Front Burner - ‘Freedom Convoy’ protests returned to Ottawa. What's next?

Episode Date: July 4, 2022

As many came out in Ottawa to celebrate Canada Day weekend, others turned out to protest for their definition of freedom — like thousands did in the winter when the so-called Freedom Convoy took over an area around Parliament Hill, protesting vaccine mandates and other COVID-related restrictions. But now, most of the COVID-restrictions have been removed, so what does this movement stand for? Today, CBC News senior investigative journalist Jonathan Montpetit on what happens to the anti-mandate movement when the mandates are mostly lifted.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. This weekend, as some crowds came out in Ottawa to celebrate Canada Day with some bonger dancing and Chantal Kravjasek, other crowds turned out to protest for their definition of freedom. Like thousands did back in the winter. When the so-called Freedom Convoy took over an area around Parliament Hill,

protesting vaccine mandates and other COVID-related restrictions. But at this point, most of those rules have been lifted. And so what does this movement stand for now? Today, I'm joined by friend of the pod, John Malpatie. He's got a new beat these days covering democracy and social movements. And he's going to talk to us about what happens to the anti-mandate movement when the mandates are mostly lifted.

Hey, John. Hey, Jamie. Great to have you. Great to be back. So look, there were protests in Ottawa this weekend intermingling with Canada Day festivities, and they weren't spontaneous, right? These were planned events. And what were they? What happened? Sort of give me a rundown. Yeah, so these have been planned for several weeks, if not months. that kick-started this series of protests and rallies over the weekend was the arrival in Ottawa of James Topp, who's this veteran, Canadian Forces veteran,

who's been marching across Canada, walking across Canada to protest the vaccine mandates. If you're carrying a flag, conduct yourselves accordingly. You carry it with pride. What that flag is about, what Terry Fox was about, with pride what that flag is about. What Terry Fox was about is about determination, dedication, and perseverance. So he arrived in Ottawa on Thursday.

There was a rally at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier as he came in. Oh Canada, we stand. And then on Friday, there was a march in downtown Ottawa. Culminated in rallying speeches on Parliament Hill. There was fireworks on Saturday, spaghetti dinner. So there were a series of small events organized by various different groups planned throughout the weekend. And just maybe for people who kind of shut off the news this

weekend, were there trucks? Were there any trucks? I feel like that's a question. Yeah, so there were no trucks. Ottawa police took a very zero tolerance approach. They blocked off a big area around Parliament Hill. They towed several cars. They made sure there were no vehicles anywhere near Parliament Hill. And so there was a real effort to try to minimize any disruption to the residents of Ottawa. Also, they had quite strict rules about permits in terms of where they could hold protests and rallies. Police fenced in the Supreme Court of Canada to stop protesters from holding an event there.

One group planned and then cancelled a kids picnic in a nearby park but a small contingent including Maxime Bernier still showed up. You know in the eyes of a lot of the Freedom Convoy supporters, it created a lot of confusion and really limited their ability to organize a bigger event. This whole police state thing going on with checkpoints across the bridge, you're not allowed to bring your car from Gatineau to here. Disgusting.

Is it fair for me to say that the protests we saw this weekend were a bit of a far cry from the convoy back in the winter? Yeah, we saw much fewer numbers than we saw back in the winter. The majority of the hundreds of people along Ottawa's Wellington Street Friday came to celebrate Canada Day, while a small contingent among them were anti-mandate, so-called freedom protesters. There were no trucks in downtown Ottawa. There were a few trucks kind of symbolically at a campground, but this didn't have anything like the numbers in the winter.

And to be fair, though, that was never really the intention of the organizers. I think the organizers were trying to use this weekend to kind of regroup, rally, consolidate some of the support. And even, I think, in the eyes of a lot of people who did attend, there was almost kind of a nostalgic element. There was a reunion vibe, I think, in a lot of the events, people who hadn't seen each other since the winter seeing each other again, reconnecting. And so a very different atmosphere, obviously, than during the winter. And what about the messages? Because, of course, back in the winter, what was being protested against, even though there was a wide range of causes, but it was genuine, unifying frustration with vaccine mandates and with mask mandates.

But now so many of these things have been lifted. Ottawa is set to announce an end to vaccine requirements for travel within Canada. The change will also apply to outgoing international flights. This afternoon, Ontario's top doctor confirming a target date for when Ontarians can stop wearing their masks. date for when Ontarians can stop wearing their masks. Because the trends look so good that we can anticipate removing mandatory masking by the end of March. Employers in the federally regulated transportation sector will also no longer need to have vaccination requirements for their employees. So what were we hearing from speakers at these events, from organizers of these events? So we were hearing a lot of different things. And I think one of the really

interesting things for observers of the movement was to kind of to listen to these speeches and to listen to what people were saying. Because as you pointed out, the principle that was so unifying in the winter was the opposition to mandates. Most of those mandates have been lifted. So what then unifies the movement? Well, we still heard a lot of opposition to mandates because the belief is the mandates have been lifted only temporarily, that they can be brought back at any minute. And so that they kind of feel is like an anvil hovering over their heads. Things are going in the right direction. But if they try this again in the fall, we're going to be out double the size.

But there is also, you know, in a lot of the speeches, an effort to, I think, redefine the movement around things other than the mandates per se. And so one thing you heard a lot was, you know, messages of accountability. We need to hold Justin Trudeau accountable. Now that could be, you know, that took different forms. You know, some people went so far as to say needs to be accountable. And, you know, and so they were calling on RCMP officers to arrest Justin Trudeau for treason. We're getting signatures on a, on a declaration to the joint committee, asking them to recommend Trudeau for treason.

And then, you know, at a more moderate end of the spectrum, people calling for convoy supporters to run for office, you know, to challenge Justin Trudeau electorally. So you got the sense from these speeches that it was a movement trying to redefine what are the kind of central narratives that will shape it going forward. Right. But it also feels like there's a lot of push and pull here, right? Like on the one hand, you have people calling for a bit more moderation, but on the other hand, there are people who do not want to be moderated.

That's right. And I think, you know, the big takeaway for a lot of observers of the weekend's events was the visibility of these tensions. And so I think one of the key moments was during the Canada Day rally just outside Parliament Hill, Tom Mazzaro, who was one of the spokespeople during the winter protests in Ottawa, he addressed the crowd, and he addressed the crowd saying, you know, we should be grateful to the police, thankful for the police. I want to tell you something about the police. No, I don't want to hear a boo.

I don't want to hear a boo. I get why you want to. I get why you want to boo the police. Just listen to the government. No, listen, listen. You could sense from the crowd a lot of unease and he started being cackled and heckled by the crowd. And then as he kind of went on with his speech, you know, kind of saying. I lost my job. I lost lost my job i lost my bank accounts

i lost everything too i live in my car right now do you guys know that i live in my car and you guys won't even shut your mouths for two minutes and let me get some sense into your heads people were really pushing back on him as he was trying to, in my sense, he was trying to give the movement a more moderate face. But there was a sense from the crowd, there were some tensions about that. And he, as he called it on the crowd to say, you know, check your ego, listen to what I'm, just listen to what I'm saying. You know, people in the crowd say, you know, Canada is lawless. And he was pushing back saying, you know, Canada isn't lawless. You're going to have to reevaluate what it is you want Canada to be. Do you no Canada isn't lawless you're gonna have to re-evaluate what

it is you want Canada to be do you want it to be lawless do you want it to be I don't think it is I don't I don't believe for a minute that it is I don't believe for a minute that it's lawless. And I think just that division is so key to kind of understanding where the movement will go next. Because I think many of the movement supporters understanding Canada as a lawless place, as currently lawless, as Canada in a state of despotism or tyranny is so key to their mindset. And of course, when you define Canada as in a state of tyranny, or you define Trudeau as a tyrant, you know, that legitimizes a whole range of anti-democratic responses. But if your view is that Canada is not lawless, but that there are a number of policies that are worthy of opposition,

then the movement gets pointed more towards the kind of democratic institutional opposition that we're more familiar with in Canada. Right, right, more mainstream. I think it's worth also noting here that there were some extremist messages and beliefs that don't have anything to do with the pandemic or pandemic restrictions. Not to say that that wasn't happening in the winter too, but there was at least one speaker who was spouting anti-trans rhetoric saying Soros who funds the transgender movement to the tune of millions and millions of dollars to confuse our children. That is not something I heard in the winter. I'm not saying it wasn't there, but I did hear that sort of anti-LGBTQ, anti-trans rhetoric, which feels like it's kind of the

flavor of the month right now in the right-wing media ecosystem. And what else did you hear on that? Yeah, I mean, certainly in a lot of the online discussion forums that I've been monitoring, there's a lot of anti-trans and outright homophobic rhetoric. You know, I did a story recently about groups and individuals affiliated with the Freedom Convoy movement sending hateful and threatening messages to libraries, municipal libraries across Canada, who were, all of these libraries were hosting LGBTQ friendly events. They were hosting drag story hour events. And so, you know, it's, it's interesting, you know, as the movement tries to find other things that it stands for beyond opposition to vaccine mandates, one thing that has certainly emerged is this quite radical anti-LGBTQ sentiment. And as you mentioned,

Jamie, there are certain parallels here between narratives that are coming out of the US and in the US. And so one thing we'll have to monitor is to what extent does this movement become defined by those messages as opposed to its opposition to public health policies? Yeah. And when it comes to leadership, a lot of the ones we saw in the winter, they weren't, they weren't able to be there this weekend. Some of them are actually in jail right now. Pat King, Tamara Litch, you know, I know that there were a lot of chance this weekend to free free them both do you have a sense of who the leaders are at the forefront of this movement

now is the movement just trying to figure that out i know you mentioned james top earlier yeah so i think what it seems to me that the movement right now doesn't have any unifying leaders. I think there are many different groups who are jockeying for influence. James Topp, I don't think, sees himself as a leader. I think he appeals to many within the movement because he presents, within the context of the freedom movement, he represents a more moderate figure, you know, somebody who has he's a veteran, he doesn't spout a lot of extreme rhetoric, and so seems to be kind of a friendlier face of the movement. And so somebody easy to rally around. But again, he's not somebody who has given any indication that he wants to lead

the movement. And I think beyond James Topp, you have different groups who are trying to vie for influence. And so one of the groups that's like heavily affiliated, very closely affiliated with James Topp is Veterans for Freedom. And so they tried to take a very prominent role in organizing these weekend demonstrations. And as they were doing so, they put out a number of guidelines for people who are going to attend these events. And these are guidelines included, don't hang the maple leaf upside down, which was something we saw in the winter protests. Another one was don't have the FU Trudeau flags, which again, we're so on the president of the winter protests. Yeah, big time. And so they issued these kind of guidelines for people. And then if you look at the images from the weekend, you saw, well, people were clearly flying FU Trudeau flags and other groups, you know, a group called Stanford, they put out its own news release calling on its supporters to fly its FU Trudeau flags. And so, you know, over this kind of seemingly insignificant symbol,

you know, there's a lot of tension, which I think reveals the discord over who is leading the movement, who is the one setting the narrative, who is the one setting the frames. And I think that's very unclear. It's a very polymorphous movement at the moment. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you. 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income?

That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Conservative leadership hopeful Pierre Polyev chose to show his support and walk with James Talk for a bit on Thursday. And tell me a little bit more about that and maybe the calculation that Polyev is making there. So what's the calculation there? Well, again, if you're a mainstream politician and you wanted to align yourself with somebody within the freedom convoy movement,

James Topp is probably the safest figure to do so. I think that he is advocating freedom of choice. People should have the freedom to make their own decisions with their own bodies. And that's why I think he's walked across the country. And that's why I thought I would give him a greeting and give him a hearing and see if he had any. Now, that said, you know, James Topp, he's somebody who was given interviews indicating that part of his objection to the vaccine mandate is based on mistrust of medical experts. And some of the people around

him, you know, he appeared at least on two times on podcasts hosted by Jeremy McKenzie, who's a figure with his own kind of, you know, background, somebody who's associated with the far right. Yeah, just for our listeners, the Canadian anti-hate network calls Jeremy McKenzie the de facto leader of the anti-government far right group Diagon Woman. He's called the white nationalist group Patriot Front in the US. Basically our American counterpart. He's currently facing a number of weapons charges as well. But he's currently facing a number of weapons charges as well. The experts I spoke to who were monitoring the movement said when mainstream politicians do something like Pierre Poliev did by walking a couple blocks, that lends credibility to the movement as a whole. Because Pierre Poliev, when he walked, he didn't give any kind of detailed explanation about what he was for or against in the movement. All we know is that he aligned himself with a figure who was kind of the most visible representation, you know, at this particular moment of the movement.

So, you know, in the eyes of many experts, the danger of this is that it risks lending credibility to the more extreme elements and the more conspiratorial elements of the freedom movement. Yeah. I also even in that crowd on Thursday. Right. So even in that crowd on Thursday, right, there's video Polyev shaking hands with Paul Alexander, a former Trump administration official, more controversial than James Chappie says he wants public officials who promoted COVID vaccines put in jail. But what do politicians like Polyev, other conservative politicians who are aligning themselves more closely, they obviously see a plus side here. So what is that? That's a good question. And I think the best answer I heard came from a professor, Stephanie Carvin, who has been monitoring the movement closely. She teaches at Carleton University. And one thing that she said to me recently was, you know, there are kind of three things that this movement has that would be attractive to any politician.

One, it's well-connected. Two, it's shown that it can raise large amounts of money. And three, it has energy. It has a lot of energy. And so that's very tempting for a politician to tap into, and especially a politician who's running for the leadership of a party, looking for energy, looking for mobilized supporters in order to kind of carry him over the threshold needed to win leadership.

Is it possible, though, then, that this is happening in an opportune time, right? Because they're in the midst of this leadership race, but maybe this movement doesn't continue to influence the party once the leader is selected. Maybe it's possible that they could be tossed aside in favor of a move to the middle here? question to answer right now, because both the Conservative Party itself and the freedom movement both have to decide who they are. They both have to decide what they're about. So the Conservative Party has to decide, is it going to adopt a more populist reactionary brand of conservative politics, or will it embrace the more progressive conservatism embodied by the candidacies of Jean Charest and Patrick Brown? And in terms of the freedom movement, it also has to kind of decide whether it will embrace

the more radical extremist rhetoric of charging Trudeau with treason, which, you know, that begins to resemble like a, a calls for a coup, or will it stick to kind of more generalized message of anti-mandate opposition and try to keep its message, say, vague enough in order to attract greater amounts of people? And I think fundamentally what the freedom movement needs to decide is what is its relationship going to be with our existing democratic institutions? Is this a movement that will produce candidates for office? And if it is, which party will they vote for? And what message will they use to try to get elected? And there's a lot of political

science research that suggests that as you embrace existing electoral institutions, you'll have to moderate your message in order to try to win elections. And so I think that's one of the things that we'll be looking for, which embrace of these two narratives, these two potential paths will the freedom movement take and which of two potential paths will the freedom movement take? And which of the two paths will the conservative party take? Okay, John, lots for us to talk about in the coming months. It is so great to have you back and also on this new beat. Thank you.

Thanks so much for your time, Jamie. Thanks so much for your time, Jamie. All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.