Front Burner - Former hockey pros describe the sport's dark side

Episode Date: December 12, 2019

NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman has responded to a string of allegations about racism, bullying and physical abuse in the league, declaring "we will not tolerate abusive behaviour of any kind." The fallout began when player Akim Aliu described being called the n-word by his then-coach Bill Peters, who has since resigned as head coach of the Calgary Flames. So, is this a moment of reckoning for hockey? Today on Front Burner, former NHLer Daniel Carcillo and former OHLer Brock McGillis talk about their experiences with the dark side of hockey culture, and how they think it can change.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. So it feels like there's this reckoning happening in hockey right now. Hockey Night in Canada co-host Don Cherry was fired. Then players started speaking up about racism, about bullying, about abuse. Calgary Flames head coach Bill Peters resigned,

but technically he wasn't fired. The allegation from former NHL player Akeem Alou that Bill Peters, quote, dropped the N-bomb several times towards me in the dressing room in my rookie year. Another player is alleging two incidents of physical abuse confirmed by his former team. On Monday night, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman vowed the league would not tolerate abusive behavior,

and then he announced a series of measures to tackle the issue. We will create a platform, perhaps a hotline, where instances of inappropriate conduct connected to the NHL can be reported either anonymously or for attribution for us to follow up. And then on Tuesday, the Dallas Stars fired their head coach over, quote, unprofessional conduct. So is this the start of real permanent change? To talk about that today, I'm joined by two former professional hockey players. Daniel Carcillo played in the NHL, and he is a two-time Stanley Cup winner.

Brock McGillis played in the major juniors, and he's considered the first ever pro hockey player to come out as gay. This is Frontburner. Brock, Daniel, thank you so much for being with me today. Thank you for having us. Yeah. Thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you for having us. So, Brock, I'll start with you. On Monday night, Gary Bettman, commissioner of the NHL, said the league will not tolerate abusive behavior of any kind.

Over time, we have been able to change the culture of our game as it relates to substance abuse and player safety. And while we have taken many important steps forward on diversity and inclusiveness, as well as respect and professionalism in hockey, we intend to do more and faster. What did you make of his statement? I think it's one of the first times that hockey has taken a stand in something that doesn't seem like they seem a little proactive right now in their approach as opposed to reactive. Right. The measurements they've put in thus far are good, but it has to be backed up with more. Okay, I mean, essentially he said that NHL teams can no longer deal with this stuff on their own.

They're going to need to report it to the NHL. So is that what you're talking about? You want sort of more of a framework? I want more from them in the sense that I would like to see humanizing of the issues. Because you see with hockey, it's so insular. They're in this bubble from the age of seven and they're segregated off in arenas um they they need to be engaged and educated on these different issues within the sport whether it's mental health abuse um minorities in

general or more specifically race and uh sexuality it sounds like you want more training, more sort of resources offered to kids. Completely. And it can't just be a top-down model or just an NHL model. It's something that they have to have happen at the bottom ranks in minor hockey. Okay. Daniel, what's it been like for you to hear this broader conversation about the darker sides of hockey culture hit the mainstream? Yeah, it's good. I think it's about time. I broke a story last year of the abuse that myself and other rookies, minors, had to deal with in Sarnia. Charles Amodio and Carcillo were rookie teammates with the Sarnia Sting.

Charles Amodio and Carcillo were rookie teammates with the Sarnia Sting. Amodio says he was picked on for his small size. Locked in the trunk of a car. Belittled daily by veterans and coaches. Just really degrading who you are. And there was no justification behind that. It was a power trip. And to Brock's point it is good to see that they're willing to step up and announce something. It's a little concerning that they're wanting it to be a hotline

that's going to be controlled through the NHL. I personally believe that a third-party organization should be appointed to be able to do their investigations free of the league and really get to the bottom of what's going on. Because, like you said, this isn't an NHL problem. It exists there, but really, where did Mike Babcock and Bill Peters get their start? Right. Brock, I see you nodding your head there.

And, yeah, for that matter, I think you're bang on, Dan. I think having an outside source, because the fear in hockey as a player, and I think, Dan, you know this, within the game, when you're entrenched in there, I couldn't come out as gay because I feared that I would get alienated or blackballed. Yeah, you would have for sure. Completely. Just like you couldn't, you know, share everything you went through then because the fear of the ramifications of it. I want to talk with you guys today before we go any further about what we're talking about here. Let's sort of define the parameters. So, Dan, you mentioned a story about your experience and the experience of other rookies on your team. When we talk about hockey culture and in particular the toxic parts of hockey culture,

what are we talking about here? Paint a picture me and i'll dan let's start with you i think we're talking about the way that we learn the sport and the way that these coaches are trying to teach and it's through fear it's very much a message of what's said in the room stays in the room you don't talk about your feelings are you hurt or are you injured you know so you just you push through and that's what makes you a strong man right by swallowing that and it couldn't have been further from the truth like when i transitioned into the real world because hockey isn't the real world i had to de-learn everything that i learned in hockey. And the only thing that I kept is my work ethic.

I think if we can get to a point of moving away from negativity and teaching through anger, fear, frustration, and we can get to a point through creativity and positivity and really love and caring about your teammates, I think we'll really get to a point where you won't see guys slashing each other on the head. Give me some examples for people who might not know. What was your experience with hazing when you were in Sarnia? Oh, my gosh.

It was brutal. It was the worst year of my life, and I got drafted to the NHL. We walked into the room every day, and we had to strip in front of our stall and 12 veterans would take a lick on us and some of them would whisper in our ear, if you flinch you're going to get another one. When you say lick you mean hit you? Yeah, hit us with the paddle on our bare ass as we're bent over in front of the whole room and then they'd go systematically one by one to each, and 12 guys would line up, and that would happen before every practice. And things like getting pissed on in the showers, getting spit on,

shoe, flex doll getting squirted on us. And then once the veterans were done showering, we could shower. Things like getting stuffed into a bus bathroom, which is very small, seven or eight guys, naked. They would throw your clothes in, taped up. You can come out when you got your clothes untaped. And they'd open the door and throw two cups of spit. So, I mean, just really degrading stuff.

And you know what that I've learned is that everybody knew about it. The guys that we were playing against knew about it. So if the players that we were playing against knew about it, that means management knew about it. And that means playing against knew about it. So if the players that we were playing against knew about it, that means management knew about it, and that means other coaches knew about it and other organizations. It's concerning. To Dan's point about the hazing, I had a teammate take a crap in one of my shoes on a road trip.

Why does... I'm sorry. I just have a hard time with this. I don't understand why this happens. Why does this happen? I've heard the story about getting put in the bathroom on the bus. I've heard these stories from friends. I just, I don't get it. It's ritualistic.

They're trying to show what it means to be a man and to fit in and conform to their world. For me, as a gay man in the sport who wasn't out, I mean, I embodied all the characteristics of what I thought it was to be a hyper-masculine hockey bro. I was a womanizer. I was incredibly cocky. I walked around like I owned every room I went into.

People didn't know, but I'd go home at night and I'd cry and I'd try to kill myself on a regular basis. And I think- I already heard that. And as things have evolved, what I've noticed, even going in the rooms today, is that I think the thoughts of youth have evolved. And I think exposure through social media and whatnot has, but the culture hasn't. And specifically the language within the culture has not evolved at all. When we talk about language, what are we talking about here?

Men tend to put each other down in especially male team sports and our experience both in hockey by feminizing one another or using homo negative language. That means you're less than. That means you're less than what it is to be a man who can play sport. And racism too.

And they target players of color with racist language. And that's happening even at the minor hockey level. I talked to the president of an association who told me, he goes, I deal with as many racist comments as I do homophobic comments. And that was in 2018. Dan, would you agree? Do you think that this is pervasive and happening today? Absolutely. And it goes back to a culture that's been normalized throughout, and really

the players in the 80s and 90s that look upon my stories and say, ah, you didn't get it that bad right um those are the ones those are the people who are in charge right now and if you think that they've dealt with their trauma you are sorely mistaken because they are still in this insular uh world that is the hockey world and they haven't stepped out into the into the real world like i'm living in right now like bro Brock's living in. And so if you're always asleep, it's very easy to pass on that cycle of abuse. I was guilty of it. I was guilty of the racist comments, the homophobic comments, the womanizing, all of that. And if you don't

hear people admitting to it or you see guys getting upset when we talk about this stuff, well, there's something there. To Brock's point earlier in this conversation, there needs to be mental health training so that we can recognize these signs and symptoms and then we can move into proper diagnosis and then care for it. Brock, I'll let you pick up here. Is what Dan is saying, picking up on what you were saying earlier

when you talked about this bubble, this sort of generation that perpetuates another generation. Is that the argument? Completely. And the issue is the people in charge that Dan's talking about, because they've done stuff, they also cover up what other people do. So, for instance, I had some athletes I was working with were on a minor hockey team last year. hockey team last year. Their coach was making sexual comments to them about masturbation, about holding his testicles when he was going to pee, different things like that. The assistant coaches all heard it. He would say, let's win this game for so-and-so's mom or his sister who

was underage. This was going on. Finally, the parents found out, brought it to the association. The association accused the kids of lying, got it to the association. The association accused the kids of lying, got rid of the coach for the rest of the year. Didn't ban him. He's still allowed to coach youth. This was 15 year old boys. The assistant coaches are still coaching right now. Heard it all. Didn't report it. Didn't do a thing. They protect one another and they don't know. And here's the other thing. A lot of them don't know any different. They don't know that this isn't okay because they've been in this bubble and like Dan saying, well, you didn't have as bad as I did. Then the generation before that who taught them maybe even had it worse.

So they don't even recognize the signs and symptoms of what's wrong here. And going back to Dan's point at the beginning about having an outside source come in to deal with this, the one thing I will say, there are a few people at the NHL that I really trust that have been brought in place and have come from outside places, like a Kim Davis, the new executive vice president of the league, who get it, who are from outside of the hockey culture and bubble. Social impact should be seen as a catalyst for business success, not an impediment or at odds with business success.

And that's the conversation that I have with owners. So that gives me hope. But yeah, having people within the sport police the sport and police the culture of the sport is very dangerous because they're immersed in the sport police the sport and police the culture of the sport is very dangerous because they're immersed in the sport. And you got to think too, from the age of seven, you're in arenas. The only people you see six, seven nights a week are your teammates and your coaches who are your influencers who have been in this culture. Whereas most other sports are played at school levels. So they're around, if you're on the basketball team, you're around the volleyball team, you're around the women's teams, you're around,

you know, the soccer team. Right, you're not in an arena 20 minutes away. Segregated in a room where you're just with people your age your entire life. Can I ask you, you know, I think there are people who certainly will be listening to this who might think to themselves, like, you know, that was not my experience playing hockey. I learned the importance of a team. You know, I've certainly heard a lot of young men talk about how hockey taught them to work hard. Brock, what would you say to people who think that maybe these stories you're telling are anomalies? Well, here's the thing. Every parent out there says they put their kid

in hockey to learn work ethic, to learn discipline, to have a coach, you know, learn from, have a boss essentially, and all these other great qualities. But what they're not learning is how to truly work in society. And they aren't being taught how to deal with people from the LGBT community, minorities in general, or any of these other aspects like social issues. And why not? Why can't we add that in as something that hockey teaches us and has the power to teach these kids so they are properly trained to go out? Because less than 1% of them are making a dollar in the game. Why

can't we teach them proper social skills and how to engage with people in society as a whole? And you don't think that that isn't happening or that they might be learning these skills from some of their teammates or from their families or even from some of their coaches. Dan, if you want to jump in here. Of course, there's a percentage of coaches that are doing it the right way, but it's a lot easier to yell at kids and berate them and degrade them in front of a room rather than looking at them in the eye and communicating with them. And to Brock's point, you don't learn communication skills.

That's what the game's for. That's what a lot of us turn to it for, is an emotional release. And so if coaches, again, like it's really easy for me to snap on my son, who's five years old, if I deem that he's doing something that's soft. And you think that's easier for you because of the history that you've had learning? For sure. The history that I've had and the way that coaches talk to you and they don't talk to you they yell at you so there's a power influx right they hold your dream in their hands if you get labeled at any point hockey's a small community as uncoachable

and you don't tow that line you're done so they know that this is not we're not whistling dixie here another coach just got fired. I don't know what for. Yeah, we don't know yet. And if you want to preach accountability, coaches, this is for you. Your number one thing is to hold players accountable. They're late for a meeting. They don't play.

Now it's time for you to hold yourself accountable and come out and tell the truth and get in front of it. Go get rehabilitated like you force players to, and then maybe you can come back. Maybe. Be a change agent. Be an ally and an agent for change. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection.

Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Dan, can I ask you, you mentioned before that you yourself became a bully. And so, you know, what was the emphasis that changed that for you? I actually, I was 25 years old in the NHL. I had two surgeries back to back and got over-prescribed and under-educated about opiates. And that took me down in about seven months. And so I had a choice to make, a life choice. I can either go down the path that I've been going

down and end up in more institutions or maybe dead, or I can get better. And I chose to get better. And I chose to try to extend my career. And first five years in the league, I went to the playoffs twice. I was on three different teams. I had four major surgeries. My last five years in the league, I went to the playoffs twice. I was on three different teams. I had four major surgeries. My last five years in the league, when I cleaned my life up and I held myself accountable and got rehabilitated,

I went to the Stanley Cup finals four times in five years with three different teams. Nobody's ever done that in the league. Ladies and gentlemen, the Chicago Blackhawks have won the Stanley Cup! For the third time in six years,

the Blackhawks are Stanley Cup champions! Congrats, that's great. When you live the right way, your luck is a sure thing. That's how I live my life now. And I've changed, but I changed in the league. So that's a possibility for people. Because there's programs that you can tap into. And I understand you've apologized to people.

That you feel like you have part of the process you have to make amends you have to make amends where it won't hurt somebody else so that's what i did to that point i i had a journalist call me about dan two days ago and he said what like, do you think it's legit? And I said, well, Dan is owning his stuff. And to become an agent for change and to shift culture, first thing you have to do is own your stuff. And, you know, and part of owning that is apologizing to the people you've hurt. And I think Dan's making people feel uncomfortable right now. I've been making people feel uncomfortable within the sport for a while now.

But the fact that Dan has said, yeah, I've done these things. He's not denying. He's not hiding it. It's not reactionary after it comes out. It's no, here's what I've done. This is who I am. And it's not okay. Dan, how are people reacting to you speaking so publicly about all of this?

You know, that's interesting to me that a journalist said to Brock, like, is this guy legit? That in and of itself is interesting. Of course. Yeah. I mean, people in the hockey community have a certain image of me because of my first seven years where I was a complete psycho on and off the ice. I changed my life and I don't have anything to prove to anybody.

You have to understand this about me. I want nothing to do with hockey. I'm not doing this to try to come back to the NHL or the NHLPA or the CHL or Hockey Canada. That's not why I'm doing this. I'm just a guy who lives in Chicago, who has three beautiful kids. I'm trying to be the best father I can be and the best husband I can be. And I'm just telling my truth. And I like telling my truth because it's like therapy for me. And I get to empower other victims to speak their truth to power. And they've never been heard.

There's hundreds of them. You mentioned your kids. Do you want your kids to play hockey? No, they're not touching a rink. No chance. No chance. It's funny. I say the same thing.

If I have children, they're going nowhere near an arena. I'll teach them golf. I'm not putting them near a collision sport. And if you guys think this is bad, wait until the investigative report comes out about brain health and TBI. Right. You think this is bad. We have other issues in hockey as well.

We're not just talking about the culture. There's also the issue of concussions and CTE. And that goes to culture too. That goes to culture and playing through injury. And Brock, just because what we're talking about today is the toxicity. And Brock, just because, you know, that's what we're talking about today is the toxicity. You know, what do you think needs to happen to break this cycle? If you even think it can be broken, you talked earlier about an independent body doing investigations. It does strike me from this conversation that you both feel that this is so entrenched that I wonder if that's enough.

I don't think it's enough. I think the first thing that needs to happen is there has to be a top-down and bottom-up model simultaneously in place where they humanize these issues. things within the sport and engage and educate players, parents, fans at the higher levels and coaches and management and get them to want to learn more. I think it is the first step to creating change. I think there should be independent groups in place to kind of oversee minor hockey all the way up to the NHL. I think because the reality is if this stuff's coming out at the NHL, they hold faith there. But every minor hockey kid is, and Dan said it, he goes, you're labeled as this by one coach at 10 years old, you're a bad kid. That's going to follow you the rest of your career. Do you think that this moment, this

reckoning that people are talking about, you know, these stories that, you know, players are coming forward with, that this is enough to propel that kind of change? You know, I also note, you know, there are some players that are speaking out, and correct me if I'm wrong here, I see no current NHL players speaking out about this. And that's an issue, right? You look at a guy like there's a player, and the culture, it's so ingrained in the culture,

there's a player that's been traded twice in the NHL, and from all accounts that I've heard, and maybe Dan knows differently, and I'm sure he'll know who i'm talking about i won't mention him by name but he's traded twice because instead of going partying with the boys uh on non-game days or after games whatnot he likes going to museums on the road he likes reading books right and doesn't drink. What an anomaly. No, but that's the thing. And here's the thing, though. They all do that. And we have to break

down that conformity, that construct within it. Also, using the word I instead of we and us all the time. You can have a personality. It's okay to be yourself. P.K. Subban is a prime example of somebody that had a personality, it's okay to be yourself. P.K. Subban's a prime example of

somebody that had a personality. Martin Ross over here, my minor hockey coach, who claimed that I better hope that hockey works out for me because modeling wouldn't be an option. That's what he claims. Anyway. And had a tough time breaking in the NHL. Villainized. Villainized.

Yeah, villainized. Just for being himself. Donates $10 million to charity and villainized in Montreal. So, Dan, final word to you today. Are you optimistic that you're going to see the kind of changes that you want to see here? Optimistic? I mean, if the only thing they're doing is a hotline, no, I'm not optimistic then. Guys, thank you so much for this conversation today. Dan Carcillo, Brock McGillis, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Earlier this week, we did an episode in the lead-up to Myanmar leader Aung San Suu Kyi's appearance in The Hague. She's a former prisoner of that country's military dictatorship and was once hailed as a human rights champion. Now, she's defending her country against genocide charges at the International Court of Justice. Here was some of her defense. Regrettably, the Gambia has placed before the court an incomplete and misleading factual picture of the situation in Rakhine State in Myanmar. Surely, under the circumstances, genocidal intent cannot be the only hypothesis. As we discussed on Monday's episode, the UN found that the gravest crimes against international law

had been committed and called for senior members of Myanmar's military to be tried for genocide. The report said more than 10,000 Rohingyas, the Muslim minority being targeted, had been killed and that more than 700,000 had been forced to flee their homes. You can find that episode which detailed Aung San Suu Kyi's fall from grace in our feed. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening and see you tomorrow.

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