Front Burner - From Fox to the fringes, a rift in Conservative media

Episode Date: December 11, 2020

On Monday evening, Newsmax TV beat Fox News Channel in ratings for the very first time. Since Fox News accurately called the U.S. election for Joe Biden, Donald Trump has soured on the network in favour of smaller, more controversial outlets. And the outgoing president is urging his political base to join him. Today, CBC senior Washington correspondent Susan Ormiston reports how this fissure is shaking the bedrock of American conservative media, and elevates networks that further promote opinion and conspiracy over real news.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a very gracious loser. If I lost, I would say I lost. And I'd go to Florida and I'd take it easy and I'd go around and I'd say I did a good job. But you can't ever accept when they steal

and rig and rob. Donald Trump at his post-election rally last weekend. The outgoing president was in Georgia to campaign for Republicans fighting in the all-important Senate runoff race. But the crowds that came to see Trump, they had another message for the media. Fox News does not call the election. Don't trust Fox News. Even Fox News is crooked. Today, I'm joined by CBC senior Washington correspondent Susan Ormiston. She's here to explain why Trump has soured on Fox News in favor of smaller and more controversial

conservative outlets like One America News Network and Newsmax, how many of his fans are following suit, and the rupture it's causing in the bedrock of American conservative media. I'm Jamie Poisson, and this is FrontBurner. Hi, Susan. It's so great to have you back. Hi, Jamie. So we have to start, I think, on election night. It's election night in America and a nation in crisis is at a crossroads. We're counting down to the first exit polls.

When you look at the numbers in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, it really is the headline story at this point. numbers in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania. It really is the headline story at this point. As votes were being counted across the country, Fox News did something that I know made Donald Trump very angry. Take me back. What happened that night? Yeah, well, it was going on midnight on November 3rd, and I'm standing in the cold on a dark riser at the Biden parking lot in Wilmington, Delaware. And Trump's at the White House watching a map that's turning maybe surprisingly red. But at 11.23 p.m., Fox News, its decision desk, called Arizona for Joe Biden. Arizona, are you 100 percent sure of that call and when you made it and why did you make it? Absolutely. We made it after basically a half hour of debating.

Is it time yet? Because it's been clear for a while that the former vice president is in the lead in Arizona and was most likely to win the state. It was the first and the only network to do so for days. And Trump reportedly was furious. Fox, you know, is trying to figure this out. Its anchor called in the decision desk head, a guy named Arnon Mishkin, and said, you know, we're getting a lot of incoming on this. Explain yourself. And he basically said, look, he can't come back from this deficit in Arizona. And if he did, it was akin to frogs having wings. Biden at 53 percent, Trump at 46 percent. I'm sorry, the president is not going to be able to take over and win enough votes to eliminate that seven point lead that the former vice president has.

So here we have Trump's trusted ally, the channel that had done more to back him than any other during the last five years. And he was looking at it as, you know, Judas-like. What do we know about the scene at the White House when Fox called Arizona for Joe Biden? Well, I think everybody was watching the results come in. And there was one thing playing through a lot of people's minds, and that is that Arizona, if it went for Biden, which it did, ultimately, would be a flip. And a flip meant that Trump couldn't come out and say, I'm winning. He also couldn't come out and say, this is a repeat of 2016, when everybody

said I was the underdog, and here I am, I'm a superhero, and I'm going to take all these states that I did back in 2016. So it was critically and strategically important. So at 2.30 a.m., he comes out, he's made a decision. The election is a fraud. This is a very big moment. This is a major fraud on our nation. This is a fraud on the American public. This is an embarrassment to our country. We were getting

ready to win this election. Frankly, we did win this election. He'd set that up weeks in advance, of course. We'd been hearing the only way that he could lose, he told his followers, was if the election was rigged. So he came out and said it was. And, you know, he's got a long memory for perceived injuries. And it seems like he decided that not only was the election a fraud, but he would get his own back at Fox News. Tell me about what happened following the election. So Trump made his newfound distaste for Fox News very clear after this call. And what kind of rhetoric did he start tweeting? Yeah, I think we need to be careful that he was unhappy with Fox News throughout the campaign.

And it got sort of more pronounced as the campaign went on. You know, they were showing dismal results for him in their polling. And he said they should fire their pollsters. And, you know, Chris Wallace took a run at him during the first debate. So there was tension, but it really escalated after that moment and that night. Kellyanne Conway appeared on Fox and Friends and criticized the network. Arizona is going the other way. I know you're one of the only places in the world that called it for him. Many of the other networks and anti-Trump papers haven't called it yet. They're angry that Fox is rightly identifying Biden as the president-elect.

And so Trump and some of his fans are lashing out on social media. He started tweeting, which is the way he sends out his messaging to his supporters. You know, a couple dozen tweets in the week and two weeks following the election, essentially saying Fox News daytime, the news portion, are terrible. Their ratings have collapsed. You know, here's one. Fox News daytime is not watchable in a class with CNN and MSDNC, meaning Democrat National Channel, as opposed to MSNBC. And then on a recent Friday, when, you know, we're watching COVID cases in this country surpass 10 million, they're now over 15 million. He was tweeting how Fox News had forgotten that he was the golden goose. And then he, you know, said, hey, try some alternatives, maybe OAN and Newsmax. So he was turning his followers away from Fox, at least for the news part, and urging them to sample these smaller conservative players. Right. And speaking of his tweets, you know, I know that

he's like retweeting this bizarre video of Randy Quaid, the actor who does this like dramatic reading of one of Trump's tweets. It's all just very weird. Yeah. I mean, the text on the Randy Quaid tweet said, time to make OAN and Newsmax rich. And then he intones, you know, Trump's tweet, Fox News daytime ratings have collapsed. Weekend daytime, even worse. Very sad to watch this happen. Jamie, it made me think of that interview Trump did with Savannah Guthrie of NBC who said, you know, to Trump, you're not some crazy uncle retweeting you're the president. I want to get to these smaller conservative players in a minute. But you know,

the coverage on Fox News after the election in the news part of Fox News, not necessarily, you know, Sean Hannity or Tucker Carlson who come on at night. Did you see a difference in the tone and tenor of their coverage? You know, how did they cover these allegations that President Trump said that the election was rigged? Well, Fox is a conservative news channel, and you have to break it down between the news portions, which are primarily during the day up until about primetime, seven o'clock, where they have their talk shows. They actually have a Live at Five talk show as well, which is very opinion television. I just feel like you're going to hear a lot about AOC. I would put Pelosi in Georgia. I would take AOC. I would put Omar in Georgia, put them all right

in Georgia. And I just level them. Or maybe they can bring Hanoi Jane Fonda, who was giggling about COVID, that it was what did she say? Oh, it's God's gift to the left. But they're threading the needle here. They're looking at this and saying, OK, the president has a right to legally challenge results which he says are inaccurate, unfair. And they reported all that. And, you know, they lean definitely on the side of let's let's pursue the process. But they also had to recognize that Joe Biden has a transition team. He's naming appointments, dozens of them. He's getting ready to move into the White House.

That's the reality. So Fox is trying to thread that needle in its coverage. How has all of this changed his relationship, if at all, with some of the bigger names on Fox, people that we know he has a very close relationship with, like Sean Hannity? You know, I know Fox used to be the place that Trump would routinely call into. He is joining us by phone right now. Good morning to you, Mr. President. Good morning. Happy birthday. How do you plan to celebrate?

Well, I think I'll just work, if you want to know. He works very closely, talks often with Sean Hannity. Sean Hannity, come on up, Sean Hannity. By the way, all those people in the back are fake news. Is this changing how he works with some of the biggest names in conservative media? Not exactly. I mean, he, you know, very recently had an interview with The Morning Show host Maria Bartiromo. You know, very recently had an interview with The Morning Show host Maria Bartiromo,

and he still is communicating with Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson. Let's be clear, Fox is the number one cable news channel in the United States with an average of 2.9 million viewers in the first week of December. So it's a huge player. But he's picking and choosing whom to reward, whom to punish. And at the moment, he seems to be wanting to punish the news portions of Fox News because they won't climb on board his allegations, which haven't been proven at all and have been dismissed in multiple courts, that the election was a massive fraud. So they have not reported that. And so he's using the opinionators to help him, and he's dissing the news. What have we seen from his supporters who have turned their back on Fox News for reporting the truth about who won the election? You know, what have you seen in Washington? Well, you know, a week after the election was called, so mid-November, there were tens of thousands of supporters, a really big rally of Trump supporters in Washington, D.C. No commies in the White House. No commies in the White House. Trump 2020, baby.

It's a fraud. It's been stolen. It's been stolen. It was rigged. I believe that with all my heart. He will win, though. Once the evidence comes out. Yes. It's been stolen. It was rigged. I believe that with all my heart. He will win, though. Once the evidence comes out. And I was surprised at the breadth and the size of that crowd. You know, they said there would be a million. There certainly wasn't. But they were clearly still saying, this man's our president. We're not going to give up. We're going to be behind him. This election was stolen.

I believe in America, and I believe in what happened in this election is not fair. Now I see on the media them discussing there's no evidence of widespread voter fraud. It takes one vote. If there's one vote that is fraudulent, that's enough for me. And then some of them were carrying signs, dump Fox News and saying Fox is as crooked as CNN. I won't go as far to say that all Trump supporters have turned away from Fox. That's simply patently not true. We're talking about an incremental shift here to other players. And what I know from speaking to experts in the media and the partisan right media is that whole landscape is growing and has grown since Trump became president. There are far more players.

So it's almost like, you know, multiple screens. People are watching Fox and they're looking at other alternatives. Let's talk about some of those alternatives, other conservative programming. And let's start with One America News Network. The president once again shares his praise of One America News during his return to the campaign trail. Where'd you get your news from? OAN, baby.

OAN? They're a lot more honest than you. Even Fox News is crooked. What do people need to know about OAN? So OAN, One America News Network, you know, we reported on this last spring. It's a small digital channel. It's considered much harder right than Fox. Evidence of election fraud mounts as the

mainstream media and Democrats loudly insist Joe Biden is still the 2020 winner. President Trump won four more years in office last night. North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin are all Trump's. Even Arizona, which somehow has Biden winning, is rampant with voter fraud. Nevada, same thing. And it has pushed some conspiracy theories. It worked on a documentary with Rudy Giuliani in Ukraine digging up dirt on the Bidens. For this mission, One American News brought Rudy Giuliani. His hundreds of hours and months of research into what he calls the great political scandal of our time made him the only person to go with us on this trip.

Post-election, it came up with a documentary on how the voting machines were rigged, which Donald Trump retweeted. You'd hear the odd OAN reporter at briefings in the White House briefing rooms, you know, lobbing pretty fawning questions at Trump. But it's small. And then there's Newsmax. And tell me about Newsmax. How does it differ from OAN? Well, it's bigger. It's been around much longer.

It started in 2014 as a news channel. It's in the cable package of, it says, 70 million homes in the U.S. It's also streamed on streaming services here. So, you know, it has room. It has room to grow. And its CEO, Chris Ruddy, Jamie, is close to Trump. I mean, he runs in the same social circles in Florida. He golfs with them. You know, in the early days of the Trump administration, he was called the Trump whisperer. So he's got access and connections to Donald Trump. So it's not hard to see why Trump is rooting for News Channel. As far as I know, Newsmax has still not said that Joe Biden is the president-elect. I think he was very disappointed. He's told me personally that he wasn't happy with the Fox News coverage and, you know, the election night where they called Arizona, but they wouldn't call Florida and a number of other things. You know, they won't report on vote fraud. Newsmax is talking about that. So Chris Ruddy, he's really delighting in this stardust

that's being sent his way. You know, he told The New York Times, I didn't create this news cycle. Donald Trump did. But look at what it's doing for the news business. This is great. Look, I respect a lot of the people over at Fox. I certainly respect Rupert Murdoch for what he did in building Fox. He was a pioneer. Is that what you want to do, Chris? Do you want to replace Fox News or at least compete? We have the distribution now to compete with them head on. Fox was very schizophrenic, Joe, in this previous election. Newsmax was consistently supportive of the president. Talk to me about what it is doing for his business. You know, I understand that they've seen like a tremendous ratings boost. like a tremendous ratings boost. You know, we're talking about a bit of a David Goliath situation here,

but just on Newsmax, I mean, you know, last summer it struggled to get 100,000 viewers. One of its programs in primetime post-election got over a million viewers. Many leftists in the mainstream media and in Congress delight in your dread. They were the ones who encouraged and covered up for months of violence our nation was subjected to at the hands of liberal zealots. People will say, come on, man,

he's being a sore loser. He lost, didn't he? There's no evidence. Well, there's plenty of evidence. There's tons of evidence. In fact, there's ample reason to believe that his that the Biden family is in bed with China. Its viewership since the election has jumped 68% in primetime. Again, we're talking about much smaller numbers than Fox, but it's kind of like that little chihuahua nipping at the ankles of the Fox news. And anything like that makes Fox nervous. They don't want people taking a chunk out of their supremacy, really, in the conservative media space. So we are seeing definitely some astounding jumps in their viewership. They're hiring more employees as a result of what happened since the election.

Aren't they also going to announce some new primetime hosts, right? This is coming soon as well. Yeah, I mean, they're bulking up their offerings at night. This is coming soon as well. Yeah. I mean, they're bulking up their offerings at night. And speaking of hosts, I know that you sat down with Sean Spicer, who many people will remember as Trump's first White House press secretary, who is infamous for misrepresenting how many people attended Trump's inauguration. Photographs of the inaugural proceedings were intentionally framed in a way to minimize

the enormous support that had gathered on the National Mall. This was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration, period. And Spicer actually is now the host of a Newsmax show. Welcome to a special edition of Spicer and Company. I'm Sean Spicer. We are joined today by the President of the United States. Yeah, I mean, I would like to have fair press, basically, because the numbers are obvious. They're there. If I don't see it, if I don't go on shows like this and other shows, I won't get those numbers out. What did he tell you about the organization? Yeah, we had a great conversation. I mean, Sean Spicer is what he is. You know, he said he'd like to take that day back when he had to go out and at the president's behest, explain away the smaller inaugural crowds.

And he started out by chastising the media on his first day on the job. And, you know, and then he went on Dancing with the Stars. Dancing the Salsa with his partner, Lindsay. It's Sean Spicer. That's a star. And now he's got this primetime show on Newsmax. He started it March 3rd, just as we all went into lockdown. And he says he's also benefited from the stardust. His ratings

have gone up, too. He says it's because viewers are liking what they see, you know, a conservative take on the news. And he says the way he's different is that he's upfront and transparent about who he is. He's a conservative. He's a Republican. He's worked for the president. But at least we don't fake it. I don't try to tell you that I'm some unbiased journalist that, you know, I'm a conservative that wants to hear from all sides.

Everybody's straight up with where they're coming from. And I think that's a breath of fresh air for folks that they're not trying to hide their bias. When you turn into CNN, they'll tell you that, you know, that they're straight and, you know, unbiased, and that's just patently false. Yeah, I mean, I watched your interview with him. It's interesting.

Like, he's very clear he's not a journalist. This isn't journalism, what he's doing. Yeah, he's being very upfront about that, and he says that he considers all points of views and has Democrats on his program, but it's coming from a conservative line. I mean, he basically said on air after the election, you know, if we knew the stock market would get so great and if we knew the vaccine was there essentially during the voting time, boy, wouldn't this election have been different? You mentioned that Newsmax hasn't acknowledged that Biden won the election.

What does Spicer have to say about that? Does he think that Biden hasn't won the election. What does Spicer have to say about that? Does he think that Biden hasn't won the election? Well, don't forget, he's a former White House press secretary, so he knows how to walk around a direct question, which I asked him several times. He did say it's an uphill battle, that the president could actually claim that he won the election, but he has a right to do that. If the president overturns these electoral votes in this thing because of some impropriety, because of a constitutional question, what have you, then he will have won.

Does that likely? I think it's an uphill battle. There's no question about it. But does he have a legal right to pursue these challenges? Yes. That's as far as he would go. So, you know, he can see the reality of the electoral process, but until, you know, mid-December reality of the electoral process. But until, you know, mid-December, when the Electoral College votes are actually affirmed, and the 20th of January, when Biden is the president, they're walking in that space of things could still happen.

I'll see you next time. Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I want to talk to you about the consequences of this, of these outlets, these far-right conservative outlets that peddle conspiracy theories that will not accept the results of the election. Our colleague Keith Bogue was on the program a little while ago, and he pointed out that according to this political morning consult poll, something like 70% of Republicans do not believe the presidential election was free and fair. How do you think Trump's endorsement of these fringe conservative outlets plays into that? Well, I think to put it in context, Keith is quite right.

And just consider that 70% of Republicans and 74 million people in the U.S. voted for Donald Trump. So that's a lot of people. A lot of people are questioning whether or not Joe Biden is a legitimate president. So just rest on that statement for a second. When Biden takes over the presidency, there's a huge chunk of Americans who still firmly believe, based on the president telling them so, that the election was stolen. Do you think the president should concede or is it premature? I don't think so. I think we called it way too early. We need to stop watching the media and start getting the facts is what I think we need. Is it time for him to concede or should he fight on? He should fight on and never give up. He should fight on. There's

too much evidence of fraud. Too much. It's overwhelming. You know, I heard someone in Georgia say this week, you know, we've got to do something. Our liberty has been stolen from us. That's the kind of discourse that's going on that the president is pumping out and pumping out to whatever media will repeat it, will parrot it the most. And that's why he's, you know, circling in these other smaller conservative media who are more pro-Trump. And this is dangerous. Experts tell us that this disinformation in the U.S. has grown, that it has further divided the country. And, you know, polls will show us that the one thing Republicans and Democrats agree on in this country since the election is that it's more divided than it was. I want to circle back to Fox for a second, because here is this outlet that has had this tremendous impact on discourse in the U.S. It's widely believed that it played an important and integral role in propelling Donald Trump to the presidency.

Where does this all leave Fox at the end of the day? Well, Fox will be fine. Fox is big. And it's useful to remember that when a Democrat goes into government in the White House, Fox does very well. It's kind of their sweet spot, because it becomes, in effect, the unofficial opposition for all the conservatives in the country who failed to get their guy in the presidency. So once Biden takes over, they will resume that role. The real question is, what will Donald Trump do? You know, people have suggested that maybe Trump would start a television channel. It's unlikely, but he might do a show. And would that show be on Newsmax? I mean, the CEO has said, no, I don't want a business partner, but, you know, happy to have the president on at any time. It also depends on what Trump's future is. Will he run for 2024?

That's still a big unknown. And even if he doesn't, what role does he play as a kingmaker in the Republican Party? And you can be assured that he will use all the media at his disposal to help whatever he does going forward. He is not going to fade away. All right. Lots to keep tabs on. Susan Ormiston, thank you so much for this conversation. You're welcome. All right, so some Canadian political news before we say goodbye today. On Thursday, the Prime Minister spoke with the premiers, who are calling for $28 billion to be added to the annual federal health care transfers permanently.

Trudeau confirmed he spoke to the premiers about long-term funding and said that he pledged the federal government will increase its share of health care costs in the coming months and that officials will start to work on next steps. That's all for today though. Thanks so much for listening to Front Burner. It is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show is produced this week by Imogen Burchard, Elaine Chao, Shannon Higgins, Ali Janes and Jasmine Manny. Our sound design was by Derek Vanderwyk and Mandy Sham, and a very special thanks to Lauda Antonelli for technical help. Our music is by Joseph Shabison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of Frontburner is Nick McCabe-Locos. I'm Jamie

Poisson, and we will talk to you on Monday. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.