Front Burner - Flight 752 investigation paralyzed by COVID-19

Episode Date: April 16, 2020

For months, the families of those who died on Ukrainian International Airlines Flight 752 have been searching for more answers about what led to the downing of the plane. It’s been an uphill battle, made even more so by the spread of COVID-19 in Iran, and around the world. Today, CBC senior reporter Ashley Burke joins host Jayme Poisson to talk about the human impact of the delays.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. The aircraft appears to be in flames, descending in the distance before a bright burst fills the sky. There was no mayday call. The plane veered off course and hit the ground. The evidence indicates that the plane was shot down by an Iranian surface-to-air missile.

Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. missile. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. 100 days ago, Ukrainian International Airlines Flight 752 was shot down over Iran, killing everyone on board. A profound sense of sadness across Canada tonight. Canadians mourning the loss of 176 people. Their loved ones caught in a tumultuous and tragic series of events in Iran. Everybody in that plane was somebody's daughter, somebody's son. 138 of the 176 people on the plane were headed to Canada. With everything that's happened in the world since, it probably seems like a long way away to most of you. But for the families of the victims, the wounds are still incredibly raw,

and their desire for answers hasn't abated. Attempts to get these answers from Iran, already in uphill battle, have now been exacerbated by the coronavirus, which has hit Iran extremely hard. Today, CBC senior reporter Ashley Burke on the continued search for answers in the downing of Flight 752. And what's at stake for the families involved? This is FrontBurner. Ashley, thank you so much for being here today. Thanks, Jamie, for having me. So from the beginning, the investigation into what happened with Flight 752, it really

centered on these black boxes from the plane. The black box has now been delivered and is being opened. The Iranians are saying that they're going to try and start extracting data from that black box. Which are in Iran right now. And before we get started here, you know, remind us what they might contain. Why is everyone so focused on these boxes? They're so focused on these boxes because I think it's all families have right now to pin their hopes on. These damaged black boxes, Canada hopes, hold the answers for grieving families. So there's two of them. One of them contains data about the flight itself. So things like the airspeed, the altitude, that kind of information.

And the other one is the cockpit voice recorder. And that would hold any sort of communication that might have happened last minute between the pilots on the plane right before the missile hit or between the crew and the air traffic controller. And I mean, we know that Iran says it mistakenly shot down the plane. So that's obvious. But I think what investigators and what families want to know is why. Was it intentional or not? People make mistakes, unforgivable mistakes. But it happened in the time of the crisis.

It took three days for Iran's government to admit the plane was shot down. It's the international community. All eyes are looking at Iran now. Iran has a pact to choose. And a lot of them think that some of those answers might be on these black boxes. Okay, and I know there's been such a tug of war over these black boxes and getting them analyzed.

I remember, though, several weeks ago, Iran promised to send the black boxes to France and Ukraine. The reason being that they don't have the expertise to analyze them. Iran does not have the level of technical expertise and mostly the equipment necessary. There were also lots of concerns about objectivity. And so what's happened since? Why does Iran still have them? COVID-19. This is the view of Iran the regime would like you to see. Beautiful shots of tranquil cities, people lining up in an orderly fashion to have their temperature checked at roadblocks.

The government attempted to downplay the spread of the virus. Not only did Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei not manage this situation well, he in fact denied there was any problem. He said the outbreak was a hoax, propaganda from Iran's enemies. So that came along right at the time when there was some progress. The Transportation Safety Board in Canada was, it was looking like Iran was going to take those black boxes to Ukraine and if they couldn't analyze them there they were going to take them to France. Iran is allowing the TSB to play a more active role than normally permitted for example by inviting TSB investigators to participate in the download and analysis of the cockpit voice and flight data recorders. But then COVID-19 came along and if you remember it Iran was one of the first countries that it hit really hard at

that time. And the country went into lockdown. And the TSB got word that, look, they couldn't travel right now because of what was going on, because of the pandemic, everyone had to stay home. So there was going to be a delay. And then, you know, last week, while Canada's in the midst of its lockdown, they hear from Iran where things are starting to improve there and businesses are opening up, life's getting back to normal, that Iran's investigators want to travel with the black boxes now to get this work done. And they asked all the countries involved,

you know, there's eight of them, when can you travel to meet us to do this work? And all the countries unanimously all said, look, we can't right now. There's travel restrictions. It's not safe. Can you please hold off and not analyze the black boxes without us being there? We need you to delay this indefinitely until we can all be there in person to make sure this is transparent.

Right. And we're talking about some of these countries have also been pretty hard hit by COVID. The United States, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Sweden, the Ukraine, Afghanistan are also part of this group. But, you know, Ashley, one question I have is why do they need to be there physically for this? Why can't they just like, download the information from these black boxes and share it digitally? You think, you know, I think a lot of people think you can just plug in the USB plug, put this into a computer and up pops information. But it's actually incredibly complicated analyzing these flight data recorders. They are all encrypted.

So in like strings of thousands of pieces of data and strings of ones and zeros. And it's really old school technology that's used to actually encode these. That, you know, not all countries have this lab with the specialized kind of equipment there to do this. Iran doesn't. So I think everyone wants to be there in person, really for transparency, to make sure that they can look over the shoulders to watch this, to make sure that they can watch how these black boxes are analyzed and downloaded. They go to the path of transparency, accountability, and taking full responsibility. When you say to the world, you take full responsibility, that comes with consequences. And Canada has special expertise in this. They've got two people that they are allowed with the Transportation Safety

Board to travel wherever these boxes go to be there on site to make sure it's done properly. Okay, I should say another lesson of things that you shouldn't believe when you see things on television. This is like a subplot or part of the plot of the new Homeland season right now. And it does make it seem like you just have to plug in a USB stick and then you can get all the data from these flight recorders. I mean, I think that's what most people think, right? But I was surprised to learn, like I actually went to a lab where they showed me how this work is done. And they actually use another black box that's made from the same manufacturer. It looks like a big bread box. They put the black box inside of that.

There's all types of cords and wires and it takes quite a bit of time. It's incredibly complicated, which most people do not realize. I know a couple of weeks ago, former Liberal Cabinet Minister Ralph Goodale was designated as special advisor on this investigation. And, you know, he's also speaking with families this week, right? So tell me a little bit more about his role and what he's doing. Well, the Prime Minister appointed him. It's an unpaid role, and he's essentially going to be the main point person for the families moving forward. With his decades of extraordinary service to Canada, including as Minister of Public Safety,

Ralph has the right expertise to guide our response to this air disaster. Someone who's going to be pushing for transparency and accountability and really focusing his efforts on helping families with everything from trying to get compensation from the airline to pushing Iran for compensation, pushing for access to the black boxes, all of this. He's been talking to families the last couple of days in different phone calls right now to try to figure out what exactly they want to see happen. We will spare no effort and Canada will not rest until we get a proper investigation, we get the transparency and the accountability that is demanded here.

And tell me a little bit about what the families want to see happen here. You know, I understand that you spoke with Ahmed Esmailian about these delays with the investigation. He was on our podcast a while back in February. He left such an impression. My main goal is to see the justice one day. He lost his wife, Parisa, and daughter, Rira. And how is he doing right now? What's he saying? He's at home in his house. I mean, because of COVID-19, he's in isolation there. And as you can imagine, he looks around his house and it's just all he sees are memories of his wife, of his daughter. Every day, every morning, especially when the weather is perfect for a walk, not for hanging out with friends.

And you think, okay, this is the same trail you used to go, this is the same trail that they used to bike. He looks out into the backyard and thinks about what they would be doing there. I mean, he's struggling with that. And he talks about the fact, I think when he was on your show, he talked about the fact that he had nightmares back then, and he's still having them. He pictures pictures you know seeing his daughter and this red this yellow jacket he she she wore and some nights i have

her yellow jacket in my hands and just searching for her in in like a in an open field I don't know. And there are fires everywhere. And I'm just shouting and just screaming, just calling her name. And it's really haunting him. And I think for a lot of families, he told me, you know, just being at home with your thoughts is really difficult right now. And the thing that they want is they want answers. They formed an association together, families here in Canada who lost loved ones in this plane crash to try to push for justice. But because they're not getting answers, they're not getting regular updates. I think there's a big void there and they're filling that in with rumors, he told me. And that's been really challenging because, you know, you can let your imagination go wild. They just want some sort of closure and they know that they might not get that.

They just want some sort of closure, and they know that they might not get that. Can you tell me a little bit more about these rumors that he says families are sort of filling in the gaps with? There's all sorts of things that have been unverified. I mean, I think there's rumors that a couple people were taken off the plane. Were they attached to the Iranian regime? I mean, these are all things that are unverified, but things that people are thinking about and questioning if it was intentional or not. Please go investigate and find what has happened that night. They want to see justice. First and foremost, they want to repatriate their loved ones.

They want to be able to rest them in peace. And I mean, there's so much suspicion from families as well and just mistrust. Like, for example, I've spoken to families who their loved ones' remains were repatriated to Canada and they had the remains tested. They actually asked RCMP, can you please test it? I don't believe this is my family members' remains and I need to know. The test did come back positive, but I think it just gives you a sense of the mistrust there. Right, of this regime. You know, and adding to that difficulty, I understand

that some of the families have reported receiving threats in recent months. And can you tell me a little bit more about that? How did that come about? Well, families, you know, some families have been speaking out pretty publicly on social media and in the media itself. You know, why was the airspace open on a night of heavy military activity? You know, how involved is the Iranian government in the actual investigation itself? So questions like this, and they've been quite critical. And some of them have told me that they have received what they call threats or intimidation and they blame Tehran. You know, for example, it's ranged from, you know, Hamid himself being bombarded by, you know, daily kind of hate mail from one individual that was going after other families as well.

He said asking him why he was betraying his country to other more extreme cases of, you know, people showing up at someone's doorstep as an act of intimidation. So you're kind of seeing these things that are happening in Canada. And one that really stands out to me too is Javed Suleimani. He's an Edmonton PhD student. He lost his wife in this downing. And he said that he got a call from a high ranking official, someone who said they were with the Iranian government, who spoke to him for an hour on the phone and at the end of the conversation tried to encourage him to take down some Instagram posts he had that were critical of the government. And when he said, no, I'm not going to take those posts down, a couple of days later, he said that his family in Iran was called as well by the government there. And he calls that a threat. I'm not afraid of them because when you lose your everything,

what they can do with me, I'm not afraid of anything. So I think it doesn't work for me and for many other members of family. Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's more than that, but it's something that's definitely gotten to the point where there are families here in Canada telling their family back home in Iran, tell the government, you don't know me, you hate me, you don't talk to me anymore. Are these threats being investigated in any way, threats or harassment? The RCMP is well aware of it. They've confirmed that to me.

I've also seen, you know, emails sent by the government to families notifying them, look at police, contact police if you feel threatened or intimidated. I've talked to Ralph Goodale about it as well, the special advisor. It's something that he is well aware of as well. So the big main message for families right now from all the authorities in Canada is to go to police immediately. Right. It's supposed to be so exhausting for the families, sort of this on top of everything else that they've already been going through to find themselves in this pandemic. You know, even just to think about what you mentioned earlier,

that so many of these families are grieving right now and they're also alone in isolation. It's really difficult to think about everything they're going through right now and they're also alone in isolation. It's really difficult to think about everything they're going through right now. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Ashley, you know, today marks 100 days since Flight 752 was shot down. And other than this Iranian-led investigation around the black boxes, could we see accountability come from anywhere else?

Because I know there are also tons of questions about who knew what, when, in the Iranian government before, but then also after the plane was shot out of the sky. Iran, you know, there was for three days they said they that they were not responsible. Iran's foreign minister acknowledged the protests and admitted the country was lied to about the cause of the crash but says even he and the president were kept in the dark. I as foreign minister and the president we didn't know until Friday afternoon. And then after international like mounting international pressure and satellite data that was coming out, they took responsibility and said that they mistakenly shot down the plane. And after that, Iran said they did make arrests. It's not clear who was arrested, how many people are arrested, but Iran did say that they were going to hold people accountable.

The president there, Hassan Rouhani, even said in January that he was going to call for a special court to be set up to probe the downing of this plane. He promised that the administration would pursue this case by all means. But in the meantime, Ukraine has launched its own criminal investigation. And since Canada doesn't have diplomatic ties with Iran, it sent RCMP officers to Ukraine to see how Canada could be of help to them. So RCMP officers are now helping basically preserve any sort of evidence that's collected outside of Iran to help with that part of the investigation. But it's not looking like Canada is going to be doing anything here just because of the diplomatic ties and how challenging it would be. I mean, it's not exactly clear what Canada could do. I've asked the RCMP for more details about that, but haven't been able to get the kind of information

we're looking for. But today, what's interesting is that families are upset because they have heard some reports that CBC hasn't confirmed, but from Iranian media, that there is some sort of memorandum of understanding that Iran is pushing to Ukraine and it's asking that Ukraine not proceed with a criminal investigation. If Iran says that they, you know, it was human error and they will give families of Flight 752 compensation and access to the black boxes if they do not go ahead and proceed with a criminal investigation, which obviously has upset families here in Canada because they want to see justice. That's the last thing they want to see. So I think there's a lot of questions swirling around that

right now as well. What can we do? I'm just like a normal citizen here or normal person. I'm not in charge of anything. I know I have some, you know, or other families, we have lots of abilities to do things. But for example, with COVID-19, we can't get out of home. We have to stay home and just work on the social media and just say that we are against any deal with Iran. We want them to come to an international court. We have to make them accountable. You mentioned these reports coming out of Iran that they might be trying to make this deal with Ukraine,

this memorandum of understanding. Has Iran been saying anything else about this investigation recently to try and address some of the concerns and frustrations coming from the families? Well, you know, the head investigator in Iran who's working on this on Flight 752, he does email me back sometimes. And he's, in a couple occasions, been very clear and pointing out to me that he does call this a joint investigation. He says he's working with these other, with eight countries, and that they are doing things by the book, that their information is factual, that they are going

to be coming out with a report when they have to by the one-year anniversary, and has been, you know, really talking about how he's been trying to collaborate with other countries, and they do plan to analyze these black boxes. So I think it's important to note Iran's response as well. And I understand that there is a vigil happening for the 100-day anniversary. I imagine this vigil obviously can't happen in person. So can you tell me a little bit more about what's happening there? Yeah, the families are going to be at 1.30 on Instagram live. They're going to be sharing photos and videos of their loved ones and some, I think, stories about it as well. It's going to be translated, but in English as well. And I think for just people to know, like, 100 days has passed, and this has meant that they've celebrated holidays and birthdays without their loved ones. And I'm just thinking of one instance of Ali Reza Ghanchi. He's a mechanical engineer. He lost his wife. He lost his 16-year-old daughter, his son, Parsa, who would have been nine this week. And he had to celebrate alone. And he went

to their gravesite this week. And he lined it with flowers and balloons and, you know, banners, birthday banners. And he actually brought this cake, this cake with white icing and a big red car on it and a red, you know, number nine candle. And he sang happy birthday there and played music alone with them. And these are the moments that are going by right now. So I think for them to come together online is at least something where they can kind of mourn this loss together. Ashley Burke, thank you so much. You're welcome. So like Ashley and I talked about,

Iran has been hit incredibly hard by COVID-19. On Wednesday, the government reported 4,777 deaths out of more than 76,000 confirmed cases of the virus. It's the worst outbreak in the Middle East. However, according to a new Iranian parliamentary report, the real death toll could be nearly double that official figure. This has long been suspected by international experts. This report represents a disagreement over the toll within the government

itself. And all of this is happening as Iranian President Hassan Rouhani pushes for a reopening of the country's economy. That's all for right now. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner and talk to you all very soon.