Front Burner - Families demand answers, six months after Flight PS752 downing
Episode Date: July 8, 2020Today marks exactly six months since Ukraine International Airlines Flight PS752 was shot down by two Iranian missiles near Tehran. The devastating tragedy killed 176 people, including 55 Canadians an...d 30 permanent residents. It also left loved ones of the victims desperate for answers about what happened. Back in March, former longtime Liberal MP Ralph Goodale was appointed as special advisor for the federal government’s response to the tragedy. Today he explains why families are still waiting for the plane’s black boxes to be analysed, and what’s stopping the Canadian government from getting more answers.
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Hello, I'm Josh Bloch.
You know, they were all our close friends.
It's so sad.
I want peace for the world.
That's it.
Today marks exactly six months since Ukraine international flight PS-752
was shot down by two Iranian missiles near Tehran.
176 body bags laid in rows in a farmer's field.
Families now altered irreparably.
That devastating tragedy killed 176 people, including 55 Canadians and 30 permanent residents.
It also left loved ones of the victims desperate for answers about what happened.
We went to the crash site and there was nothing. There was absolutely nothing left.
Back in March, former longtime Liberal MP Ralph Goodale was appointed special advisor to the Trudeau government on Flight PS752.
Today, he's here to explain why families are still waiting for the plane's black boxes to be analyzed,
and what's stopping the Canadian government from getting them more answers.
This is FrontBurner.
Hello, Mr. Goodale. Thank you for joining me.
Hello. Glad to be with you.
So, Mr. Goodale, it's been six months. Families are still waiting for answers. Six months is enough for official process. Do something immediately.
My point of view, everything is too slow.
My point of view, everything is too slow.
It's devastating and it's destroying us, basically.
We live day by day.
And Iran appears to be holding all the cards here.
I mean, they have access to most of the evidence.
They still hold the black boxes.
And for many family members of the victims, it feels like Canada has no power here to move this investigation along. What do you have to say to that? Well, it's a frustrating situation for
all of us. We're dealing with a country in Iran with whom Canada does not have diplomatic relations.
There's no rule of law as we understand that concept from a point of view of a Western democracy.
There's no direct access for Canada to the site.
Briefly, our Transportation Safety Board was there back in January,
but there's no direct access in an ongoing way to the site or to the evidence or the witnesses.
On the other hand, we do have a group of five countries that consist
of all of the countries that had victims on that aircraft. A number of countries have been willing
to assist Canada. And so we're going to continue. That's why I work the phone all day. Foreign
ministers of Canada, the UK, Afghanistan, Sweden, and Ukraine. And we are working in a very close way
with this coordinating group of countries
to make sure that we're all pulling in the same direction
because there is power and clout
that comes from this coordinating group
sticking together and working together
and applying pressure to Iran simultaneously
as a coordinating group and also through international
organizations like CAO, the International Civil Aviation Organization.
But our focus and our absolute determination is to get the truth and get the answers that
the families deserve and require.
So basically, this is a very complicated situation
in which Canada is forced to work within this much larger framework.
Yes, we do not have unilateral jurisdiction to intervene directly.
That simply does not exist under international law.
But it's very clear.
In those first few days after the 8th of January, when the prime minister,
I think, 48 or 72 hours after the incident occurred, called out Iran on the explanations
or the excuses they were offering that it was somehow a problem with the airplane or a problem
with the crew or a problem with that. We knew very well that the airplane had been shot down.
And when the Prime Minister put that in the public domain,
very clearly calling Iran to account.
And all Canadians want answers.
I want answers.
That means closure, transparency, accountability, and justice.
And this government will not rest until we get that.
Iran immediately thereafter admitted that the aircraft had been shot down
and shot down by an Iranian missile,
and that that was an unlawful act in international law, and that Iran was therefore obliged to provide reparations and compensation, and it was obliged to conduct a proper investigation to get at the truth.
I want to ask you about the latest news with regards to Iran's investigation into the downing of this plane. The head of the investigation, Hassan Rezaifar, has been replaced after a recording of a conversation he had with a victim's relative here in Canada was released.
I'm curious to know what stood out to you about that phone conversation.
Well, to start with, how totally
improper that conversation was. This is like the head of a quasi-judicial tribunal, if this had
happened in Canada, the head of a quasi-judicial tribunal picking up the phone and having a private
conversation, a threatening conversation in many ways, with one of the
witnesses or one of the victims. It was just totally, totally wrong. But in the course of
the call, if you look at what this official from Iran was saying, there were very damning statements
in that conversation that indicated behavior, if this official is to be believed,
behavior that was very contrary to law in every respect.
Right. I mean, the recording seems to suggest that Iran's highest authorities
may have actually allowed commercial flights in and out of Tehran that day
because closing that airspace would have exposed the fact that Iran was about to attack a U.S. airbase in Iraq.
He said, let's say we had cleared the airspace. Wouldn't it give away our imminent attack?
If that is in fact, and this, of course, is the subject of our investigation, but if that is in fact the rationale,
then that behavior in international law is absolutely illegal and wrong.
And when I've talked to the families, as I have done extensively over the course of the last several months,
they make the point that, first of all, compensation, reparations in these circumstances, that's important,
but it's secondary to getting at the truth.
The real justice was that my wife and my daughter come back.
But it won't happen.
I've said that several times.
But I think if I know the truth, if I can have a closure on this, if I can know the names of those people that kept the sky open.
And that's a large part of what constitutes achieving justice from their
perspective. And there are hundreds of questions, but there are two in particular that are
exceedingly important. First of all, what was the sequence of events and the sequence of decision-making that resulted in two missiles being fired at a civilian aircraft,
contrary to international law, that resulted in the death of 55 Canadian citizens and 30 permanent residents,
together with other victims from a number of other countries.
victims from a number of other countries. What exactly was the flow of events and who made those decisions or who failed to make decisions in that sequence of events? Secondly, maybe the
most important question of all, how was it that that aircraft was in the air in the first place?
This was a civilian aircraft allowed to take off in the midst of a dangerous conflict zone.
That airspace should have been closed.
Who made that decision not to close it?
Well, from that phone call from the now former head of Iran's investigation, it seems like he had a very different priority in terms of what he was going after. I mean, he was speaking with a family member of one of the victims, Javad Soleimani,
who was a PhD student in Edmonton.
His wife, Alnaz, was one of the victims.
I had to go to Iran to personally identify the burnt and crushed body of my wife
and then bury her and then leaving Iran immediately because the intelligence service
threatened me. And it seemed like Reza Far was more concerned about the fact that Soleimani had
posted something that was disparaging towards the Iranian regime on Instagram. I mean, what does
that tell you that the head of Iran's investigation into the crash was pressuring a family member this way?
Well, this constitutes foreign interference.
And we've had reports from the families of other instances, perhaps not quite as blatant,
but instances of intimidation, pressure, bullying, harassment.
So Canada takes a very dim view of this.
As you mentioned, this phone call really seems to underscore the criticisms around the legitimacy of Iran's investigation.
We spoke to Javad Soleimani, the man who was on that call with Reza Far,
and here's what he said.
What's your hope to negotiate and cooperate with the
Iranian regime? It's clear that the aircraft accident investigation board in Iran is not
independent and qualified to conduct investigation. Investigator in charge in Iran,
he contacted me and somehow threatened me to remove my Instagram post criticizing the regime.
And they are supposed to be independent, but they are not, obviously.
Mr. Goodale, does the Canadian government have any faith in Iran's ability to investigate what happened to Flight 752?
Well, we obviously have huge doubts about the credibility
and the legitimacy of the process. There is a process that's laid out under international law
by the various conventions to which countries have signed on as to what should happen in the
wake of an airline disaster. The rules, in the way that they are written and constructed,
don't really contemplate a situation where one country deliberately or accidentally,
but one country shoots down an aircraft. That is forbidden under international law. That is an
unlawful act. And the way the rules are written, they assume
that countries don't do that. The plane came down for other reasons. Well, we've got to take a very
hard look at those rules. Because when you're dealing with a circumstance like this one,
where the event occurred in a particular country with whom we don't have diplomatic relations,
where the rule of law is understood in a completely different way from how we would understand the rule of law,
where there's no direct access to the site or the evidence or the witnesses.
or the witnesses. And yet, the country where the incident happened is the country that is in charge of the investigation. We need to take a look. We, I mean the international community,
need to take a hard look at those international rules.
Right, and it seems like many of the victims' families,
in this specific case, want Canada to be doing more.
It's up to them.
It's up to the Canadian government to be on the right side of the history.
Why do we have to work so hard to prove ourselves,
to say that this is our right to know what happened. We think
you know, this is, you know, all the intelligence services, they know what happened, but they
don't share it with us.
There is this investigation by Iran. There's a second investigation by Ukraine.
You know, we spoke with Hamed Esmailian, and he's a spokesperson for the Association for
the Families of Flight PS752
Victims. He lost his wife and his nine-year-old daughter in the crash. And here's what he said.
Iran is not cooperative at all. We have had meetings with Mr. Gouda, with Mr. Champagne,
but still no answers. You know, Mr. Champagne says that he has a big picture of what's going to happen in future.
But I think we need to open a criminal case here in Canada as a parallel plan, as a plan B.
My question is why we haven't opened that here in Canada.
You've mentioned the international bodies that could investigate this,
but why can't Canada launch its own investigation?
why can't Canada launch its own investigation?
Well, the practical answer to that is that we do not have access to the site or the evidence or the witnesses.
And there would be no extradition possibility, for example.
So the best and the most efficient way to conduct this investigation
is to work with our international partners who find themselves in a much similar situation and collaborate together as a group to pursue every investigative thread we possibly can.
Ukraine has a very important role that we need to connect into because Ukraine is the domicile of the
aircraft. That gives them special status with respect to, for example, the examination of the
black boxes and some possession of the evidence because that airplane ultimately belongs to Ukraine. So we want to leverage all of these countries' strengths
to provide a more effective investigation
than any one country could undertake on its own.
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Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem.
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I want to ask you about the black boxes because you mentioned the kinds of questions that the
families want answers to. And it seems like the best chance of getting those answers is contained
in those black boxes. But they're still in Iran's possessions. It's been six months. Canada still doesn't have access
to them. It doesn't have an ability yet to analyze them. Iran now says they're going to be sent to
France on July 20th because Iran doesn't have the ability to analyze the contents.
How is Canada going to be involved in that process?
Finally, we have the commitment that they will be going to be involved in that process? Finally, we have the commitment
that they will be delivered to the lab in Paris, which has the technical capacity to do the
analysis. And under the international rules, affected countries like Canada are entitled to
be present for that analysis. Canada will be represented by the Transportation Safety Board.
There's a lot of people that are skeptical
that that delivery is going to happen at all.
I mean, what will Canada do
if Iran decides to delay again?
Well, the ultimate recourse then is to CAO.
And the International Civil Aviation Organization,
in terms of international cooperation,
is the agency that is responsible
for the protection and safety of civil aviation. And ICAO needs to defend its mandate and its
jurisdiction here. I mean, hearing what you're saying, I can appreciate the family's deep
frustration with just how slow this process is moving. It feels like Canada is bound by all these international conventions,
which Iran is just not complying to. Well, the international community needs to stick together
to insist on compliance from Iran. But the complications of an international proceeding
can be incredibly slow and frustrating. So sadly, these procedures in the international
arena take a painfully long time.
Another issue here is Canada's lack of diplomatic ties with Iran,
which is making it a lot harder for families to get information.
I know back in June, an Iranian spokesperson said that Iran had actually approached Canada
about reopening relations between the countries.
Is that something being discussed by the Canadian government right now?
No. Minister Champagne has been very clear.
We as a government, we will do everything we can to hold people to account.
The only thing we are discussing with Iran is the investigation from a safety point of view
and a criminal point of view to determine exactly the facts and what happened and who was responsible for either making it happen
or allowing it to happen.
We are having no discussion with respect to diplomatic relations.
Under the international protocols,
we work through other countries that have those diplomatic relations
to deal with issues like consular services and so forth.
Well, some families here have expressed particular frustration when they hear from families of victims in the UK
who are getting information much more quickly.
Well, we have established an open portal for information
which the families are entitled to consult at any time. It's an ongoing internet service for the families are entitled to consult at any time.
It's an ongoing internet service for the families to provide up-to-date information.
There is also a regular flow of emails where families send in inquiries
and either the task force within global affairs or myself personally
or Minister Champagne or Minister Garneau.
We answer those inquiries directly wherever we can.
You were appointed special advisor back in March and not much has changed since then.
I mean, not much has changed since the downing of the plane.
Families of the victims have been speaking out about feeling like they're dealing with this on their own,
that they feel abandoned by the government.
I talked to Mr. Trudeau.
Just tell him, you promised me, man.
You promised to bring us justice.
What happened now?
Where's the justice?
Well, I want to leave you with one more thought from Hamid Ismaili,
the spokesperson for the Association for the Families of Flight PS752 Victims.
I know Canada has a very bad experience with Air India in the past.
One of the reasons I think Mr. Goodall is advising the government to prevent such a thing to happen again.
So for them, years and almost no closure.
And what I see now, after seven months, we don't have the black boxes.
I think, okay, how long this is going to take?
The way this started and the way all the international organizations were silent,
my big fear is that all the families will be destroyed in the next
three, four years. That's going to be the end of the story. Mr. Goodale, Hamid is aware of the toll
on families of the victims of the Air India bombing, who are still without closure after
decades. Do you share Hamid's fear that waiting even three or four more years for answers is just too much for the families of these victims to bear?
Well, sadly, we don't control the timing of these events.
But we do control our own determination to work with the families for as long as it takes to get the answers that they need and they deserve.
We need to take all of that painful past experience on board to try to ensure that this time the care and attention is there to support the families for as long as it takes.
for as long as it takes. And Canada is determined to get to the bottom of why this happened,
and to ensure, to the extent that this is humanly possible, that the international rules are changed so that this pain and anguish doesn't get repeated again.
Ralph Godel, thank you for speaking with me today.
Very good to talk to you.
All right, some news before we say goodbye.
On Tuesday, President Donald Trump moved to officially withdraw the United States from the World Health Organization.
This is something the president signaled he was interested in a couple months ago,
when he alleged that the WHO was being controlled by China in light of the pandemic.
Well, Trump has now formally notified the UN and Congress, and the withdrawal is scheduled to take place July 2021.
The move has been widely criticized, as many states in the U.S. continue to struggle to contain COVID-19.
That's all for today. I'm Josh Bloch. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner.
For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.