Front Burner - Erin O’Toole turfed as Conservative Party leader

Episode Date: February 3, 2022

Erin O’Toole is no longer leader of the Conservative Party after a caucus vote on Wednesday afternoon: 73 members of the 119-member caucus voted for his removal. Candice Bergen will take over leadership of the party in the interim. The ouster comes just 18 months after the last Conservative leadership race brought O’Toole to power. Today, CBC’s John Paul Tasker explains what happened, how the party got to this point, and the challenges ahead

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. Serving Canada has always been the honour of my life, whether it is in a flight suit or in a business suit, and I will never stop serving Canada.

Merci beaucoup. Well, it is official. Erin O'Toole is out as the leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. And the party's deputy leader, Candice Bergen, is stepping in for the interim. Today, my colleague JP Tasker is here to explain what happened yesterday, how the party got to this point, and the many challenges ahead. Hey, JP, great to have you. Hey, Jamie, it's great to be back on the pod. Thanks.

So it has been an eventful few days. On Monday night, we got news that this vote on the future of Aaron O'Toole's leadership was coming. And here we are talking on Wednesday afternoon, and he is no longer the leader. So what do we know about how this vote went down? Well, it's actually a really shocking result, even though I knew it was coming. You know, I had sources telling me last Friday night that there was this well-organized move to oust Mr. O'Toole that the anti-O'Toole forces in the Conservative caucus had collected enough signatures to force a secret ballot vote. But I almost didn't believe them, you know, because we're not that far out

from the last election. He's only been the leader for 18 months. I couldn't believe really that they had enough MPs that were willing to vote him out. But my sources kept insisting that is exactly what was happening. And sure enough, that that came to pass. At the end of the day, it really wasn't that close a vote, Jamie, they really trounced him. And he resigned this afternoon after that caucus vote. So we're on to the next thing. We're out to find a replacement for Mr. O'Toole. Right, right. So of 119 Conservative MPs, 73 voted to remove, 45 voted to keep him. So, you know, you say it's not close. It was it was not close. You know, you mentioned that you were surprised at this attempt to oust him.

What do you know now about when members of the conservative caucus first really started to question whether he was the guy they wanted at the helm after all. Yeah, I should say I'm not necessarily surprised that they were angry with him and that they did want to get him out. I just didn't think it would all come together so quickly and that it would happen in a minority parliament situation like this, because it is so dangerous for the party to plunge themselves into a leadership election when we are in a minority parliament and an election could come at any time. But yeah, I mean, I've been talking to people for months about this. Really, I'll pinpoint one moment in particular when the wheels kind of started to fall off the bus, and that was April 2021.

That's when he did the carbon tax flip-flop. I put forward a plan last week that will end Mr. Trudeau's carbon tax and put forward a plan that puts consumers, Canadians, small business owners, farmers in the driver's seat. And the fact that not one penny of the price on carbon goes to Ottawa makes it not a tax.

We've had some people say... That was like a big broken promise. You know, he ran as a true blue conservative leader. It's time for a true blue conservative who can win the next election and get our country back on track. He maligned his main opponent, Peter McKay, as someone who was essentially a liberal light. He kind of attacked Mr. McKay's plans on that climate issue. And then one of his first acts as leader is to bring out an environmental plan that includes a price on carbon. The caucus at the time was shocked. They really did not see that coming.

This is a party that has railed against carbon taxes for the better part of 10 years. You know, the job killing carbon taxes, they've always called it. And then all of a sudden they have to go out and sell this to their constituents. So, you know, where was that true blue leader that we were promised? A lot of caucus members were saying, you know, a lot of party members who had voted for him over a more red Tory-like guy in Mr. McKay, you know. So the anger started to mount over that. And then really during the campaign, that's when everything really came to a head for a lot of people. And that is because he flip-flopped on so many issues. It wasn't just the carbon tax thing, of course. He essentially campaigned on

keeping the liberal laws on assault-style firearms, which is really a no-no in this party, of course. He backed away on a promise to quickly balance the budget. He waffled on conscience rights for medical professionals that don don't want to perform abortion. So people started to ask, you know, who is this guy? Do we even really know who Aaron O'Toole is? And that's just started to get the ball rolling towards this result today. People are saying, you know, we can do better with somebody who isn't as tarnished, you know, who doesn't have this record of being a flip-flop on some really core issues that matter to the Conservative Party. Let me be clear. An O'Toole government will repeal C-71, C-21, and the May 2020 Order in Council. I will review existing firearms legislation to ensure it focuses on dealing with criminals

rather than making life more difficult for law-abiding firearms owners. So I want to make my position on firearms perfectly clear. First, the ban on assault weapons will remain in place. Second, the present ban on a number of other firearms that were reclassified in 2020 will remain in place. Third, we will conduct a... When news that this leadership vote had been triggered, we very quickly heard that this was coming from the social conservative wing of the party and that it was about conversion therapy and Aaron O'Toole's support for LGBTQ rights. And can you tell me more about that? Because from what you're saying, I'm gathering that there were other reasons too. you're saying, I'm gathering that there were other reasons too. Well, yeah. So Mr. O'Toole really did pivot to the center when he became leader. He really was more of a moderate voice, especially on social issues. And that did anger a lot of social conservatives in the caucus, you know,

anti-abortion activists and the like were frustrated that Mr. O'Toole was shutting down debate on these issues. And so, yeah, the people around Erin were telling me Monday night that this is really just what they called a coup attempt by social conservatives. They said social conservatives were not happy that Mr. O'Toole let the conversion therapy ban bill to pass through Parliament unanimously last fall. Mr. Speaker, I'm asking for unanimous consent to adopt the following motion. A surprise move from the Conservatives to fast-track the ban on conversion therapy. There being no dissenting

voice, I declare the motion carried. Actually, one of the leading opponents of that conversion therapy, Bill Garnett-Jenis, was away on a trip in Latvia at the time. And so the people around Mr. O'Toole were saying, Mr. Jenis is pushing this now. He's people around Mr. O'Toole were saying Mr. Janus is pushing this now he's pushing for Mr. O'Toole's ouster because he's frustrated over his stance on gay rights, the social conservatives are mobilizing. Mr. Janus denied that later on in the statement, but Mr. O'Toole's team really wanted to give the impression that this was essentially a movement led exclusively by social conservatives who were upset that he wouldn't take up their position on abortion, on gay marriage and the like. I would say that's probably a little bit of a red herring, though. I honestly don't think

the conversion therapy really is the reason why we're in the position we're in now. I just don't think that's all that accurate. But I will say, Jamie, social conservatives are thrilled today, right? Anti-abortion activists are celebrating this decisive defeat. They are so happy. They did not like Mr. O'Toole dragging the party to the center on social issues. already promising to raise money, put forward candidates and have their say in this upcoming leadership election race. I saw one MP who had supported O'Toole in the past, Bob Benson, in Calgary speak out before the vote. And his complaints, they didn't sound like social conservative ones to me. He also seemed to allude to vaccine mandates. And I heard another MP, Mark Strahl, bring up the vaccine mandates. I think vaccine mandates, the response to the pandemic will play a critical role in how the next leader views how we should respond to the curtailment of freedoms of Canadians and what changes should be made to the Liberals' botched response on that.

We've seen Aaron O'Toole try to walk this very fine line with the trucker protests. Truckers show up on Parliament Hill, sir. Will you meet them? Yes or no? We've been meeting with them for the last few months, and I will continue to meet this week and into the weekend with truckers and with the industry, both individual people suffering, but also the industry. Three weeks ago. But I'm talking about the so-called freedom convo. Which would actually tackle the supply chain shortage. While others in his party have been more full-throated in their support. The government would respect the thousands of people who are fighting for their livelihoods right now, who are trying to do the best to get this country back on track. Do you think that played into this ouster at all, the vaccine mandate issue?

Yeah, I think it was one factor. I think that Mr. O'Toole was not all that clear where he stood on vaccine mandates during the last election campaign. He kind of waffled on that as well. You can add that to the list of things that he kind of flip-flopped on. He eventually came out against vaccine mandates for the federal public service and for the traveling public, but it took him a little while to get there. And I think a lot of people within caucus wanted him to be even more forceful in his opposition to vaccine mandates. I mean, this is something that really preoccupies the conservative caucus and the conservative

membership. They don't want to see what they call a heavy-handed approach to pandemic management. They think that it's time to bring an end to the more heavy-handed approach to COVID-19. They want to start to treat it more as an endemic as opposed to a pandemic. So they're friendly to that. And I think Mr. O'Toole wasn't really that voice that they were looking for on this. He wasn't really tough enough on it. And you saw he really twisted himself into a pretzel right on this trucker issue, this convoy that's going on in Ottawa. Initially, he was saying, you know, I'm not going to meet with the truckers that are opposed to the vaccine mandate for cross-border travelers.

Travis, let me be perfectly clear. As I just said in French, it's not for the leader of the opposition or political party to attend a protest on the hill or a convoy. It's up to politicians to advocate for solutions. He said, you know, it's not for the leader of the opposition to show up at a protest like this on Parliament Hill. And then facing blowback in his caucus, he, a couple days later, said, you know what, I actually am going to meet with truckers. And I am concerned about some of the people that could lose their jobs as a result of all this. Canada doesn't function as a trading nation without them. Fitting Canadians against one another is un-Canadian. But

just watch as Justin Trudeau and the Liberal Party try to demonize these hardworking men and women. We need to show truckers that we appreciate their hard work and that we're going to stand up for their right to peacefully protest. You know, to the very end, Mr. O'Toole was going back and forth, shifting his positions on issues that really do matter to the caucus. Do you think this trucker convey, the trucker protest had anything to do with why this vote happened now? And I know you mentioned earlier in the conversation, you're surprised that this is happening now. And I guess I'm also just trying to understand why now. No, I don't think so. I don't think the trucker convoy

had anything directly to do with this. I think actually it's for all the reasons I mentioned. People had just lost faith with him and the people who are organizing the anti-O-Tool movement, they had collected enough signatures to prompt the secret ballot vote and they were just waiting to get the right number of people on side to actually cast a ballot against him during this caucus meeting. So they had actually gotten up to the number they needed last week. And so the trucker convoy really wasn't

a major motivating factor. I think what brought some people on side in the last minute was actually a caucus meeting last week when a former MP from the Edmonton area, James Cumming, he presented his report on the 2021 election campaign on what went down, why they lost again, why Justin Trudeau could win for a third time. And a lot of caucus were frustrated with that report. And they felt like Mr. O'Toole did not take enough ownership for what went wrong during that campaign, that he really blamed his staff, that they kind of rehashed all debates over the NECOB ban from 2015 and the barbaric cultural practices hotline that Harper and former conservative leaders had floated. They felt like Mr. O'Toole just wasn't kind of owning up to that.

You know, he himself had some failures. He had some failings in that campaign and he was kind of blaming everybody else. On election night, he said he had, he would learn some of the lessons from this campaign. And to some people, it's like, maybe he didn't learn anything. And maybe we're just actually better off dumping him and moving on to somebody else. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about

money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So back to the present, back to Wednesday evening, what are we hearing from the party about what they're feeling about what went down today? Starting with O'Toole himself, you know, obviously this was a very rough day for him. Yeah, I mean, it's devastating for him, obviously. He's only been in the job, like I said, for 18 months.

obviously. He's only been in the job, like I said, for 18 months. He came to power at the height of COVID-19, right, in 2020, or just after the height of COVID-19 as we were heading into the second wave. You know, he didn't really get much of a chance to introduce himself to Canadians. He did not travel very extensively during the election campaign. He really did not get to put his stamp on the party, right? And he didn't really have much of a chance. He only had a year in the job before they headed into a federal election campaign, which is really tough. He was not a household name before that campaign started last fall. And, you know, there's really a new standard set for the party that it's essentially one and done. If the leader can't win in a federal election campaign, you're out and we're moving on to the next one. And I think that that's hard to digest for Mr. O'Toole, who really did want to stay on and lead the fight. And,

you know, I was talking to his staff up until last night's morning. They did not think that there were enough MPs that would vote against him. They were not prepared for this. I'm going to be honest with you. They thought that they would actually be able to pull it off in the end. But Mr. O'Toole, from what I've been told by sources, gave a speech on Wednesday morning that did not go over well with caucus. And that really pushed some of the people who were on the fence to join the anti-O'Toole movement. What did he say that I guess took people off?

Well, he was quite combative. You know, it was similar to what happened last week when the Cummings report came out on the election. You know, there wasn't a lot of ownership. He was lashing out at some people who he thought were behind this movement. You know, some of those folks like Garnett Jenis and the social conservatives that I mentioned earlier. He felt like they had put him in an impossible position. They should have given him more time to try and make a go of it. Interesting. It might be worth noting that it's a secret ballot too, right? So I do wonder if some people might have been thinking,

you know, you take a swing at the king and you miss, that sucks. But you take a swing at the king and you miss, he won't know. Right. And well, we know, and we know for a fact, there were people who were telling Mr. O'Toole to his face that they were with him. And then they went and voted the opposite direction. They actually voted to dump him. So there were people who were telling him straight to his face, I'm with you all the way, man. And then when he actually got to cast that ballot, you know, they gave him the boot. And that's politics.

He did put out a statement on Wednesday afternoon, a video statement. It was an honour of a lifetime to lead the party of Sir John A. Macdonald and Confederation, of Robert Borden. He also said it's a dire moment in history and that we're divided. So my message to my party is the same I will give to the Prime Minister and members of Parliament on all sides of the House of Commons. to the Prime Minister and members of Parliament on all sides of the House of Commons. Audi ultimum partum. Hear the other side. Listen to all voices, not just the echoes from your own tribe.

Realize that our country is divided and people are worried. Work together. And I wonder what you made of that statement. Yeah, so two things. I think Mr. O'Toole genuinely believes that a lot of this division is tied to the prime minister. That the prime minister has politicized the pandemic. He has politicized vaccines. He has stirred up all of this fracas that we're seeing going on in Ottawa right now. I actually genuinely believe that the Conservatives pin a lot of blame on the Prime Minister personally for all this. And so I think

he was saying to the PM on the way out, listen, you can't just stay in your echo chamber. You can't just listen to the people around you and in your party. You actually have to extend an arm to folks who are struggling right now, who are not all that happy with this mandate, who are worried about losing their jobs. I also think the message was directed at his own caucus, including those social conservatives I mentioned. He said, this party has to be a governing force. It can't just be an intellectual force. We can't just have ideas. We actually need to win and we actually need to be in power.

This country needs a conservative party that is both an intellectual force and a governing force. Ideology without power is vanity. Seeking power without ideology is hubris. Canadians deserve a government that delivers You know, we don't want to become, as Mr. O'Toole said earlier in the week, the NDP

of the right. We don't just want to be a protest party where we put forward some ideas that might be good for the governing party. We actually want to get a chance to get the keys to this place. And so I think he was saying, you might have ousted me, you might have rejected my more moderate form of conservatism, but we really need to not just let ideology get in the way. We can't have an ideological purity test for every leader that comes after me. We need to also balance some of those interests. We need to take our principles and maybe put a little water in our wine sometimes

to make it more palatable to the wider electorate. You know, just because you win the conservative base, you win with party members doesn't mean much if you can't win in a general election. And so Mr. O'Toole, that was his parting thought, you know, let's, let's just be willing to compromise at some point. Yeah, you know, I find, I just will go back to the point you were making about division. I find this conversation super interesting and one that we could do, well, we will and have done podcasts on. I think some people would say that the country is actually not divided, that more than 80% of people are vaccinated and that the conservative party is the one that's divided. But that really depends

on who you talk to. What have we heard from those who have worked to oust o'toole like what are they saying now that he's officially out well i will say they've been fairly gracious in victory uh garnett genovese was essentially calling mr o'toole and his and his staff liars earlier in the week you know trying to say that they were twisting his record on uh conversion therapy but today he was saying you know i'm really say that they were twisting his record on conversion therapy. But today he was saying, you know, I'm really thankful for Mr. O'Toole's service. I want to thank Mr. O'Toole for his service to our party and for his service to our country. I'm thankful to his wife, Rebecca, and his children. And he was a good leader and it's time to move on. So I think what

they're saying is, you know, we've won this battle, but we really need to start talking about how we're going to unite as a party. There were a lot of calls for that. There was a lot of claims that people are willing to put aside past divisions and try and come together as one conservative party. But I think a lot of reporters today were trying to call their bluff on that because I think it is fair to say that this party is quite divided, that there are cleavages, regional cleavages. There's East versus West.

There's moderate versus the really right wing. And it's going to be really hard for whoever the next leader is to bring them all together. I mean, it's getting kind of crowded under that big blue tent, right? And it's hard for them all to coexist together. Mr. Scheer, Andrew Scheer, who was a social conservative, couldn't make it work. And Mr. O'Toole, who is certainly more of a moderate, also couldn't pull it off. So it's going to be a tough job. And I don't think you're ever going to please anybody. And you might just need more of a, you might just need another leader who's better equipped to deal with it all.

And people are really now looking for a Stephen Harper type figure who was able to do that when he was in power and when he was a leader of the opposition he kind of kept it all in line and it's proven difficult for every other leader after him to do that all right so I feel like the next very obvious question then is uh who's it gonna be well it's hard to say. I mean, I think certainly one name that will emerge is Pierre Polyev, who has become a very vocal force within the party. He is certainly active on social media. He is beloved by many members of the base. He has taken a hard line on COVID-19 restrictions, which is a winner right now with the party members. Governments have taken advantage of COVID to try and take away our freedom and give themselves more power, starting with Trudeau, who's deputy PM. He obviously had a prominent position on the front bench and Mr. O'Toole's a shadow cabinet. As the finance critic, he's hammered the liberals every day. He is kind of celebrated by people that hate the liberal party because he's just so vicious, you know, and that's appealing to some people. He is certainly someone who would

have appeal with some of the more right wing elements of the party. I think social conservatives would find him palatable as well. So he's someone who could emerge. Another name that is being bandied about today is Patrick Brown, who's the current mayor of Brampton, Ontario, who was a former member of parliament here in Ottawa. He was also, of course, the leader of the Progressive Conservative Party of Ontario. He's a more moderate force, I would say. He supported the carbon tax when he was the leader of the PCs. He has a huge following in many of the ethnic and cultural communities of the province and of the country, really. I mean, that's how he won the provincial leadership campaign is he had so many supporters in the South Asian community.

He's a really great organizer. And that's something that's really a force to be reckoned with. So add him to the list. All right. So JP, before we go, I wonder how you see this internal discord that we've talked about affecting federal politics for the next little while, right? Because we are still in a minority government situation with the conservatives as the official opposition. But if they're distracted by their own, you know,

leadership race, might that have an impact on how the Trudeau liberals govern for the next little while? Could they push through more of their agenda while the Conservatives get their own house in order, or I guess, try to get their own house in order? Well, it certainly does not put the Conservatives in a good spot for the next little while. It's actually, you know, bad news, right? Tony Clement, who was a former MP, former cabinet minister under Stephen Harper, he tweeted Wednesday afternoon that he was distraught, that he was disappointed in the caucus. And he's really fearful that the party's divided, demoralized. They're so far from being ready to govern. He said he called it a sad state of affairs that needs to be rectified quickly. So I mean, there are people who are not all that happy that this has

gone down today, you know, they feel like it isn't a good idea to prompt a leadership race in a minority parliament at this point in time when an election could come at any point. If liberals are feeling really vindictive, they could call it when there's an interim leader, right? Or they could call it a month after there's a new permanent leader. They're not beholden to the Conservatives. So it could be the same issue for this next leader that Mr. O'Toole faced. They might not have a lot of time to introduce themselves to Canadians ahead of the next election call. So I think a lot of Liberals are popping champagne bottles today. Let's be really clear about that. They're really happy that this turmoil is going on in the party. And it certainly, as it stands right now, looks good for them.

But the Conservatives could pick a really strong leader. The country may be tired of Justin Trudeau and the Liberals the next time that election comes around and they could be swept to power. So who's to say, really, as we sit here only hours after this all went down. Davey, thanks for this, as always, and look forward to chatting again soon. Thanks so much, Jamie. It's great to be on the pod. All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.