Front Burner - Errol Morris on Charles Manson, mind control and the CIA

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

On August 9th and 10th of 1969, a series of brutal murders took place in Los Angeles. Seven people were killed, including actress Sharon Tate, who was married to director Roman Polanski.Members of the Manson family, a kind of cult, were found guilty for the crimes. Manson and four of his followers were convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to death.The prosecutor at the time said that Manson wanted to start a race war and trigger the end of the world. For decades, that was how the story went.But a new film by legendary documentary filmmaker Errol Morris asks the audience to reconsider that. It's inspired by a book called "CHAOS: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties" by journalist Tom O'Neill, which makes the case that Manson might have been connected to the CIA's mind control program, MK-Ultra.Errol Morris talks to host Jayme Poisson about "Chaos: The Manson Murders", unpacking the many theories about Charles Manson, and the culture of paranoia from that era of American history. The film is out on Netflix now.For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

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and exciting cities. It's the sort of city you could visit countless times and always explore and experience something new. There's Business Class and then there's Emirates Business Class. Book now on emirates.ca. This is a CBC Podcast. On August 9th and 10th of 1969, a series of brutal murders took place in LA. Two of the bodies were found inside the house, one in the vehicle, and two on the front lawn. When police arrived, they found the telephones and electricity lines cut.

The bodies have been dead about 12 hours. One officer summed up the murders when he said, In all my years, I have never seen anything like this before. Actress Sharon Tate, who was married to director Roman Polanski and eight months pregnant, was one of the victims. You might remember seeing her story fictionalized by Quentin Tarantino in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. While the police admitted they had no suspects in the Bell Air massacre, there were two more murders 15 miles away in the Silver Lake section of Los Angeles.

Market owner Leo LaBianca and his wife Rosemary were found by their children stabbed and mutilated. Bianca and his wife Rosemary were found by their children stabbed and mutilated. Members of the Manson family, a kind of cult who were living in a place called Spahn Ranch, were found guilty for the crimes. Manson and four of his followers were convicted of first-degree murder. The prosecutor at the time said that Manson wanted to start a race war and trigger the end of the world. For decades, that is how the story went. But a new film by legendary documentary filmmaker Errol Morris asks you to reconsider that. It's inspired by a book called Chaos, Charles Manson, the CIA, and the secret history of the 60s by journalist Tom O'Neill.

In it, O'Neill makes the case that Charles Manson might have been connected to one of the CIA's secret programs from the Cold War era, MKUltra. A program that tried to figure out methods of mind control and did so by performing experiments on patients using psychedelic drugs and sensory deprivation techniques. I spoke to Errol Morris about his latest film, Chaos, the Manson Murders, which is out on Netflix now. Mr. Morris, thank you so much for coming onto the show. Thank you for inviting me.

Such a treat for us. I'm a big fan of your work. Tom O'Neill's book makes a very different case than what people typically know about Charles Manson, the narrative that he compelled his drug-fueled followers to brutally murder seven people to start a race war, right? The theory was popularized by Helter Skelter, the bestselling book by the prosecutor on Manson's case. What did you find compelling about O'Neill's theory? What propelled you to make a film

about it? I wouldn't say that Tom O'Neill has one theory. He had one goal, but many theories. Fair, fair. One goal was to discredit the argument that had been made by the prosecutor, Vincent Bouliosi, in his bestselling book, Helter Skelter. The Beatles' white album, the race war theory, the Bottomless Pit. In Manson's mind, the term Helter Skelter meant the black man rising up against the white establishment and murdering the entire white race, with the exception of him and his followers who intended to escape from Helter Skelter by going to the desert and

living in the Bottomless Pit. At least that's what he told his family. He got much of this from Revelation 9, which is the last book in the bottomless pit, at least that's what he told his family. He got much of this from Revelation 9, which is the last book in the New Testament. He got some of his other philosophies from the Beatles. And on and on and on and on. It reminds us that Buleosi had a job to do. He needed to secure not just convictions, but death sentences for Charles Manson and many members of his cult, the family. And in order to do that, he needed to link Manson with all of the crimes, even though

for many of them, Manson wasn't there. How do you get a death sentence? How do you get a conviction for somebody who has committed a crime but wasn't at the crime scene itself? A tall order. And ultimately, Bouliosi was successful. He got death sentences for virtually everybody. The only problem is that his theory of the case may have been convincing as storytelling to a jury, but might not be true. And what was it that made you think that it might not be true? The whole bulliocy argument always struck me as being far-fetched. And Tom O'Neill asks a fundamental question about this case.

How is this man, Charles Manson, able to convince people to kill? And to do so with no remorse, and to do so so easily, right? I wonder if we could go through, for people who might not have yet seen your film, and they should, some of the different elements of- Tell everybody to see it.

Yeah, it's actually, it's really, really interesting. I watched it last night. First of all, the film walks us through how Manson was very much known to police before the murders. And I wonder if you could just tell me what kind of history he had with the police and why that was surprising. He had been in a whole number of prisons, spent most of his life in prison. In fact, he often argued that he was better

off in prison. He rather enjoyed being in prison and was happy to go back to prison. Once the death sentence had been lifted by various court decisions, he spent really the rest of his life in prison. One question that Tom O'Neill keeps asking, after Manson got out, he committed one parole violation after another, a whole succession of parole violations that should have landed him back in prison, but didn't. The parole officer just let him go, essentially let him go to commit crimes, more and more serious crimes. Why? What was that about? And just what's the implication there? That he was let to rip? The implication, the inference that you're supposed to make, I'm not sure that I make that same inference, but the inference that Tom O'Neill wants you to make is that the government was behind all of this. That this ultra-secret program, MKUltra, had programmed Manson.

There were these research scientists who were working secretly for the government. One of the most bizarre episodes in CIA history. Planting false memories in people without their awareness. He was a product of some kind of government conspiracy to implant false memories, to program human behavior, to create a Manchurian candidate, someone programmed to kill. Yeah. Am I fair to say also gave him the skills to convince his followers to do the same? You can add that to it.

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is Manson's parole officer, the guy that just lets him off on all of these violations. He has an office at a clinic in Haight-Ashbury in San Francisco where Manson and members of his family went to regularly. And around that time, there was also this scientist, right? Louis Jolly West, who was also hanging out at this clinic and was studying mind control.

And can you just tell me a little bit about this part of it? Well, Jolly West becomes this pivotal figure because we know, in good measure because of research done by Tom O'Neill, that he was working for the CIA and he was involved with MKUltra research. It's really an interesting thing about history in general, and certainly in investigating any kind of a crime. I was a private detective for years, by the way. You're depending on oral testimony, written records, and so on and so forth. But what if all those written records are destroyed? And the enormous difficulty,

I made a whole movie involving MK Ultra for Netflix called Wormwood. What if the CIA and MK Ultra go to unusual lengths to destroy all records of what they had done and who they were? What if they tried to obliterate their own existence, like lifting up a magic slate and everything becomes erased. So Tom O'Neill's ultimate problem is how do you make these connections stick? Yeah.

Yeah, you have the suggestion of this and that. You have Jolly West's presence at the HaydAshbury Free Clinic, but no record of any kind of interaction with Charles Manson himself. Right. He can never put them in the same room together. That's correct. Yeah.

Tantalizing, but somehow not quite within his grasp. Yeah. Can you talk to me a little bit about LSD and psychoactive drugs and how, of course, they played a big role in MKUltra. But, you know, another argument O'Neill is putting forward here is the fact that LSD was commonly used by Manson family members as well, right? It's like just another similarity between the CIA program and what was going on on Spahn Ranch. But of course, a lot of people are using hallucinogens of all kinds of drugs of one kind or another. Good point. Yeah. And I've thought a lot over the years about conspiracy theories. Conspiracy is hopeful. It's hopeful because it tells us there's a rhyme and reason to

things. Ah, this is weird, but it happened because people programmed it to happen. People inspired to make it happen. It's part of a plan, a program, a plot. In the Manson case, we have so many actors, so many various people, prosecutors, lawyers, criminal defendants, and on and on and on and on. When you think of the just sheer volume of material that has been written about this case over the years. Have I read all of it? I haven't. There's just too much of it. It's just immense. But to learn about Bouliosi, I think it's one of the great virtues of Tom's book is that it's the portrait of a crazy person. Bouliosi was kind of out of his mind. And although he was successful in winning the case and in creating this bestseller,

a book that sold literally millions of copies, the theory that he had for why Manson did what he did, I don't think holds water. And just for our listeners, why does that theory not hold water? It's not clear that Manson, although maybe he believed in a possible race war, that that was the primary motivation for what he did. I suppose if I had to pick a reason, and also we like to think that there is one unitary reason that we can muster, say, oh, it all happened because of this. Or it all happened because of that. Another great candidate is his failed music career.

I played music with Charlie, tried to help him get a recording contract. I was friends with Dennis Wilson and the Beach Boys. Greg Jenkinson, Dennis Wilson and I. We're interested in getting Charlie to settle down, come into a studio, just him and his guitar, play and sing his songs. There's a time for livin' This film, Chaos, is littered with a lot of Manson music, which I confess to rather liking.

A lot of it I just never heard before, and I think this is one of the first times it's really used extensively. You want to hear a lot of Charles Manson's music? Watch Chaos, please. Yeah, and also people might know the connection with the Beach Boys too, right? That's in there as well. Indeed. The Beach Boys actually recorded one of Manson's songs.

Even though it was Manson's song, it's credited to Dennis Wilson. Just coming back to this mind control stuff, you mentioned your film Wyrmwood. Why was there such an obsession around controlling the human mind at the time? It comes out of World War II and the belief that the Nazis were involved in attempts at mind control and the sudden existence of hallucinogenic drugs and the belief that they could play some kind of role in changing minds or controlling minds. The need of the United States to prepare itself for future adversaries of one kind or another. A lot of this came out of the war in some very, very strong form. The belief that various communist countries, China and Korea, were involved in similar explorations, hence the term Manchurian candidate. And that we had to take a defensive posture.

We had to be able to do it ourselves. It's, if you like, a version of the race for more and more powerful atomic weapons. This seemed to be like a new kind of weapon that hadn't even been imagined before. Turning a person into a bomb. Not carrying a bomb, but into a bomb. Mm-hmm. And let's say Manson was part of that experimentation. Why him? Why would people be interested? Why would the CIA be interested in him? Well, let me see if I can come up with an answer for you. He's captive commodity. he's in prison. There is considerable evidence that the CIA was using prisoners for various kinds of experimentation. And I suppose the argument goes on, well, why

not Manson? Prisoners are always a great target. They're not going anywhere. They're locked up and if there's a need to experiment on them, usually some way can be found. Why Manson specifically? Your guess is as good as mine. All of these experiments and these government programs, you mentioned a couple of other ones in the film. Cointel Pro was started in 1967 by the FBI. KS was started in 1967 by the CIA. Those two programs were designed to infiltrate left-wing groups, especially the Panthers, and neutralize. And that's what their own documents say. What kind of impact did they have in the long term?

Do you think that they helped fuel a culture of paranoia? Well, of course they did. Inarguable. I mean, we live today in a deeply paranoid world and I can just speak for myself, let alone anyone else. It's part of a whole pattern of distrust in the government, the idea that we're being manipulated or controlled. This has become part of American politics, maybe increasingly so. Was it a good thing for the CIA to have been doing? Arguably no. You know, I know that they were also working to neutralize anti-war movements, for example.

And I can't help but think about the targeting of dissident voices right now in the U.S. by the Trump administration, Immigrations and Customs Enforcement, has been going after pro-Palestinian students. I've heard comparisons between what's going on now and the Red Scare. It's a politically charged and anxious time. And I was curious, what connections do you see between the past that's investigated in your film and present day US?

Endless comparisons, unfortunately. It's hard to read about the past in America, particularly this past in America, without thinking about current affairs and the state of the country as we speak. We've embraced a kind of crazy isolationism and paranoia that is something that I don't like, I find embarrassing. Not that you need to know my individual opinion on all of this, but yeah, we have descended send it into kind of the anti-communist scares of the 50s all over again. Except that it's not communism, it's God knows what. Wokeism? Maybe. Whatever that might be.

Does the past offer any lessons here? Well, you're talking to someone who has a cynical bent. I often say that it's my version of Santiana who said that those who are unfamiliar with history are condemned to repeat it. My version of that is those who are unfamiliar with history are condemned to repeat it. My version of that is those who are unfamiliar with history are condemned to repeat it without a sense of ironic futility. I mean, looking at the past just reminds me that we've learned nothing from the past at all and that we just repeat it mindlessly and endlessly. And just on Manson in particular, do you feel like this is as close as will ever come to knowing exactly what happened there?

The wonderful thing about nonfiction, with fiction you can have closure, you have a kind of confined universe, you can create it out of whole cloth. In dealing with the world, the world is inutterably complex. I have myself been involved in all kinds of murder investigations. I've been obsessed with them over the years. And I made one movie where I solved a murder in Texas and got a man who had been sentenced to death out of prison. I got his conviction reversed and I found the evidence that showed that his chief prosecution witness, the guy who testified against him, was the real killer.

Right. This is your film, The Thin Blue Learn. This is the Thin Blue Learn. You don't get to do that every day. When I'm asleep at night, I close my eyes, I think, why would he do it? He had no background that would lead to murder, no reason to commit a murder. I just felt they prosecuted the wrong person. I don't know why.

And I often think of it as luck. It's luck when all of your evidence comes together, it pulls together towards some end. You mean that have absolute proof, 100% certainty, but then when you're dealing with the real world, you never do. You never, ever, ever, ever do. And most investigators, I feel, should admit that somehow they can't quite put the period at the end of the sentence. They can't dot all the I's, they can't cross all the T's, that there's stuff that just slips out of their fingers. There are all these odd connections.

Would we like to think that it was all programmed and all rehearsed? Yeah, it's a kind of hopeful theory. But I always like to remind people that my experience of people is much closer to chaotic of people acting for confused, crazy motives. And that's one of the things, that's why I would urge people to watch this. Tell me what you think. That we're plunged into the middle of something that is really puzzling. It's a really puzzling murder mystery.

And I think each of us should try to come up with his own explanation of why this might have happened. Maybe MKUltra, maybe a government program, a conspiracy, maybe just inadvertence and craziness and chaos. Yeah. Well, I think that's actually a great spot to end this conversation. Errol Morris, thank you so much for this. This is great. I hope this was helpful. Very helpful and a lot of fun too. Thank you. Okay. Well, thank you so much for doing it. Such a pleasure. Thank you. Take care. All right, everyone.

That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC podcasts, visit cbs.org. And if you'd like to see more of our content, please subscribe to our channel. And if you'd like to see more of our content, please subscribe to our channel. And if you'd like to see more of our content, please subscribe to our channel.

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