointed to that and he said, this is what I hate. This is part of the marxist agenda this is woke capital um this is it's just manipulative we don't need it like this is just liberalism gone astray like what is this and he just went on this tirade about these companies now also uh cater to the tastes of these bi-lendonists with this woke advertising and i am standing there holding a grocery bag at this intersection staring at him and looking at him and looking at my own hand which i can assure you is just not look caucasian at all and i was like hey like if we ever had kids like what are they gonna look like? And I don't know why

he just started, he just suddenly said, like, that's different. There's not that many couples like us. And he completely dodges that. Now, before we go on, I imagine that you might be thinking to yourself, this is a South Asian woman who has big dreams for her career. Why is she staying with this guy who's now telling her that women should advance less in their careers than men, and that mixed-race couples on roots billboards are a sign of a Marxist ploy to take over society? Do you mind if I ask you, you know,

what was keeping you in the relationship all this time while all this was going on? I just felt like the stuff that you believed was so outlandish that it has to be a mental health issue. It was so out of touch with reality that to me, I treated it like a delusion or a psychosis. Well, pre his career was taking off, Steve was struggling to find a job. And she figured, okay, this is temporary. He'll get over it. And the guy I fell in love with will come back.

And I just thought if I could convince him to just talk to somebody and get some help and be able to recontextualize the pressures he's facing as a young person about to finish their education and, you know, have to go out there and be self-sufficient financially and work a job, that transition can be stressful. Maybe he'll realize that he is trying to find a scapegoat for his own insecurities. is trying to find a scapegoat for his own insecurities. She also tried to use logic. Steve is a scientist, and so she figured that maybe she could reason with him. I would try and find data and news reports showing clear changes in privilege and outcomes for people of certain demographics over the decades, income inequality, issues with women,

child care burdens, unpaid labor. I tried to show him that that was the logic, but I tried to also emotionally appeal by talking about people him and I know and socialized with and had had good times with. I would point out, you know, the work that they do and their brilliance and their values as human beings to society. And on the other hand, because of, you know, if they're trans or gay or a person of color or they have a chronic illness or a disability, the challenges that they face, there really shouldn't be a deciding factor in them being able to lead a good life. And was he ever receptive to these messages? No, it was like screaming at a brick wall. That's really how I felt. At any point, do you get really mad at him?

Oh, yeah. I would cry, which is so stupid, because what I should have done is left. But I just would burst into tears, because I guess once you get close to somebody, I couldn't understand. burst into tears because I guess once you get close to somebody, I couldn't understand. I was younger, I was quite a bit younger, but younger me couldn't understand how somebody could be so full of hate. Back then, another reason that Priya couldn't accept that Steve really believed this stuff was because he was choosing to be with her. How could he be in love with a South Asian woman and talk about their future together if he truly believed these racist conspiracy theories? But then she realized he meant it.

We were supposed to go to some event related to my culture. And he first told me whether he has to dress up like Justin Trudeau did on his trip to India. And then he asked me what I'm wearing. And when I showed him a sari, he said it looked like a bed sheet. And then a couple of nights later, we were having a conversation about, you know, what people named their kids. And he randomly said that he doesn't want our kids to have, quote unquote, cab driver-y names.

And then he, I looked mortified. I was like, well, first of all, there's nothing wrong with being a cab driver. Secondly names. And then he, I looked mortified. I was like, well, first of all, there's nothing wrong with being a cab driver. Secondly, then is my name problematic? And he just said, it's nice, but I would never name my child like that because it's not normal. It's not Canadian. And at that point, I just thought like the bottom started to fall out at that point. Yeah. Tell me, tell me a little bit more about that, what that felt like for you as a woman of color. It felt painful. I've always seen being in Canada as a place where I've been really welcome and accepted,

and I don't really, on a day-to-day basis, I just didn't think about my race too much, you know, when interacting with people. I always felt like they're definitely issues we need to work on as a country but I felt secure in my identity as a Canadian and I also felt proud in my identity of being of South Asian extraction and after that comment I started to feel so uncomfortable like I could never like is it true like are people just accepting me because they're being polite? And I suddenly started to feel very self-conscious of my status as a woman of color in Canada.

And it was so irritating and painful. And it was sad at times. I felt extremely brokenhearted. It was something that, you know, even on the day of my birthday, he continued to send me articles by Spandrel and Minitius Moldtag or Curtis Yarvin and argue about this. And this JP Rushden article about, you know, certain men of certain ethnicities having like weaker grip strength. And I just remember, I don't know where I was. I was somewhere in the city and I burst into tears on my phone. Just, I just felt claustrophobic and sad.

By the time we were nearing the end of the relationship i was googling situations like this online and realizing i'm not the only one and there's other people sliding into this weird alt-right dark web rabbit hole online i started to wonder okay like everybody can't have a mental health problem like this or it can't be the same mental health problem like is this a cult is this a conspiracy but that was near the very end that i started to realize, like, this is like a thing of our times. This is not an isolated case of somebody just getting out of touch with reality. Priya and Steve, they finally broke up in the spring of 2019. You know, hindsight

for all of us looking back on our relationships is, you know, it's totally different, right? Now that you look back on this relationship, how do you think about it now? I think we were two kids

caught in the middle of a very dark time in Western democratic societies. On one hand, I also think it was a complete waste of time. And literally the moment, you know, he messaged me about the kids in cages not being bad. Like, I just should have dipped at that moment. But I also do think that the story that went down between me and him is something that has been going on across Europe and North America over the past few years of the last decade in not just romantic relationships, but other configurations, people and their family members too. And I just wish I'd known that this was going on with other people because I know it did deeply affect me and it affected my ability to trust people around me

too. Because I was like, what if my other Caucasian or male friends feel that way about me in Canada as a woman of color trying to pursue my dreams, and they just don't say it. Steve got back in touch with her over text in late 2020. He is not working in the field he trained for. If anything, his employment seems precarious, and he seems socially isolated. He lives in a more isolated area, and he has really hunkered down in his beliefs. And he denies COVID. He thinks it's a plot to make sure that Donald Trump didn't win the election. He thinks the vaccine is a conspiracy. He's definitely gone down the rabbit hole. It's just disturbing, honestly, what Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

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So look, we're telling you Priya's story today because just like she said, this is not an isolated incident. In a study from Carleton University last spring, half the Canadians they surveyed believed at least one conspiracy theory about COVID-19. And in the US, an NPR Ipsos poll last month found that 17% of respondents believed the QAnon conspiracy theory that, quote, a group of Satan-worshipping elites who run a child sex ring are trying to control our politics and our media, and another 37% said that they just really weren't sure. Maybe you already know someone who fervently believes in conspiracy theories, and if you don't, you might in the near future. It's so common, in fact, that it's happened to Priya twice. Yeah, it's one of my extended family members, also in Canada.

twice. Yeah, it's one of my extended family members also in Canada. So she is of the same ethnic and cultural background as I am. I was not expecting that. Her political beliefs were in line with mine. I would say on the Canadian political spectrum, we were both center left. We didn't even discuss politics because we just agreed on everything. And how did you watch her change as kovid started her lifestyle became extremely isolated the job that she worked is a front-facing role and the hours became hectic and and randomly taken away. And the CERB kicked in and the stress of working in an environment, I think, where you know you're being exposed to people. That really started getting to her. And then she started complaining about all the small businesses closing down.

all businesses closing down and then suddenly out of nowhere i started seeing posts on social media about bill gates and a vaccine conspiracy it was just talking about the fact that bill gates is trying to microchip everybody through what's going to be the covid vaccine so the government can track us and i just sat there thinking like what and it got worse. Then we went from that to Donald Trump being the only person who's saving us from this George Soros, Bill Gates conspiracy with the quote unquote, great reset. putting up a stand between the capitalist overlords' efforts to just shut down small businesses and put us in almost like a martial state where we have no freedom to go about. Priya works as a researcher in public health now, and so these COVID vaccine conspiracies really got to her. And then there was her relatives, we'll call her Aditi, her sudden deep concern about child trafficking. There was never any like comments about who's being trafficked and where they're being trafficked from, just like this pedophile cabal, like of the core beliefs of the QAnon conspiracy, that Donald Trump is trying to save the world from this giant child trafficking ring run by Democratic elites and celebrities. So this set off real alarm bells. But it would just show up that like Trump and people who are part of like the MAGA group are the ones who are also stopping the child trafficking. That seems to be something this George Soros, Bill Gates, whatever, like, I don't even know what they're called, really.

But these overlords are trying to do along with the 5G microchipping vaccine hodgepodge of strange beliefs. Seeing a second person she loves get sucked into these conspiracies obviously brought up a lot of painful feelings for Priya. But she thought, okay, I've already had this crash course in this. I know what didn't work to try to pull someone out of conspiracy land. And this time, I need to find a different approach than the one that I took with my ex. I was never able to really get through and I never really tried to get through the emotional underpinning of why he believed these things and

why he had such a disgust and a repulsion towards anything having to do with equity. and a repulsion towards anything having to do with equity. This is a person, I do want to be very clear, who doesn't talk about his feelings. He doesn't discuss his emotions. He doesn't discuss his personal life. So it's not like answering that question would have been easy. But full disclosure, I never pushed for it either because I was just so politically incensed

and repulsed by the things that he was saying. 23-year-old me was like, it's wrong. It's just wrong. How can you believe this? That's disgusting. I never want to hear that out of your mouth again. It kept me from really trying to peel back the layers of psychologically what might have been driving this. And I think what I would have done with my ex, had he let me into that emotional, softer side of his existence and had I, you know, pursued that side of his existence, I would have told him, like, you know what? Like, it does suck. It's like it's so scary to be finishing your program and not knowing what's happening after. your program and not knowing what's happening after like it's like finding a job is hard like i would have tried to relate to him and shown him that you can feel these feelings and you can deal with them proactively and these aren't bad feelings to have without becoming a fascist Unlike Steve, Priya says Aditi is still as kind and caring as she was before she started believing these conspiracy theories.

And she is open to talking about her feelings. So that's what Priya is focusing on. I check in regularly and, or when she checks in with me and we just talk about the things we missed doing before COVID. And I tell her that I miss the same things too. I miss going to the same places. I miss the same hobbies, the same outings, the same, you you know carefreeness and you know we're not getting this back until covid is not looming over our heads is this the sort of damocles just kind of spread like a net over everybody that's all i keep telling her i keep telling her that i feel the same frustration she feels that i'm not going to deny that the lifestyle changes have been severe and

unpleasant and very, very prolonged. I try to tell anybody I meet, regardless of where they are, about believing whether COVID is real or not, I try to tell them that, like, hey, like, you're obviously feeling this way because this sucks. And like, I'm also going to tell you that it sucks. She's trying to hold out faith here that since these beliefs clearly arose with the pandemic, that they can disappear with it too. And I'm really hoping that once COVID is over, and now that Trump wasn't elected, and hopefully things will return to normal at some point, she will snap out of it. In the meantime, she talks to her relative about how she's planning to get the vaccine herself and why she trusts news outlets or organizations like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

When other relatives are popping off in the comment section of Aditi's Facebook posts, Priya stays silent. It sounds like I'm one of the few people after the things and I'm not bragging or anything. And I'm not bragging or anything. I'm just saying that it just has happened that I'm one of the few people she's speaking to after she went public with her views on Facebook who doesn't agree with her views. And I think that if I were to get antagonistic and combative and unpleasant, she will stop talking to me. And then she will be more isolated in these views. views. And it's just between like the way the internet is these days with all of its algorithms for auto curating content for users and the isolation of COVID, she will dig in even deeper. Interestingly, Priya has seen signs that her method might actually be working. Since she works in a health field, Priya is getting vaccinated soon. And they've talked

about it recently. And she's she's coming around i mean she's still a little cautious about the vaccine but she's also being much more open to it now i think because i've stayed calm throughout the process from the moment i knew i'd be getting the vaccine kind of earlier than everybody else to um i'm very close to receiving it now so she she we actually had a reasonable conversation she's not really as as hesitant about the whole thing anymore and she's um she's is a real change in tone and how she's talking about things like the vaccine and like therapeutics for covid and the whole whole thing overall so i think like that is actually working priya does want to be really clear here that she's

not saying that this would work for everyone or that her relatives apparent change of heart here is all thanks to her she's a much more um in a lot of ways a much more open-minded amiable easier to talk to person than my ex was in the sense that she doesn't go around seeking conflict or antagonistic discourse um but of course had i been too militant too aggressive too much of an activist while talking to her and cut her out of the conversation i don't think we'd be where we are with this today so there is something to be said for keeping them in the loop and reaching out and keeping that door open for dialogue. and offensive, that you really are struggling, you really are suffering, you really are starting to feel unsafe and insecure, I think you have every right to kind of cut them off at that point. I mean, I feel like with my ex, in some ways, once I realized things weren't going to improve, I should have done that sooner, because the stuff he said really did incur a great personal cost to my personal well-being for a while. But, you know, if the person is just like, if they're just saying things you don't agree with,

I would recommend not cutting them out and continuing to have those conversations. All right, so that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.