Front Burner - Face to face with Canada’s party leaders

Episode Date: October 4, 2019

This week — as part of the CBC series Face to Face — five undecided voters got five minutes each with federal party leaders to ask the questions that matter most to them. The National's Rosemary Barton hosted the events, and followed up with questions for Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau, Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer, Green Party Leader Elizabeth May, and NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh. Today on Front Burner, Barton reflects on what she learned from the exchanges, and what they might tell us about what's at stake with the upcoming federal election.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. All this week, I've been tuning into this project on CBC's The National called Face to Face. Undecided voters from across the country sat down with the four major party leaders, Justin Trudeau, Jagmeet Singh, Andrew Scheer, and Elizabeth May.

For five minutes each, they brought theirau, Jagmeet Singh, Andrew Scheer, and Elizabeth May. For five minutes each, they brought their concerns, their questions. They demanded clear answers from these leaders. What are some personal actions that you'll be taking to make sure that we're still able to maintain this reputation? As a brown Muslim man, where do I fit in the conservative party? You've not been able to create momentum. So how can I feel confident in your leadership? I loved watching all these smart, engaged people. It actually gave me a lot of energy around this election right now. The National's Rosie Barton moderated all of this and she also jumped in from time to time

and got some answers that we haven't yet heard. I give you that, but what is the discomfort that your plan would create for Canadians? Rosie is here with me today and we're going to talk through some of the most revealing moments and talk about her big takeaways here. This is Fromforter. Rosie, hello.

Hello. The indefatigable Rosie Byrne. Eventually I will collapse, but after the election. Well, thank you so much for being with us today. So let's start with Liberal leader Justin Trudeau. So there was a bit of a different energy with this one because it seemed like people wanted to take him to task on his record and see him challenged.

And let's talk about some of the ways that you thought they were challenging him. Well, first of all, I think there was also a different kind of vibe in the studio, because he is still the prime minister, although we're calling him the liberal leader throughout the election. He's still the prime minister. And that can be a little intimidating, right, when you have to sit in front of someone face to face. But yeah, the questions were perhaps more directive towards him because he has this record. Right, like his legacy on Indigenous issues. That's right. I was going to bring that up too, this lovely man named Spirit River

from Calgary, who himself just the week before had heard about a suicide in his community. My people are dying. And I see Canada as kind of the cause for this in the form of that, you know, we were never like this traditionally. Through the residential schools, we were taught how to hate ourselves. Recognized that the Liberal government, the Liberal Party had done a lot for Indigenous people in Canada, but that there were still things that sort of needed immediate attention. Like you don't even have a strategy for suicide prevention. And, you know, for these kind of things, those are great, but they don't really apply too much into my situation. And, you know, this is something that the prime minister has called his sort of one of his number one priorities, reconciliation. And Spirit wanted some specific answers to what he wanted done to help his community.

Do you think he got those answers? No, and I don't think Spirit thought that either. We move forward on historic language legislation that's going to allow people to learn and preserve indigenous languages because they're so essential. That takes time, though. And I think of the residential schools, which were radical policy. This is taking too long. But I do think having someone who has been prime minister, wants to be prime minister, listening to you directly, talking about your personal experiences and that of your friends has an impact.

Unsurprisingly, the brown face, black face controversy also came up. Inara Hasmani from Toronto asked Trudeau about this. It kind of creates like a question like, oh wow, is that my prime minister that's representing Canada out there? Something we really champion is pluralism. It's really upsetting to see that. Something that we're really great at and our leader is not is not doing that anymore. We have been a government that has defended diversity, but the terrible choices I made many years ago

have put not just a pall over that, but have directly hurt a lot of people who face discrimination every day, who thought of me as an ally, thought of me as a friend, as someone who was fighting for diversity. And I am, and I very much am in my life today. So you followed up with him after that.

I thought this exchange was very interesting. And tell me about that. Well, first of all, I give Anara lots of props. She's 21, a student trying to find her way in the world. Obviously, she herself has brown skin. So she was certainly a better place to ask Justin Trudeau about this from a personal perspective than I was. And she was pretty fearless in asking it, which I also appreciated,

while being extremely polite in the most Canadian way. The answer she got seemed to satisfy her, I will say. But I still had some questions about this, because Justin Trudeau and I are around the same age, certainly have not had the same upbringing, but around the same age. And his last episode of this was when he was 29. And I am pretty sure at 29 I knew that this was an inappropriate kind of thing. So I wanted to put that, use our similarities and put that to him.

Why do you think you had those blind spots? I don't have them. I have other blind spots, but I didn't have those at 29. I've always been someone who was very exuberant in my approach. I genuinely thought that intent mattered. I thought that because I wasn't a racist, I could do this and it wouldn't be a bad thing. And I did not understand back then, and I'm fully upfront about it, that it actually really hurt people. Let's move on to Conservative leader Andrew Scheer. The issue of affordability,

big one in this election. Well, he wants it to be just that, but yeah. And it was a big theme through all the Q&As. It was. Brian Stewart from British Columbia asked Scheer what he would do to put more money back into the pockets of ordinary Canadians. And Scheer talked about different types of tax rebates. He like immediately went into this. Bringing back the green public transit tax credit.

We're going to take the GST and HST off of home heating bills. We're going to bring in the green home renovation tax credit. That will allow you to invest. That's great, but my wife and I don't own a home. Like thousands of Canadians we rent. In the last two years alone, we've had to move twice because of evictions. And our rent has increased from about 35% of our after-tax income to almost 60% in 18 months.

We can't save for green home renovations, and the pursuit of homeownership keeps going away and away and away from us. 60% of his after-tax take-home. That was an extraordinary number. As you mentioned, the Conservatives have framed their whole campaign around making life more affordable. Did Brian seem satisfied with the answers that he was getting? Well, so Brian is from Surrey, B.C., which might explain why things are so expensive for him, at least partly,

and obviously was very nervous and very passionate about trying to get some answers. And I think he reflects a lot of Canadians' concerns that they're getting by, but just, you know, just. And he's in his 40s, his early 40s. The idea that he could ever own a home is pretty much non-existent for him. What Andrew Scheer told Brian... So one of the things that I've announced

is that we are going to rework the stress test. It's had a lot of unintended consequences. And we're going to bring back 30-year mortgages for first-time homebuyers, making that the dream of home ownership more accessible. Now, that is something that was in place back in 2008. And that Jim Flaherty, the former finance minister, tightened up because there was so much turmoil in the world and there was a housing bubble that collapsed. And so they moved to a 25-year amortization. So when Scheer, after he had mentioned these tax credits that wouldn't be of any use to Brian, when Scheer said, well, we've also got this, that was quite good.

Brian was quite pleased with the answer and thought that maybe there would be some opportunities for him. So that was an interesting moment because there almost was an answer for Brian. I find this discussion interesting and I know we could do an entire podcast around it because I know there are also criticisms of making the amortization 30 years because you could drive prices up because more people are coming into the market. So this issue in and of itself is fascinating to debate. If you can't afford it, then why would you, maybe you shouldn't be having a house for 30 years. It can, in terms of public policy, there's lots of questions about whether it makes sense. Talking about cost of living challenges, there was also this really great exchange, I thought, between Jagmeet Singh and Sunny Rajwan. And so Sunny, he's in the finance industry, I think. He was essentially pressing Singh on how the NDP is going to pay

for all of these promises that they're making to make your life more affordable. It's good to see that the NDP is coming around now and saying, hey guys, we'll give you $9 billion in national dental care program, a few billion dollars spent on the national pharma care program. Affordability is already hard, right? How do I know, how do we know how the NDP is going to pay for billions and billions and billions of promises over and above what we already have?

And what were your thoughts when you were watching that exchange? Yeah, he was good, wasn't he? Oh, so good. I actually just saw him in the hall. He was fantastic. And he wanted more than five minutes, actually, because he kept saying to me, I don't know. It's a strict rule. I think he wanted assurances that these huge, costly public services that the NDP is promising, mostly universal, whether it be daycare or pharmacare, would not come back to bite him in the butt or his kids in the butt later by having to somehow dig us out of a hole and raise his taxes. We'd actually increase revenue on the super rich as well as the wealthiest. Okay, so that means you won't raise my taxes? Not at all. Not at all? Not 1%? Not 1%.

And you won't rack up any more debt? No. We're going to, you know, close offshore tax havens. We're going to do all sorts of things that means that we'll have more revenue. The thing that Jagmeet Singh didn't and wasn't willing to talk about was what would be an acceptable deficit for the NDP and whether they're willing to balance the books. And until we see a costed platform from the NDP, I think Sunny can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Let's move on to Elizabeth May, leader of the Green Party. Unsurprisingly, climate policy came up in the conversations here.

And I also want to talk about an exchange that you had with May. What do Canadians need to give up in order to be good citizens on climate change? Our plan doesn't ask people to give up anything. It asks people to be engaged in a more meaningful connection to government as citizens of a country where they're in charge. But you've just said you want to get rid of fossil fuels. That's right. You've doubled the targets that the Liberals have in place to reach by 2030.

I don't see how you do those things without some discomfort. The discomfort is far more severe if we ignore the climate crisis. I give you that, but what is the discomfort that your plan would create for Canadians? I don't see it as discomfort to plug in your car instead of going to a gas station. So what do you make of that answer? Is that a realistic answer? No, and I don't think it came across as particularly realistic. Is there a climate crisis? Sure. Do Canadians want to do something about it? Yes. Will we be worse off if we don't? 100%. All those things are true. She's, you know, bang on there. We have a chance

to ensure our kids have a livable world. And all people ask me about is what we're prepared to sacrifice. Why is it scarier to talk about saving ourselves? But there is also multiple public opinion polls that show that while Canadians are deeply concerned about climate change, they are also deeply concerned about how it affects them personally and their wallets. So you have to find some sort of balance to getting Canadians okay in a space to fight climate change while not giving them too much discomfort. And that's partly why that liberal carbon tax only goes up by $10 a year because they can't shock Canadians.

Speaking of the carbon tax, this is something I've been wanting to talk to you about all week. There was, just very selfishly, so jazzed that you're here. So there was this very telling interaction for me between Andrew Scheer and a man named Marcus Harvey from New Brunswick. And it was this exchange over the carbon tax. He was saying that it wasn't changing his habits. Well, do you not see the rebate? I do, but, you know, for me, I've got three kids, one of them 6'3 and 230 pounds. He eats a lot.

So my grocery bill a month, a week can be $350. I'm spending, you know, money on gas, home heating, everything like that. The rebate, it's, you know, it's a Band-Aid. And for me, I was thinking that this highlights maybe this disconnect that we're seeing between cities and more rural areas of the country. highlights maybe this disconnect that we're seeing between cities and more rural areas of the country. So if you're in a city, higher gas prices push you more easily towards things like transit. For sure.

But for someone like Marcus, he's just paying more at the pump and he's not seeing any alternative. And he didn't seem to feel like he had options to make his heating bill lower. And he already thought that he was doing everything that he could. What were your thoughts on that exchange? He sort of embodies that push and pull, I think, that we're seeing in the entire country and that each political party is trying to grapple with right now, too. How do we recognize the fact that we are an economy and a country that relies on fossil fuels and at the same time try to move to a place where we aren't dependent on them anymore? So, you know, Marcus,

very conscious that the flooding that he has seen in his property year after year is probably climate related. For the first 40 years of my life, we've had four floods. In the last 10, we've had seven. If the water goes over the road next year, it'll be four in four. So I'm one of those climate stressed people. Cares about the climate. Cares about it, is looking for some sort of solution, but's got three kids and the carbon rebate doesn't feed them all. So is not sure how to balance those two things. For somebody who's middle class like me, it's hitting my bottom line pretty hard. So he was looking for a better answer.

He was very clear to me that he doesn't like the carbon tax, that that's not, he thinks, the way to go. And perhaps that is a rural-urban divide. He was very clear to me that he doesn't like the carbon tax, that that's not, he thinks, the way to go. And perhaps that is a rural-urban divide. But I think it also represents just a real struggle that people have. I know climate change is an issue. I want to help out. But also, I don't want to be hurting.

And there's only so much I can personally do. I've got to feed my kids. I've got to feed my bills. Going back to Elizabeth May for one more moment, I also found her conversation with Matthew Mazzafari really fascinating. This is a young guy. He works in the tech industry. He almost dropped out of school because he felt like the curriculum was outdated. What saved me was the fact that I started my own company. I started to apply myself further. When I was in first year, I made a bunch of friends. And then in second year, these same friends in computer science ended up dropping out. What I want to know is how you're

going to be taking this robot tax and investing it. Because right now on your platform, you claim that we're going to be putting it back into the education system, which is great, but it's more important to not just invest it into education, but to actually invest in building a new institutional framework for education. Well, first of all, let me just say the robot tax is one that is a topic for discussion because artificial intelligence and automation are going to make their bigger impact down the road. So we're forward-looking and we're knowing this is going to hit us. It's going to hit the world of work. We don't want to be unprepared for it. So we're not putting in place a robot tax like in the first year or anything like that. We

need to figure out what kind of automation requires replacement of revenue to the government. What was really revealing to you about that conversation? Well, first of all, Matthew was really smart about it. And that was on my list of questions too. The first thing that was revealing was the robot tax went from being a thing that Elizabeth May was going to do to a thing that she might start talking about and consider one day. So obviously, the initial response to the idea of a robot tax didn't go over particularly well. Right. Because she had already dialed it back by the time she got in front of Matthew. Sorry.

And just to clarify, this is a tax that would be put on companies that basically replace people with robots. I give Ms. May props for talking about automation and how we deal with that in the future. I think lots of governments and political parties are struggling with that. But she also didn't seem willing to consider the idea that a tax for automation might drive away investment. Why would a startup come here? How would that foster innovation? drive away investment. Why would a startup come here? How would that foster innovation? It fosters innovation because innovators and entrepreneurs are really looking at the idea. The best ideas come from people who are fascinated by the project and not always the bottom line.

And that was sort of the piece that was missing in her response. Lastly, I know we've already talked about Jagmeet Singh, but let's go back to him. Sure. Farheen Lakhani, a young Pakistani woman from Toronto, talked about how much she appreciates seeing Singh, a person of colour, in this leadership role, but she wasn't sure if he had what it takes to be prime minister. She was concerned with the troubles he has had galvanizing his own party. I was so impressed with Farheen. She was amazing.

We've seen high attrition rates. A lot of MPs have not come back to run. And we've seen that in the lower poll numbers. So how can I feel confident in your leadership that you'll be able to represent me, that you'll be able to represent all Canadians and execute on the vision that you've set out. I believe in Canadians wanting someone that's on their side. And I think that they've seen for too long that governments in Ottawa, whether they've been liberal or conservative, have been more focused on helping out the very wealthiest, the people at the top, and it's hurt families. And so what I'm about is not working for the rich. I

don't work for them. I work for people. What were you thinking when you heard that response? Well, Farheen impressed me as well. I thought she sounded like a journalist and I feared for my job. So did I. Quite a few of them actually. Yes. I'm like, oh, she's an investment banker. I can't do her job.

I think that is a real concern that Farheen voiced around Jagmeet Singh because he is not super well known in the rest of the country, Farheen voiced around Jagmeet Singh because he is not super well known in the rest of the country, because he did not have the easiest ride in getting to this election for all the reasons that she mentioned. And because he has demonstrated moments of leadership when called upon to do so. I'm thinking particularly of the blackface incident, which was a moment of leadership for him. I want you to know that you have value, you have worth, and you are loved. And I don't want you to give up on Canada,

and please don't give up on yourselves. But he has not probably demonstrated to Canadians what that leadership would look like as a prime minister. And I think that's what she was trying to get at there, and I don't think she got a real answer. Okay. She also pressed him on the secularism law in Quebec that prevents some public service workers from wearing religious symbols

and why he hadn't taken a stronger action against that. It struck me that Singh previously in the conversation talked about how he would stand up to Donald Trump because it was the right thing to do. He talked about how he would end armored vehicle deals with Saudi Arabia because it was the right thing to do. You picked up on this as end armored vehicle deals with Saudi Arabia because it was the right thing to do. You picked up on this as well. But he doesn't seem to want to interfere with what's happening in Quebec from a legal standpoint. I'm sure there's a federal government

can do something to influence that Bill 21. Yeah. So right now there's a court challenge going on. And that court challenge is very important. I support the right to challenge it in court. And that decision is going to be very important. I don't want to interfere with that decision. And what are your thoughts on that? I think it's a difficult position because Mr. Singh wears a turban and carries a kirpon. It is a much more complicated position for him than it is for the other party leaders. And that, I understand, is not fair.

He has said, you know, it's not right, it's discriminatory, it's hurtful, all those things. What I want to do is I want to win over the hearts and minds of people. I'm going to Quebec regularly. I'm going on TV regularly. Every question I get when I go to a scrum or when I'm interviewed in Quebec is about Bill 21. But at the same time, you're not going to convince people

to overturn legislation. It's there. The majority of Quebecers like it. So what would he be willing to do based on his principles if he were prime minister? And it sounds like the answer right now is not a whole lot. Right. He's definitely going to wait to see what happens in Quebec. And is that because he has seats in Quebec and he is worried about losing all of them, maybe. I want to get your final thoughts here.

You've done a lot of one-on-one interviews with federal party leaders. This was a bit of a different approach. What were your big takeaways that maybe we haven't talked about in this conversation? Well, a couple of things. I mean, when you do an interview with a federal leader, you come up with a structure for the interview. We couldn't really do that with this one because I had topics and names, the same as the leaders, but I didn't know exactly what the questions were. So preparing just for myself was challenging. It was hard because I was trying to catch stuff on the fly. So that was interesting.

for myself was challenging. It was hard because I was trying to catch stuff on the fly. So that was interesting. But the second thing was how grateful all those people were to get five minutes with these four leaders. I think it was Lystra from Vancouver, who was the first up to question Justin Trudeau, who summed it up for me when one of my producers talked with her after. It felt like the best demonstration of democracy that I've ever felt in my entire life. Lystra Sam, I remember her. That's such a wonderful thing to hear her say. You know, one big takeaway for me was from her when she said that she feels sort of invisible. As a single person who also doesn't have any children, I feel like I'm in a demographic that really goes under the radar. Nobody ever sees me. She feels like these parties are targeting like other groups and not necessarily her. So how great that she got this time.

I mean, those are experiences that are easily repeated. I'm probably going to get to talk to these people again. So to give up even a little bit of that time to put people who are making a really big decision in front of them. You know, I was happy to do that. Yeah, I feel like I got just as much out of listening to all of them as well. Rosie Barton thank you so much. Thanks you guys. See you soon. Okay so just a note to say the two party leaders were absent this week. Yves-Francois Blanchet of the Bloc, and they were not invited because the Bloc is not a national party. Maxime Bernier of the People's Party of Canada declined an invitation.

That's all for today. That's all for today. You can watch the full face-to-face chats with the federal party leaders online on the CBC News app or CBC Gem. For us, that's it for this week. FrontBurner comes to you from CBC News and CBC Podcasts. This show is produced by Shannon Higgins, Imogen Burchard, Chris Berube, and Elaine Chao. Derek Vanderwyk is our sound designer. A very special thanks this week to Laura Chatterjee. Our music is by Joseph Chabison of Boombox Sound.

The executive producer of Frontburner is Nick McKay-Blocos. And I'm your host, Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Have a wonderful weekend and see you all on Monday. day.