Front Burner - Europe's lessons for Trump's border wall

Episode Date: January 10, 2019

As the debate rages in the U.S. over funding for Donald Trump's proposed wall on the country's southern border, we ask CBC correspondent Nahlah Ayed just how effective Europe's barriers have been in stopping the flow of migrants. Ayed has travelled across Europe to investigate the recent proliferation of border walls as part of her reporting on the migration crisis.

Hey there, I'm Kathleen Goltar and I have a confession to make. I am a true crime fanatic. I devour books and films and most of all true crime podcasts. But sometimes I just want to know more. I want to go deeper. And that's where my podcast Crime Story comes in. Every week I go behind the scenes with the creators of the best in true crime. I chat with the host of Scamanda, Teacher's Pet, Bone Valley, the list goes on. For the insider scoop, find Crime Story in your podcast app. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. I'm Jamie Poisson.

It was his very first primetime Oval Office address. And it felt really familiar. Why do wealthy politicians build walls, fences and gates around their homes? They don't build walls because they hate the people on the outside, but because they love the people on the outside, but because they love the people on the inside. U.S. President Donald Trump once again demanding a wall on the country's southern border. He was back at it again on Wednesday, too. All of the other things, the sensors and the drones,

it's all wonderful to have and it works well, but only if you have the wall. If you don't have the wall, it doesn't matter. And until he gets nearly $6 billion to build his wall, Trump says the government will remain partly shut down. He insists that his wall will control the flow of migrants across the border. Democrats say that it's ineffective and a waste of money. The symbol of America should be the Statue of Liberty, not a 30-foot wall.

Well, today on FrontBurner, we're going to Europe, where all of this has already been tested. My colleague Nala Ayed has traveled to Hungary and Spain in particular. Well, today on FrontBurner, we're going to Europe, where all of this has already been tested. My colleague Nala Ayed has traveled to Hungary and Spain in particular. She's seen the walls there firsthand, and she'll help us understand the forces behind the rise of immigration walls and whether they're an effective solution. That's today on FrontBurner. Nala, thanks so much for joining us today. It's a pleasure. Donald Trump made his case Tuesday night for the need for a border barrier between the U.S. and Mexico. And today I want to talk to you about Europe's walls because I know you spent quite a bit of time reporting on them.

First, can you give me a sense of what kind of barriers exist in Europe right now? There are a bunch that are relatively new, right? Well, the short answer is yes. In fact, since 2015, we're talking almost 1300 kilometers of fences and walls that have been put up or are in the process of being put up. So Europe went essentially from two walls in the 1990s to 15 just 20 years later. So we see walls at Bulgaria-Turkey border, Macedonia with Greece, France with the channel that separates it from the UK, Austria and Slovenia. Of course, there were already walls in Europe prior to this period that we're talking about. To put it all kind of the recent proliferation in context or in perspective, the Economist was

predicting that Europe will have soon have more physical barriers on its national borders than it did during the Cold War. And this is on a continent that is built on the idea of being borderless. And I actually read somewhere that it's a phenomena that's being described as 1989 in reverse. That's in

reference to the Berlin Wall coming down. And there's been walls built equal to the length of six Berlin Walls since it was torn down. Wow. Can we talk a little bit about why we're seeing this proliferation of walls? In the United States, we're clearly seeing people trying to cross the border from Mexico to the United States, we're clearly seeing people trying to cross the border from Mexico to the United States. Border Patrol apprehended 400,000 people there in 2018.

Undoubtedly, there are people crossing the border, many of whom are trying to claim asylum. But Europe in recent years, they've been dealing with a much larger migration issue, objectively speaking. Yeah, I guess the entire world's having to deal with the fact that there are some 70 million people who have been forced to leave their homes right now. And of those, about a third are refugees. And of those, nearly 60% come from just three countries, South Sudan, Syria, and of course, Afghanistan. Now, Europe has always been a destination for people coming from the Middle East and from Africa because it physically is so close. It's so it sits right at the doorstep of some of the most miserable places on Earth. So it's within reach, but it's within a tough reach of Africa and the Middle East and some of the world's poorest countries, but also some of the most intractable conflicts. So it's seen many, many, many more asylum seekers than anything the United States has seen in recent times.

In 2015, in particular, between the conflicts that were happening in Africa or on top of the Syrian crisis, which produced so many refugees, on top of those fleeing violence in Afghanistan and Iraq, those numbers peaked. So 2015 was a big year. And so we weren't just seeing people coming on boats and ships from Africa and Greece, but also we were seeing people coming on foot, literally walking across Europe.

Goodbye! Goodbye! My grandmother in the Second World War, she was also a refugee and I my father was a baby, a little baby. I have to do this. So all of that made 2015 a really big year. And again, for perspective, in that year alone, Germany, which was operating kind of an open-door policy at the time, took in one million people. So again, it's a scale of nothing like the U.S. has seen.

So what kind of arguments are we hearing from politicians in Europe for why these walls or fences, barriers of some kind, need to be erected? Well, it's the same argument that politicians make when they're talking about why they need to have a legal way for people to enter their country. They want it to be regulated. They want it to be orderly. And they want to let in people they want to let in, that there is a process that exists and simply walking into a country isn't the best way to access, to live there. And so those arguments are the same that you would use in any day. But also in Hungary's case, for example, you know, because of the onslaught, because so many people were coming at the same time, the argument was that this could threaten Hungary's identity, that a majority Christian country can't handle a majority, you know, so many Muslim arrivals. And Hungary's Prime Minister Viktor Orban, I remember him saying things about Muslim invaders, for example.

No, exactly. And he did talk about them being a threat to Hungary's identity. People in Europe are full of fear because we see that the European leaders, among them the prime ministers, are not able to control the situation. And it's a refrain that he comes back to quite often. And you might recall that he's been called the original Trump.

And so he... And then quite a few parallels between them. Exactly. And immigration has constantly been one of the issues that he's raised over and over again. And again, ironic, considering very few people from those asylum seekers back in 2015, anyway, were actually hoping to stay in Hungary, they were trying to get elsewhere. And like Trump, are we seeing politicians in Europe talk a lot about the bad people that can come into their country? Right. Absolutely. Yes. And there have been some incidents, especially back from 2015 onwards, that to many people indicated that you do get some bad apples when you have such a large influx of people. So there were concerns, for example, after the sexual assaults on New Year's Eve in Cologne in Germany.

The victims described being attacked by dozens of men. Police say many of the suspects are asylum seekers from the Middle East and North Africa. People say, you know, these are outsiders who have come in and now are causing trouble. And so, yes, absolutely, that's one of the arguments, is keeping people out, keeping the immigration process orderly, and being able to choose who you want to come to your country. Let's talk about this wall in Hungary. I know you've been there. When was it built? What does it look like? Where is it? Well, it all started, again, in 2015. There was a caravan, very much like the one we saw coming up from the south towards the United States. And we were watching as thousands of people were coming, trying to get to Germany and Sweden.

So they used Hungary as a waypoint. And the route became well established. And it went through Hungary's border with Serbia and through Budapest on to Austria and then to Germany. From Serbia to here, we have to throw in the forest. It took us about 13 hours, and we have to hide so many times because of police. In response, Hungary's government, led by Viktor Orban, decided that to solve this, they would build this fence.

Today is closed. that to solve this, they would build this fence. Today is closed. So initially it was just a razor wire fence, made of metal, very basic. We went and saw it as it was being put up. It went up in record speed, and within weeks it seemed Hungary had this border fence with Serbia.

Open! Open! The interesting thing, though, is that very few people at the time, and this is well documented, who were traveling through Hungary actually wanted to stay in Hungary. They were using Hungary as a crossing point. They wanted to get to other places. Where were they trying to go? Many of them were going to Germany, because as you might remember, Angela Merkel at the time, the chancellor basically threw the doors open and said that Germany was open to refugees. Please, please open the door. Please open the door. We want only to go to Germany.

So the fence went up ostensibly to protect Hungary from unwanted asylum seekers, but it actually basically stopped people from crossing through Hungary. If we go back, we will die. There is very far from here that we are coming here. Today we are coming by foot in here. And when it was put up, initially it was chaos. We were there on some of the first days, and people knew the route, it was well established, but they hit the fence and it was chaos. There was tear gas, people protesting, you know, shaking the fence, trying to get through, and police basically tear gassing them away. And eventually, people realized they were going to

have to basically find another way. So they did. They just they went on to Croatia, where and which until then had not been affected. Do you remember meeting anyone there? Any stories that stick out to you? What I remember most there was the fact that people really didn't know where they were going and that they really depended on each other and people they saw along the way on how to get to where they want to go. So people were asking us, like I remember distinctly several people when they realized this route that they had been told about was blocked, they were asking us, well, where do we go now? Which direction is Croatia? I was actually asked that. So that's what kind of sticks with me is just how desperate people were and how little information they had on how to find their way.

Do we have a sense of how much this wall cost? Yes. It's about 1.5 billion Canadian. And by my calculation, that's about $9.6 million Canadian per kilometer fence. Can we talk about how this wall has played in Hungary? Are there people there that are happy with it, that think that it worked? Yeah. Well, I think to the extent that people stopped using Hungary as a route to other countries, yes, it did work. I mean, there was a point at which the central station in Budapest, and we saw this with our own eyes, was absolutely full to the rim of people who were trying to make it to other places.

And it was chaotic. And so to the extent that people are happy that that's ended, yes, they see the wall as a success, or the fence, I should say. But again, very few people wanted to claim asylum in Hungary in the first place, so our measure of success, in a way, is slightly flawed. Was this a political victory for Orbán? It was a political victory for Orbán, and as you know, he won again a third term this past year, a resounding victory with his coalition.

He has a supermajority. So clearly his policies do work. They are popular in Hungary. But I should say, you know, at the time, there was a USA Today reporter in Hungary who spoke to a mayor of a small town that's just at the border. Here's what he had to say. He said that the fence serves no purpose other than political theater. It should come down, is what this mayor was saying. I would urge Americans to examine whether

Trump's wall will really make them safer or better off. And you do hear those kinds of arguments. I mean, I think there is a minority of people in Hungary and other places who acknowledge that walls and fences are often just political tools. You've also been to Spain, and you saw an anti-migration wall there. Yeah, it's a very special case, that one. So this is in two Spanish enclaves, which are Spanish territory that happened to be in North Africa. So they're called Ceuta and Melilla. And we went to Melilla. It's a very, very tiny city. It's about 12 kilometers, 12 square kilometers. It's really small. And with a long fence around it, it actually basically turns it into a gated community. That's really small. And with a long fence around it, it actually basically

turns it into a gated community. That's how it felt. It's had this fence since the 1990s, the late 90s. And because it's on the African continent, it's always going to draw asylum seekers from Africa and the Middle East as well. Because the minute you land in Malia, you're on European soil, which means you can claim asylum. Right. People want to get there so that they can claim asylum, so that they might be able to go to other places in Europe. Exactly. So it's very important to the authorities there

to make sure that people don't set foot in there. So that fence is impressive. It's monitored 24-7. It has infrared cameras, motion sensors and watchtowers. And the authorities can be at a breach within a minute. So if you go and shake the fence really hard, police are going to show up within a minute. It's quite extraordinary. And why three fences?

It's a good question. It means that if somebody scales the first one and wants to make it all the way, they have to actually jump three times. So they jump, they can't go, like, you know what I mean? They're not just jumping one fence. They're jumping three fences. And these are, let me just think, these are, I think, six meters high. So it's not an easy thing to scale.

So literally, those people who make it, and there are people who make it, are jumping over six meters three times. It's quite a feat. It is. The odds of them doing it are really against them. But people do manage to make it. I was just looking at this fence before we chatted today, and one image that really stuck with me was a golf course where people were playing golf, and behind them there's this large fence. It's like this hulking image.

Yeah, we went there. We saw that image. We were standing at a center where there were asylum seekers, and they're overflowing with asylum seekers, and sitting on cardboard boxes and making little fires to warm themselves up and right across the street we could see the beautiful golf course and it's really quite stark you mentioned that some people are making their way through the fence or over the fence. How are they doing that? My explanation for this and in talking to people there is that walls always invite challenge.

And they always, people try to find a way to get creative in trying to find them. So when we were there and look at the fence, we could see these little metal hooks at the very top where somebody had tried. So there's a million different ways to try to get across a fence like that um and so there have been these organized events actually lately where dozens of people have been able to jump over the fence all at the same time and this is one tactic that's worked quite well uh recently so in siuta the place i didn't visit the other one in last j, some 800 people stormed this fence. And it was organized clearly by smugglers. They attacked the police when they showed up with stones and with, excuse me, but containers full of excrement. Wow. Just to kind of get them at bay.

Exactly. It's because they need to just get their feet on the ground. And it worked because 600 people actually made it. And yes, some of them were sent back to Morocco for various reasons, but a large number of people were able to make it and now are claiming asylum. It also happens in smaller numbers. Like I met a young man who was from Yemen, who's 20 years old, and he tried once and he was caught by police and thrown back over the fence or thrown through it and then he was told there was really no other way so he tried again and he made it the second time so he actually was there i met two men who young men who took little rubber dinghies and were at night were able to get around the fence on the water to land on spanish soil other people

got themselves smuggled through the normal border points around the wall. So either inside cars, children have been hiding in crevices of vehicles, inside mattresses, they're sewn in so they could be passed in undetected. You mentioned the role of smugglers. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Well, it's important to remember, I think, that a lot of people who cross the sea are doing so with the help of smugglers and that it's a very, very lucrative business. And it's really important to note that it's not just asylum seekers who are being inventive about finding ways around whatever is blocking the movement of people. And so it's a lucrative business and

smugglers will also always be trying to find a way to get to make more money and to get people across borders. So Nala, we've got this one wall in Hungary that has essentially deflected migrants to other countries, many of whom had no intention of staying there in the first place. first place. And we've got these other two walls in this tiny little place in Spain that have been sort of effective, but the scale and size is just not comparable to what we hear Trump calling for, or what exists in other parts of Europe. What do you think a more imaginative solution to this problem is? Well, it was the subject of a very in-depth discussion internationally this year, as UN members discussed the migration pact that they signed this year. Canada is a signatory. Canada is a signatory. And it was controversial. I mean, there were all sorts of, we can spend hours talking about that. But the discussion is, how do you stop poverty and wars? And I mean, really, it's about talking about the root cause. And so that's a massive job, but it's one you've got to start somewhere. And so it means trying to deal

with the root cause, trying to provide opportunities for people in their countries of origin. And there's not an or, but an and. People also talk about making sure that there is a dignified way for people to seek asylum, that it should be a protected right, that there are safe ways that people can try to find a better life without getting on a dangerous rubber dinghy and risking their lives as thousands have and dying in the Mediterranean over the past many years. Or trying and failing to scale a wall. Right. Or trying and failing and impaling yourself because there's a razor wire at the top of a fence.

And so, I mean, I don't know the answers, but the answers that have been discussed out there include dealing with root causes, but also providing a dignified and easier way for people who are needed in many of these countries to find new homes. Nala, thank you so much. You're welcome. Yesterday, the U.S. president met with two top-ranking Democrats, Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi. They talked about the shutdown and the border wall. After the meeting, Pelosi and Schumer spoke to reporters. Again, we saw a temper tantrum.

I asked him to open up the government. And he said, if I open up the government, you won't do what I want. That's cruel. And then a few minutes later, he sort of slammed the table. And when Leader Pelosi said she didn't agree with the wall, he just walked out and said, we have nothing to discuss. So he said it was a waste of his time. That is sad and unfortunate.

That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus. Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger.

The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now.