Front Burner - Europe reels under latest COVID-19 wave

Episode Date: December 8, 2021

Just when Europe thought it had beat COVID-19, it’s once again an epicentre of the pandemic. As countries struggle to fight off yet another wave of the virus many governments in the E.U. are bringing in strict new lockdowns, and in some cases contemplating vaccine mandates. But these efforts are meeting fierce — and sometimes violent — resistance. Today, the host of the Berlin podcast Common Ground Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson walks us through what’s fuelling this latest surge across Western European countries — vaccine hesitancy, a more aggressive variant, general distrust in government, or all of the above?

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Angela Starrett. Hi, I'm Angela Starrett. This past weekend, the streets of Vienna were filled with scenes of anger and frustration as 40,000 people marched against Austria's new COVID-19 lockdown.

For months, we've seen protests all across the EU, but lately, the outrage has been ramping up as countries introduce more measures to try to control new surges of the EU. But lately, the outrage has been ramping up as countries introduce more measures to try to control new surges of the virus. Violent unrest erupted for the second night in the Netherlands. Rioters were seen hurling fireworks at police and there were blazing bicycles in The Hague. Brussels was today the latest European city to see unrest over tightened coronavirus restrictions. Protests have also taken place in Austria, Italy and Croatia. Governments have recently tightened restrictions in Germany, the Netherlands, the Czech Republic,

Slovakia, Belgium and even Denmark, where just two months ago they were pretty much celebrating the end of the pandemic. Earlier this week, the continent surpassed 75 million cases. And the WHO says if this keeps up, another half million people could die of COVID by March. Today on FrontBurner, we're talking to the host of Berlin's Common Ground podcast, Soraya Sarhadi Nelson, about Europe's latest COVID wave and the turmoil

it's unleashing. Hey, Soraya. Hi. So I just want to start with the situation in Germany, because that's a place that's faced, you know, these weeks of record infections. And just over two weeks ago, the country's health minister said by the end of the winter, everyone in Germany will be, quote unquote, vaccinated, cured or dead. What went through your mind when you when you heard him say that? any which way, but few of their predictions have come true. And I'm not saying that this isn't a serious situation, but to say that it's all going to be fixed or everyone's dead or whatever the case is just seemed a little bit exaggerated to me. And I think it was more about frustration than it was fact. Right. Yeah, that does seem like a lot of hyperbole, but I guess concerning as well. And as I said, Germany is facing these record infections. We spoke to an epidemiologist based in Hamburg, that's Dr. Raph Reintjes, about how things are

going in Germany right now. And this is what he had to say. The number of reported cases is extremely high, has increased dramatically. In the whole country, the rate is around 440 cases per 100,000 inhabitants per seven days. The number of hospitals or intensive care units and hospitals in general in some parts of the country is at or beyond its limits. So you said more and more patients have been flown out from one part of the country to other parts of the country. What is the extent of the country's COVID situation right now? Well, there are some areas that are just crazy. There's no doubt that Germany is a large contributor to why Europe is now the biggest place that you find new cases of COVID. A lot of the people who are sick are not sick with heavy illness, the ones that have the breakthrough infections, you know, because we do have a fairly

decent vaccination rate here. We should remember it's not the ideal of 75% or more, and that's what's largely or at least in part causing the problem here. But it is 68.9%. And that's higher than most countries, including in the European Union. But there's no doubt that they can't just let it run amok. Right. And I mean, despite all of this, the government still obviously has some clear concerns in response to this most recent surge. Germany has imposed these sweeping new restrictions. What exactly did that look like and who are these restrictions impacting the most? Well, it's interesting because I actually and I think many people who are vaccinated welcomed these restrictions. We felt they should have existed before. And this is why we're in the

situation we are in now is that they waited too long because you had a caretaker government. Germany's Social Democrats are now the biggest party outgoing. A chancellor, Angela Merkel, will be formally released from office, though she will remain as caretaker chancellor until a new government is in place. And so what we're seeing now is you have to test. I mean, you have to prove you're vaccinated. You have to have, in fact, the code on your phone. This is to protect against fraud, which has been an issue here as well with people claiming that they were vaccinated, but in fact, you mean, I'm somebody who thinks the 2G, as they call it, that means geimpft or genesin, which means that you are either vaccinated or you're recovered in the past six months. You know, we were like, yeah, that's good. I don't want to go to a Christmas market that is open to everyone. I would like to have this. So I think these restrictions are very, very draconian, perhaps for people who don't believe in the vaccination. And there are still

far too many of those people, but their minds are not going to be changed anyway. And so what the German government has done at this stage is to at least try and provide some protection for people who have been following the rules, who are wearing the masks, who are vaccinated, who've in fact, you know, gotten booster shots because now they're starting to put, they're talking about putting restrictions on how long the two, the double vaccine counts. So it's okay. It's just a little bit cumbersome to have to go get that test or to have to whip out your phone and show your QR code. But it's, you know, for safety for everyone. You live in a society, you live in a very compact country, you know, with a lot of people, and this is a good thing. And is it similar to here where, I mean, we would need our vaccine passport or the QR code to access things like restaurants, shops and theaters, but

anybody can kind of access grocery stores and kind of like these essential services. Is it the same there? Yes. I mean, for sure, they're not restricting people from getting food or getting drugs or going to the drugstore here that where you actually get medication that's prescribed by doctors. And I know they think it's bitterly unfair. But what's interesting is these sort of restrictions on them is not driving up the vaccination number. I think we went up by about a half a percent since all of this started to be introduced in various states in the past few weeks. So I think at this point, the lines are drawn. The people who believe in vaccinations and like myself stood in line for four and a half hours to get a booster shot because it's not

been rolled out very well here in Germany. And then you have those who are just not going to get the vaccine because they don't trust the government. They think this is some sort of, you know, conspiracy. They believe whatever they read on there. They're called Kverdenke here, the QAnon types. And, you know, every day new conspiracy theories are put up. We're going to get to all that in just a second. conspiracy theories are put up. We're going to get to all that in just a second. But before we get to that piece of the story, I mean, Germany is presumably well equipped to deal with this

situation, right? Like, how did it get to this point? Well, I mean, again, I think it's because of a lack of doing anything. I mean, you know, Delta was a problem in the UK and other places, even within the European Union, for some time. And things weren't happening here. There was an election in September. And also because people were not, you know, they only had one vaccine, perhaps, and not two vaccines. And so sort of this lack of restrictions and just letting things go until it got to the

point that it did is what required these these strict measures. But again, you know, we're not seeing this level. I'm not sensing the level of despair and panic that I remember from the lockdown when it was really rough and people were just really tired. And you mentioned a couple times that just under 70% of Germany's population are vaccinated, which is still not necessarily high, all things considered. Not high enough, yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's not necessarily high enough for herd immunity. Not high enough. Yeah, exactly. It's not necessarily high enough for herd immunity. And so some health experts say, you know, it needs to be higher to curb another resurgence. So I want to ask you about vaccine mandates. They've not yet been brought into Germany. But again, in our conversation with Dr. Reintjes, he wondered if it was the only way forward. It would have been better not ever having gotten into this situation.

So, for example, in the beginning, it was extremely difficult for people to get vaccinated. Lots of people were sent away if they didn't fulfill 100% of the criteria. And it was very difficult to get an appointment in the vaccination centers and so on. So there the momentum was lost. Now in this very critical situation, I don't think it's the preferred direct way to go forward, but probably there's not really an alternative at this point in time. What do you think of what he had to say on that? Do you think Germany will bring in vaccine mandates and should they? Well, it's interesting because the incoming Chancellor Olaf Scholz stated very clearly that he supports a vaccine mandate and he would like

to see something introduced in the springtime. But he also followed that up very quickly with that it should be left up to the lawmakers in parliament or the Bundestag here. So he basically punted the ball because it is unlikely at this stage from what I'm hearing and seeing and reading that the majority in parliament would go for that. Vaccine mandates are really a struggle here because you have a lot of people remembering back to the communist days of Eastern Germany, remembering, you know, the Nazi Reich or, you know, they don't to have the government impose this is not something that's welcome even to people who support the vaccines. So I think the mandate is something that we're going to see if the numbers continue to rise

exponentially. But it's a big hurdle to cross because there is a very valid legal argument that constitutionally Germany would not be able to enforce a vaccine mandate. And I want to mention that the World Health Organization's Europe head echoed this and said Tuesday that vaccine mandates should be a last resort. a last resort. Mandates around vaccination are an absolute last resort and only applicable when all other feasible options to improve vaccination uptake have been exhausted. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast,

just search for Money for Couples. I want to talk now about Germany's neighbours. So we know that Germany is not alone here. Its neighbour to the south, Austria, also just put its 8.9 million residents back under a nationwide lockdown. In Austria, a full lockdown comes into force on Monday. into force on Monday. But despite having one of the highest infection rates in Europe, protesters took to the streets of the capital Vienna today to show their opposition to the new measures. What was the state of COVID in Austria that forced them to take such drastic measures? Well, it's interesting because their vaccination rate was several percentage points under Germany, but not where you could say, oh, only 30% were vaccinated. So that explains it. It is interesting what an exponential difference happens if you

don't have the minimum 75% that experts call for vaccinated. And so the number of naysayers, and Austria is even more of the kind of country where you have people saying no mandates, that sort of thing. It just got to the point, however, that they were having way too many cases. I can't quote you an exact figure right this minute as to what it is this moment. But certainly it went high enough that it caused enough concern that the government imposed what people just didn't think was ever going to happen. And that was a lockdown in hopes of being able to open up again next week and then doing sort of along the German lines of if you're vaccinated, you're cool. And if you're not, you're going to be staying

inside longer. And that's where it's headed next week, I believe. I mean, it's either the 13th or the 17th. I've seen both dates reported. But there is going to be a lifting. I mean, the whole idea of having this lockdown was to try and save what they could of the Christmas season. However, this was before Omicron came along, the new variant, although it's early days. I want to talk about the reaction the public's had when it comes to some of these kind of lockdown practices or lockdown actions. lockdown practices or lockdown actions. In Austria, the government says it is going to impose a vaccine mandate starting in February. But those actions have been met with pretty significant protests. 40,000 people turned out in Vienna on Saturday to express their anger. Who were the people taking to the streets? Well, I think it's a larger audience or a larger universe of the anti-vax

people. But I think they were joined by people who, again, don't believe in mandates. You know, this is something that they feel should be imposed in a dictatorial country, not in a democracy. And so, but definitely this Kvérdinkov movement, this QAnon version here that we have in Europe, has been quite active in southern Germany and in Austria. So I think these are a lot of the people we're seeing. And it is interesting that the government in Austria has actually, they just went in and took care of business. I mean, part of it, again, is that it's not an election year right now. In Germany, it is. But they also had much higher numbers per capita than we have

in Germany, even though at this point, 1% of the German population has active COVID right now, which is pretty scary. And I mean, how much of what we're seeing on the streets is driven by politics or ideology? It's like the third biggest political party in Austria, right? That organized this Vienna rally. The Freedom Party has capitalized on fears among some Austrians that their country is being overwhelmed by immigrants. Well, it is. It is. Just like, yeah, the largest opposition party here in Germany is Alternative for Germany, which is also a far-right party.

After previously winning votes by railing against immigration, the AFD has morphed into the anti-mask and anti-vax party. It is now campaigning for what it calls a normal Germany. And they have definitely been at the forefront, both parties have been at the forefront of legal challenges. Two mandates, two vaccines, two you name it, anything to do with COVID. And so it's very much an organized group. I mean, we saw them here in Berlin, even, you know, they were coming from all across the country, and it's not that different in Austria. But I think in this case, when you're

talking about 40,000 people, there definitely were people there who are perhaps not anti-vax, but are against the government imposing mandates like that. I mean, they feel it should be a choice. It's beyond just the QAnon or, again, Kvyatnika community that works in several countries in concert. You mentioned that some of the people involved in these rallies, these kind of against mandates, were sort of these QAnon factions. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Well, they're called Kverdenker here, and they're not identical to QAnon. I mean, but it is definitely the same thing. And it's the same letter of the alphabet. But they have been involved. And there are a lot of, you know, what you would argue are intelligent people or people who are professionals. It seems like they are

particularly popular with people who lived in the former Eastern Germany, or, you know, Austria, more conservative places where the far right has a bigger foothold. And they just feel that this is government. You know, this is big government. This is not what they want to see. They don't think this is freedom. And yes, they also subscribe to these what people who believe in vaccines or believe in coronavirus might describe as strange theories about whether this is actually a disease or is it just a flu or is it just made up or whatever the case might be. And every day there are new conspiracy theories. I mean, I'm curious what your thoughts on this. What do you think all of these countries have in common in terms of the reasons behind their latest wave? Well, inaction, maybe jumping too quick to opening everything up again and not reacting fast enough, even though, I mean, they have a sort of a process in place that, oh, this number has gone too high, so we're going to institute this.

But again, people are like, you know, hell no to a second lockdown for a second Christmas in a row. I mean, that's just like unfathomable. And plus, the economies are really suffering. And so I think there was just a delayed reaction to deal with this. The only reaction here was, okay, we're going to prevent travel. It's sort of like closing the door of the barn after the cow's gotten out in terms of when they do these, oh, we're not going to let flights come in from X place that, A, there still has to be a better job done to persuade people, I mean, to sort of overcome this narrative by Kvérdénka and QAnon and those kind of groups that the vaccination is bad or that it's not necessary. I mean, there has to be more of an effort on the part of the government. And there also just needs to be a little bit of cohesion in the response. I mean, this is not a virus that stops at borders. And I think

Europe has really struggled with this from the beginning, in that they can't come up with a cohesive plan for this, nor can they come up with a cohesive plan for migrants. I mean, it's a struggle for the EU to sort of have 27 voices, you know, or 27 countries agreeing. And so I think all of that contributed to why we're now in the middle of this fourth surge that really shouldn't have happened. But again, I log at least places like Berlin, you know, where they are allowing life to continue. They're just making it tougher for the people who are not vaccinated, who have been proven time and again to be the most risk to society. Soraya, thank you so much for this. It's been really great to talk to you. And I'm really grateful for your expertise in taking us through this story today. You're welcome. Thanks so much for having me on. Before we go today, as mentioned in our conversation with Saraya,

Before we go today, as mentioned in our conversation with Soraya, Olaf Scholz was sworn in Wednesday as Germany's new chancellor, marking the beginning of a new era in Germany's politics. He's replacing Angela Merkel, who led the country for 16 years. Scholz, a social democrat, will be leading a three-party coalition government. And that's all for now. If you liked today's episode, please give us a review or rate us on your podcast app. I'm Angela Starrett, in for Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening to Frontrunner.