Front Burner - George Floyd’s murder, what’s changed in five years?

Episode Date: May 23, 2025

On May 25th 2020, Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd, an unarmed Black man, by kneeling on his neck for over nine minutes. The whole thing was caught on video and once it got out, it set America on fire. Protests spread across the country and then the world. Promises of sweeping changes to policing and greater commitment to racial justice and equity were made.Fast forward to now, five years later, and the outlook is very different. There are more Americans killed at the hands of police, DEI initiatives have been rolled back and President Donald Trump is taking actions to give police more power.We talk to Minnesota Attorney General, Keith Ellison, about calls to pardon Derek Chauvin, the current state of policing and racial justice and where America could be headed.For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

Okay, so I'm Tom Power. I host the award-winning interview show Cue, and it's not just about art. It's also a podcast that delves into conversations with artists as to why we create at all. Like you'll hear boy genius member Lucy Dacus open up about why she's dead dissatisfied with the way we talk about love. You'll hear Cate Blanchett describe what it's like to forget the sound of your own voice. And you'll hear how Coleman Domingo actually honed his acting skills in the circus. Listen to Cue with me, Tom Power, wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hey everybody, I'm Jamie Plessant.

This weekend marks five years since George Floyd, an unarmed black man in Minneapolis, was murdered by Derek Chauvin, a white police officer. The video of his final moments saying that he can't breathe and calling for his mom, while pinned under Chauvin's knee, reached people around the world. What followed was the biggest protest movement in American history. Justice! When do you want it? Now! What do you want? Justice! When do you want it? Now! If we don't get it, shut it down!

If we don't get it, shut it down! If you don't! Across the United States, we are watching protests unfold. Curfews now in effect in Washington, Minneapolis, Chicago, Philadelphia, Los Angeles among other places. Protesters took to the streets of Canada's largest city again today. We've seen these demonstrations across North America and around the world. George Floyd's name became synonymous with the Black Lives Matter movement that had already

been calling for the end of police killings of unarmed Black people and justice and accountability from police for years. Soon, we saw politicians, celebrities, CEOs all join the call for racial equity in every corner of society. And in 2021, Derek Chauvin was found guilty of second and third degree murder and second degree manslaughter. It was seen as a rare win and another sign of meaningful change. Five years later, where are we now? To unpack all of this and where we're headed,

I'm speaking with Attorney General of Minnesota, Keith Ellison. He led the state murder prosecution against Derek Chauvin and went on to write about it and the fight for justice in his book, Break the Wheel, End the cycle of police violence. Before he was attorney general, he served for 12 years as a democratic member of the House of Representatives and he was the first Muslim to be elected to U.S. Congress.

Mr. Ellison, thank you so much for coming onto the show today. Well call me Keith and I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me. Thanks so much, Keith. Okay, so before we get into the state of policing now, I just want to look back at this time five years ago. You are someone who has followed the issue of police violence, particularly against Black Americans for a long time now. And just what went through your mind when you first saw the video of George Floyd's

murder? Well, let me tell you, I've been following the issue of official violence from agents of the state, from all communities for years. In fact, before George Floyd was killed, me and the Commission of Corrections did a comprehensive task force over two years on reducing deadly force encounters with police. Despite the fact that I've been a lawyer for 35 years, I've prosecuted excessive force cases as a civil lawyer, I've defended people in criminal defense cases where they have been victims of unfair police conduct.

I was shocked. I, I, but despite the fact that I've watched and looked at this issue and studied it more than most wrote a book on it, I was utterly shocked. I was slack jawed and couldn't believe it. I, I, uh, I first saw it first thing in the morning. You know, it was 8 p.m On December on excuse me, May 25th 2020 when George Floyd was killed I saw it at 445 in the morning on May 26 because a courageous young woman named Darnella Frazier

Uploaded her video at around 148 in the morning I saw it and my staff said you got got to watch this first. And I just, I just couldn't keep my eyes off it. I watched it three, four, five, six, seven times. I don't know how many, but I just kept rewatching it. And at one point I started counting the number of times that he yelled for his mother yelled to breathe. yelled to breathe. I can't breathe.

Get up. And then I looked at the timestamp when he stopped yelling for his mother. Didn't say anything else. And then the people who were there assembled yelling, take his pulse, get off of him. What are you doing? Stop this. He's not responsive right now. Bro.

You're definitely a bum, bro. Tell me what his pulse is right now. Check my pulse. And I just couldn't believe it. And I knew that if I was waking up to this, then millions of other Americans would be too. And I had a feeling that we were in for some... some... that the community would not accept this.

Yeah, well, I just wonder if you could tell me more about that, right? Because as you know, it sparked the biggest and long lasting uprisings that America has ever seen and it spread around the world. Local governments and corporations adopted and funded DEI initiatives and vowed to do their part in ending systemic racism. So you know, just if you could tell me a bit more about why you think it brought on the reckoning that it did. Well, one thing you can't exclude from this is that video and how it was posted right away, the graphic nature of it.

And let me just tell you, I've dealt with a lot of cases where there's a shooting incident shooting incident now a shooting incident Often don't I mean they've been horrific, you know, Sonia Massey comes to mind Laquan McDonald shooting incident Walter Scott They come to mind but the ones where there's not a shooting but there's a prolonged Protracted injury to the victim that where the officer could have stopped it at nearly any time, but chose not to. So think of Rodney King beat 57 times

over the course of several minutes by four officers and 17 other officers stood around and watched it. And then think about this, where you had three officers on top of George Floyd, who are inflicting pain on him, obviously, over the course of five minutes or so. And then he goes silent, but then the crowd really elevates their voices.

And then that lasts for a longer time. He has no pulse, he's not being rendered rendered aid and at any given point along the line Those officers and especially Derek Chauvin could have said hey, wait a minute turn him on his side. Hey minute. Hey, wait a minute Let's start with you know, some procedure if we're legitimately here trying to restrain somebody who we suspected of a crime Why wouldn't we try to revive him? Well, they didn't, because their position was never legitimate. And so because it was long protracted

and we saw him die slowly on that video over five minutes, I think that really just fueled the outrage of people because it seemed cruel, unjust. You couldn't justify it by saying, well, I thought he was reaching for something. There's none of that. You were eventually tasked with leading the prosecution of Chauvin in the murder of George Floyd. Convictions of police officers, as you know well, are rare. In the case of Breonna Taylor, for example.

The 26-year-old emergency technician was in her apartment when police serving a no-knock warrant entered. Her boyfriend fired her shot thinking they were intruders. The officers returned fire and they killed Breonna Taylor. Last year, a federal judge... None of the officers involved were ultimately charged with her killing. And Derek Chauvin was, of course, found guilty of all charges, including second degree murder. And just what kind of impact were you hoping that that verdict would make?

Well, let me just tell you, I always said that this is not going to bring about justice, but it will bring about accountability. Justice is a bigger question. Justice is about passing the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act. Justice is about reducing the number of people killed in officer involved situations. Justice is about, you know, changing the policies, right, over time that make this such a predictable tragic incident. And we're still on the road to justice after George Floyd, quite frankly. I did know that if we didn't win, the signal would be, it's okay to kill people this way. It's okay to kill African-American people this way. It's fine, it's all right.

We don't need to change anything. That would have been the message. And that would have made our society infinitely worse. It would have been the message that opened season on the George Floyd's of the world. It would have meant Derek Chauvin who had 17 prior excessive force complaints, now he has another one, you know, and nobody cares. It would have sent a very negative message.

I also will tell you, I think it increased, it would have increased crime. And let me tell you why. Because once you destroy the relationship between police and community People don't trust and if they don't trust they don't open the door if the police are canvassing the neighborhood for a robber or a killer Or somebody people don't open the door. They don't tell you what they heard. They don't tell you what they know they don't tell you they don't respond to to to uh uh subpoenas as much they don't call 911 and say i just heard shots fired and so as the community uh stops interacting with the police people who

do commit crimes they know the relationship with the between the police and the community is bad and they up their activity and so you will see after a horrific incident of police violence, you might see an uptick in crime because the police step back and don't do their jobs. And because they're like, oh, I don't want anybody to accuse me of anything. Well, don't sit on somebody's neck for 10 minutes as they're begging to breathe. That's all you got to do. And so it would have led to more crime as well. Yeah. You mentioned the Justice in Policing Act, the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act.

So I think this was the bill that was presented by the Democrats in 2021, right? And it would do some stuff like restricting the use of military weapons by police, banning the use of chokeholds and no-knock warrants. It passed in the House, which was Democrat-controlled at the time, but it didn't make it past the Senate, right? Like... That's right. Well, hats off to Karen Bass, who made sure it got through the House.

Cory Booker did a valiant work trying to get it through the Senate, but he had no partner because Tim Scott could not deliver. Tim Scott was supposed to be his Republican ally and Tim Scott started out Saying oh, this is important. Let's do this, but he ended up just parroting, you know ridiculous tropes Like this is a defund the police which it really wasn't And so it ended up being stalled because of politics So yeah, I don't I don't fault the democrats on this

Uh, I do think tim scott could have been should have been A man of greater integrity than he was at the moment hate to be tough on tim, but That's my opinion the inability to pass anything Was a failure. Let me remind your listeners that after the beating of Rodney King in the 1994 Civil Rights Act we that's when patterned in practice Liability was passed and the Department of Justice can do pattern and practice lawsuits.

Of course, they're withdrawing from them as we speak, but the government that wants to do the right thing by its community can use pattern and practice authority. This time, Congress didn't even rise to that occasion. A VP at HBO said no one would ever watch Yellowstone. Stephen King was rejected by 30 publishers, Charles Schultz was told he'd never make a living scribbling, and Missy Elliott was dropped by her label. The stories of famous names, their lesser known rejections and the insights those rejections provide. We regret to inform you the rejection podcast. Listen to season six wherever you get your podcasts. I think that the question that I'm really trying to ask you here is where you think

the United States is right now on that path to justice that you were talking to question. And maybe maybe it's worth me saying like police killings in the US haven't gone down, but they've increased over the last few years. Right. According to mapping police violence, the officers accused of beating Tyree Nichols and an armed black man in Memphis to death in 2023 during a traffic stop were acquitted earlier this month. And this is another case where there is video footage of what happened, right? Yeah. Well, so the thing, here's the thing. Um, based on the things that you just identified, which obviously I'm very well aware of, one might say that everything's going in the wrong direction. I would submit to you that it's more of a mixed bag

than an all bad bag, right? So I would say because here in the state of Minnesota, the legislature moved to ban chokeholds, ban no-knock warrants, severely restrict high-speed chases and to strengthen the Something we call the post board police officer standards and training now has way more teeth than it used to We've in the city of Minneapolis We went from just having a freestanding police department to a department of public safety, which includes the police, 911, youth violence prevention, health department, so

that they can operate in a coordinated fashion. And we've, and we've elected leaders who are committed to meaningful reform, committed to the long-term process. You know, I do, I feel good about the work that Chief Brian O'Hara is doing. So let me just, so it's not all bad. In Colorado, they changed the law on qualified immunity. In Buffalo, the city of Buffalo,

they passed the Carriels law, which mandates officers to take action when they see another officer violating the law. And there've been a number of reforms that have happened at the state and local level. So while you are right that the number of police officer involved deaths appears to have escalated, not declined,

it's not true that nothing's happening, particularly on the local level. We need folks to know more about What positive things can happen at the municipal and state level? So that they continue to take action because I don't because let me tell you at the end of the day jamie police violence ultimately ends up in scared communities, intimidated communities, and communities where

African-American particularly are over police but under protected. Under protected is important. People like to say, oh why are those communities so crime-ridden? Well one reason is they have a crappy relationship with the police department because of a history of excessive force and no accountability. You fix that problem, you're going to have a safer community. Let me ask you your thoughts on what is happening at the federal level. J.D. Vance at the White House last week talked about — Last year in November, I think the American people killed the defund the police movement and they used Donald J. Trump as the murder weapon.

It is gone from this country and we we're never gonna let it come back. This administration will... And earlier this week, the Trump administration scrapped several investigations into police departments across the US, as well as reform agreements for police departments where the Department of Justice found a pattern of misconduct

that includes Louisville and Minneapolis. And last month... Yeah, I live in Minneapolis. Yeah, as you know, as you know, yeah, sign an executive order to direct the attorney general to launch a program that would provide free legal defense for officers accused of misconduct. And, you know, from your view, how are you thinking about what's happening on the federal level? What do you think the impact of all of this could be? on the federal level? What do you think the impact of all of this could be?

Well, I think that no doubt we'll have less safe communities. No question we'll have a higher level of violence because the relationship between police and communities will decline. No question. Let me tell you, there's 18,000 police departments in America. And nearly all of them are made up of

Mostly people who want to do the right thing and Because they reflect you society. There's always some people who don't want to do the right thing They became a police officer so that they could have a license to beat up on people and be rude violent and bad Now here's the question Will that department? Be dominated by the minority of bullies Or will they be dominated by the good faith?

Uh guardians there to protect and serve people that's the question We want the officers who who care who are the right who who stand up for people who go the extra mile to make sure community is safe. But when you start doing stuff like what Trump is doing, no pattern in practice investigations from the feds. You commit a crime as an officer against a citizen, don't worry about it, we got your back. Rhetoric that is hostile like when the looting starts, the shooting starts. This is interesting too, part two. These thugs, that is a loaded word in the United States, are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd and I won't let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz, told him the military is with him. Any difficulty we will assume control. And then again, an extraordinary line. When the looting starts, shooting starts the president of the United States he actually encouraged police officers to

use force against people when he gave a speech to the Suffolk County Police Department in New York in his last session he said let him bash their head against the door we don't care about that and when you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon. You just see them thrown in, rough. I said, please don't be too nice. Like when you guys put somebody in the car and you're protecting their head, you know, the way you put their hand over.

Like, don't hit their head, and they've just killed somebody, don't hit their head. I said, you can take the hand away, okay? And these are people who have just been arrested they're not even they're pre-trial You don't know what happened, you know, and so and so the so that kind of rhetoric is Is going to make our lives worse going to talk going to? Sour the relationship between police and communities and is going to make life less livable in America at the same time police and communities and is going to make life less livable in America.

At the same time, never forget that this is the same president that pardoned 1200 hooligans who tried to overturn a democratic election and injured 140 cops. One of them lost their eye. He doesn't care about police as people. He just wants to unleash racism and violence against people he doesn't like and he's proved how he feels about anybody black because the the the the apartheid people can come in the the africaners have are welcome to america and all everybody else has to get out even people who risk their lives to help our country like like the Afghanistan, like people from Afghanistan. So this is clear.

He's anti-DEI. I mean, the guy is, there's no doubting that he's just a racist. I mean, you've seen him disrespect the president of South Africa just the other day. To take land. No, no, no, no. To allow them to take land.

Nobody can take land. And then when they take the land, they kill the white farmer. And when they kill the land, they kill the white farmer. And when they kill the white farmer, nothing happens to them. Nothing happens to them. There is criminality in our country. People who do get killed, unfortunately, through criminal activity, are not only white people. Majority of them are black people.

And we have now been utilized. The farmers are not black. So many people in his administration have racial bias. He's made it, he's trying to ban the concept of diversity, equity and inclusion. And so, I mean, it's pretty clear where he's coming from. My point is, Trump doesn't care about cops. Trump cares about his vision of a society,

of creating a two-tiered society where if you're the right color and religious background, you get to have privileged status. And if you don't, all the better. You know, good luck. Watch out. I was curious to get your thoughts. The administration has expanded a program that delegates immigration enforcement powers to local police. So meaning police could screen people in jail

or during police stops for immigration violations or carry out ICE warrants on someone in their custody. And do you see... I see that as a... Yeah, that's a terrible policy. And why is it a terrible policy because again? Citizens need to see their local police as their helpers not their potential threat and if you are a woman who may be Undocumented but you're the victim of domestic violence maybe you're not going to file that restraining order against

your abuser because that might mean you have to engage with law enforcement, right? If you are a person who's been scammed by somebody, maybe you don't want to call the police. Maybe you don't want to go down to the court. And so when you mix these two functions between ICE and local law enforcement, what you do is you create a class of people who are going to be victimized by criminals because the people who need the help of law enforcement

have to think twice before they ever ask for it. Right. And this is a very dangerous situation. You have a problem here where a lot of people aren't sending their kids to school. I mean, it's, there's no really ups good upside unless, or until you had subscribed to the philosophy of, you know, replacement theory and you, you falsely believe that somehow America's white population is being inundated and attacked and undermined by all the brown people.

So you think it's okay to abuse brown people. If you believe that, then you like Trump. If you think that that's a made up story that there's no factual support for, then you've got to be against this. There has been a rumor going around that Trump will pardon Derek Chauvin's federal conviction this week ahead of the anniversary of his death. This is after, of course, high profile figures on the right like Ben Shapiro and Marjorie Taylor Greene have called for it. In a tweet this morning, the Republican congresswoman said she strongly supports

Chauvin being pardoned and released from prison. There is one person that President Trump should pardon from federal charges forthwith. It would be incredibly controversial, but I think that it's absolutely necessary. That person is Derek Chauvin. President Trump should, in fact, pardon Derek Chauvin. He should. He should pardon him his federal charges. There's no indication that he's going to do this right now. You and I are talking Thursday afternoon. But and I know that you have even pointed out before that he would still have to serve the rest of his 22 and a half year sentence in state prison, so he wouldn't get out. But how do you think the people in your state, particularly in Minneapolis, would react if

Derek Chauvin were to be pardoned for his federal conviction? They would be offended. They would be offended. They would be insulted. They would, they would, you know, know that, uh, that, that this is, uh, a horrible, ugly scenario, but, um, they of course would protest peacefully. They would protest, uh, you know, resolutely, but it would be a deep insult. There's no question. And it would insult the family of George Floyd. It would insult George Floyd's memory, including his daughter, his brothers, and his family.

And we would note that. And we would understand. And it would have an impact in the next election. It would have an impact in how people view Donald Trump and how they will continue to view him. So I will tell you this, people have speculated, well, maybe he wants people to sort of overreact and maybe or something like that. And then that'll justify him calling in the National Guard or something like that. I would say, well, we have to protest this. We

cannot let this go by and people think that, oh, we're all right with this. No, no, no, no. Can't do that. But we also are going to protest peacefully, resolutely, as we do. Right? Yeah. You know, I know in your book, you talk a lot about the important role of protesters and activists in bringing about change. But I'm just looking at how pro-Palestinian student protesters have faced expulsion, arrests, threats of deportation. Do you think that another mass protest movement like the one that we saw in 2020 is even possible under the current condition?

Oh, I think it's on its way. I think we might even have more protests. Trump remember, people were people were dealing with the madness of Trump, the COVID pandemic, and then this outrageous murder of George Floyd and people reacted. My opinion is that, um, Trump is where there will be overwhelming protests. People are already showing up in massive numbers at things. Um, I definitely think that, uh, uh, the, the public is, is going to want to express its extreme disapproval with Trump. Okay.

Um, Keith, I think that's a, uh, a good place for us to end. I want to thank you so much for your time today. It was great to talk to you. I hope you'll come back on. Oh, anytime you call me and I'll show up. All right. That is all for today. Front burner was produced this week by Matthew Amha, Ali Janes, Jorthish Ngupta, Lauren Donnelly,

and Mackenzie Cameron. Our intern is Katie Teeling. Our video producer is Evan Agard and our YouTube producer is John Lee. Our music producer is Joseph Shabason. Our senior producer is Elaine Chao. Executive producer, Nick McCabe-Locos. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening, and we will talk to you all next week.

For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.