Front Burner - Governor-General Julie Payette engulfed in controversy

Episode Date: August 17, 2020

When astronaut Julie Payette was chosen to be Canada’s new Governor General in 2017, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said she’d “...inspire generations of Canadians.” Now, there are multiple allegations of bullying and harassment at Rideau Hall being investigated by the Privy Council’s Office, and reports of unusual spending to meet Payette’s demands for privacy. Today, CBC’s Ashley Burke talks about the growing revelations surrounding Julie Payette’s role as Governor-General and what they could mean for Justin Trudeau’s government.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. I'm very pleased to announce that on my recommendation, Her Majesty the Queen has graciously approved the appointment of Ms. Julie Payette as the next Governor General of Canada.

In 2017, Julie Payette was chosen to be Canada's new Governor General. Ms. Payette's life has been one dedicated to discovery, to dreaming big, and to always staying focused on the things that matter most. These truly Canadian traits, along with her years of public service, make her unquestionably qualified for this high office. There was a lot of media attention about her extensive resume. Payette had been to space, not once, but twice. Booster ignition and liftoff of endeavor.

Very powerful symbol, not only for women in any field, but also for men and women in the field of science and engineering. Here I am, the flight engineer, so I have the best seat in the house, right in between the commander and the pilot. Now do buckle your seatbelts. But three years in, Payette is facing a growing list of concerns about the way she does her job. There are multiple allegations of bullying and harassment, which are now being investigated by the Privy Council's office. Psychologists were recently brought in to support Payette's staff. The CBC's Ashley Burke has led the

investigation into this. Today she's here to talk about the growing revelations surrounding Julie Payet's role as Governor General and what they could mean for Justin Trudeau's government. I'm Josh Bloch. This is FrontBurner. Hello, Ashley. Hi, Josh. I want to start by talking a bit about Julie Payette's career before she became governor general. I mean, can you remind us about some of her achievements? She's been to space a couple of times, for example. Yeah, and she spent 26 days aboard the International Space Station. She was actually the first Canadian to board it. Right here is where actually you can't see it, but I can see it.

My sleeping bag was strong. This is where I slept during my stay on the International Space Station and took part in its assembly stay on the International Space Station. And took part in its assembly by operating the Canadian robotic arm. This wide telephone booth looking box is actually a sleep station. Here's one of our space toilet. Here is a astronaut doing some exercise. She's also the first woman to serve as a lead communicator at NASA between the ground controllers and astronauts in flight. She's also had several positions with the Canadian Space Agency, including chief astronaut. And aside from all of that, Payet's also a pilot, was an academic, an executive, and a computer engineer. And outside of work, a classical pianist and a singer. She even won a Juno this year with her choir. She's their soprano voice. And she speaks six languages, including Russian.

She speaks French, English, Italian, and German, and is fluent in six computer languages. People often ask me why it is that I've studied many languages and I always reply, well, because it's useful. Because we're humans and we like to communicate.

Her list of accomplishments is long. So, it's obviously a really impressive resume. Justin Trudeau selected her for the role of governor general back in 2017. First, I must express my most sincere appreciation to Her Majesty the Queen and to the Prime Minister, Monsieur le Premier ministre, for the confidence they have shown me, but more importantly for the chance, the amazing chance, a second chance,

to serve Canada again. What do we know about why he chose her? Well, the National Post did some extensive reporting on this, and they said that the Privy Council office was looking at a handful of Indigenous candidates for the role. But late in the process, the Prime Minister's office told them to hold off that they had another idea, that they had heard that Julie Payette was looking for a job. And Trudeau saw this as an exciting idea. She's a woman, a trailblazer from Montreal, who's charismatic and a science nerd, someone who's gone to space. I mean, that scored extra

points with Trudeau, who sees himself as a science nerd too. But rather than using an advisory committee that the Harper government had set up to approve appointments, Trudeau ditched it. And he had his party do its own background check and went ahead in the fall of 2017 and appointed Payette. And at the time, he said that he felt she would do an extraordinary job and inspire generations of Canadians. I am incredibly happy that she has shown herself willing to step up in service to the country once again. And I know she will do an extraordinary job. And yet it didn't take very long after receiving that appointment that there was these pretty shocking legal issues from her past that arose. Can you remind us about what those were?

Exactly. Her appointment from the beginning was fraught with controversy. iPolitics published a bombshell revealing that Payet had a second-degree assault charge expunged. It dated back to 2011 when she was living in the U.S. and was accused of assaulting her then-husband at the time. The governor-general-designate herself won't comment other than to say the charges were unfounded. Then the Toronto Star came in and reported that Pyatt was involved in a fatal accident. A pedestrian stepped in the path of her car. That was also in 2011 and an investigation found that she wasn't at fault and was never charged. But all of this immediately raised questions about Trudeau's vetting process and what kind of background checks the party did. If the Prime Minister is receiving questions on what process leads to these types of nominations,

he should at the very least answer those types of questions and provide Canadians with an understanding of what goes into that. And I can assure everyone that there are no issues that arose in the course of that vetting process that would be any reason to expect Madame Payette to be anything other than the extraordinary Governor General she will be. We also now know through reporting by the National Post and Radio Canada that there was also a history of problematic behavior at Payette's last job when she ran the Montreal Science Centre that was to foreshadow the problems about to come at Rideau Hall. Before I get to some of those problems, I'm curious just to get a better picture of what exactly the governor general's position is.

I mean, it's a ceremonial position. I was shocked to learn just how large the staff is at the governor general's office. What exactly do they do? Exactly. There's about 150 people who work to support the governor general and also the operations at Rideau Hall, which is the second highest office in the country. And Payet's role is the Queen's representative to Canada. She does do a lot of ceremonial duties, including, you know, pinning the Order of Canada on recipients, giving royal assent to bills, greeting the royal family. She also travels the world meeting dignitaries and heads of state, giving speeches, working to advance Canada's agenda on an international stage.

But 150 people? It's a huge institution and it's steeped in tradition. They do a lot there. But the Governor General also plays a really important constitutional role. She's supposed to be a non-partisan offer. She's also someone the Prime Minister can ask to prorogue or dissolve Parliament, triggering an election. And she can settle disputes over who can seek the confidence of the House of Commons.

So all of this is critical right now during a minority government, which we have. In recent weeks, you've been reporting on what might have been going on behind the scenes while she's been in this role. There are allegations of her office being this toxic workplace. I know you've interviewed a dozen current or former employees who've worked under Payette. What did they tell you about the type of behavior that they witnessed? Well, this is a story my colleague Kristen Everson and I worked on together. And when it first aired, we'd spoken to a dozen sources. Now that's grown to more than 20. And these are people who witnessed or experienced the harassment firsthand. And they include current

public servants and former employees. And they told me that the governor general has yelled at, belittled, and publicly humiliated employees. Sources accused Pyatt of throwing tantrums at work. Many said that meetings could feel like interrogations where there was always a victim. And we're not talking about one incident, but sources said it's a pattern of behavior consistent throughout her time in office. And often it's centered around Payet's voicing frustration that she felt people were incompetent at their jobs and that she had to do everything herself. That's what sources said. They also said that she regularly made it known that she'd been to space and pointed out that she was smarter than them, even doing pop quizzes and asking people to name all the planets. And it created this culture of fear that reduced

people to tears. Employees have been seen crying, leaving her office after private meetings or sobbing outside in their car. Wow. I mean, I've heard these accounts of these debriefing sessions on the airplane returning from trips where, you know, these things could go on for hours and where employees were allegedly berated for the mistakes they made, you know, in their work on that trip. Oh, exactly. Many sources said that travel brought out the worst in Payette, that it was really a pressure cooker for bad behavior. They said that she routinely complained about being tired, underfed, and overworked.

And when they got on the plane home from these international trips abroad, she would allegedly criticize staff in front of their peers over what she saw as their many shortcomings or the ways in which they failed her. And as you said, it could go on for hours. And sources said that once people got off the plane, they would get into their cars, and there have been cases where some have just broken down crying. I should say that the people that spoke to you did so on condition of anonymity because they feared they could lose their jobs or that their careers would suffer. Exactly. I mean, these are people who have a lot at stake. And, you know, many have spoken up informally before and it didn't go anywhere.

So they have a lot at risk.. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here.

You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples,

I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Tell me more about the allegations. I mean, do they only surround Payet directly, or are there others among her staff who are also being accused of this kind of behavior? Well, the claims also involve Payet's second-in-command, Asunta De Lorenzo. She's the secretary to the governor general. Her job is essentially to run the administration of the office. And what's unusual is that De Lorenzo is Payette's longtime friend. They've known each other for decades. And sources

say Payette pushed to have her friend, who was a former lawyer, in this role because she wanted someone she could trust. But DeLorenzo is also accused of belittling employees, calling some lazy and incompetent. Many describe her as a bully and say that there was a tag team approach to the harassment at Rideau Hall, that it came from the very top and it made people fear going to work. And these kinds of allegations did not just emerge this year. I mean, I know McLean's and the National Post have painted a similar picture of life at Rideau Hall. Tell me about how far back this goes. This all goes back to the start of Payet's time in office.

And at the beginning, sources told me that, you know, employees chalked it up to a difficult first year. This can be a grueling, busy job. And there's an understanding that it takes time for any governor general to transition to this new role. What is your reaction to the perception and the headlines that seem relentless right now? You know, the governor general is looking for an out. The governor general is unhappy in her role. What do you make of this? I think criticism can be very constructive and can help further. I mean, there's no perfection anywhere.

There's no perfect picture. I don't pretend to be perfect. I started this job and I learned and I had missteps and those missteps I corrected. But over time, sources said the verbal abuse didn't let up. For some, it got worse. And sources told me that in a three-month period alone, roughly two dozen employees complained to management about abusive behavior from Payet and DeLorenzo. But sources said those informal complaints they feel went nowhere. And McLean's has also reported on the only public document that suggests there's an issue, which is an annual public service survey in the government. It found that for two years

in a row during Payet's mandate, that Rideau Hall ranked among the highest for levels of harassment. So for example, in 2019, out of 126 Rideau Hall employees that took the survey, more than one in five said they'd been a victim of harassment over the past year. And 74% of those individuals said it came from someone with authority over them. And what kind of mechanism is there for an employee who is experiencing this to file a complaint? Well, they have an ombudsman who doesn't have the power to hold investigations, who cannot register complaints, but can create a safe space for employees to talk about these kinds of issues. If there's a systemic issue, they can write a report. And it goes to the person at the top of the organizational chart, which in this case is DeLorenzo, who is accused of being part of the problem. So people describe it as what they felt like a closed loop system.

So you spoke to, as you mentioned, over a dozen former and current employees. I mean, what kind of effect did this alleged harassment have on the people that worked with her? Well, sources that I spoke to said that it wore away at people's self-esteem over time. They were questioning their abilities, their self-worth. It impacted their lives at home. There are waves of staff that got to the point where they quietly went on leave for their well-being or they left the office altogether. And during the pandemic alone, just as one example, five people in the communications department alone left, which is not the norm for this office. This is a place where some people can spend their entire careers. One source described

it this way. They said that it went from being one of the most collegial work environments in the public service to a house of whores. How has Julie Payette or the governor general's office responded to all these allegations? Two days after our original story aired, the Privy Council office said that they were very concerned and they launched an external review. So this involves hiring a third party that's going to be interviewing current and former employees to look into the workplace environment. And on the day that that was announced, Payette herself released a statement and said that she's deeply concerned with the media reports about her office

and that she's committed to ensuring every employee at Rideau Hall enjoys a safe and healthy work environment. She added that she takes harassment issues very seriously. She didn't deny the claims, but also didn't take responsibility for any of it. And since has sent a memo to all staff calling on employees to

stay united and said that she's listening to their concerns. And what about the federal government? I mean, I remember that Chrystia Freeland, when asked about this, was very clear that she had great respect for the office of the governor general, but she wouldn't comment on the behavior of this governor general directly. And that spoke volumes. My colleague Tom Perry asked Freeland twice if her government had confidence in Payette. And twice, Freeland drew a distinct line between the governor general's office and its occupant. I think Canadians have a great respect for the office of the governor general. And I have that respect as well. But for this governor general? As I said, I think Canadians understand and appreciate

the way our system of government, our constitutional system works. The governor general, the office of the governor general plays a very important role in that system. And it was the strongest signal so far that we've seen that the Trudeau government could be trying to distance itself from the very person that they selected for this role. Ashley, I understand you've also uncovered details about some pretty major expenses for renovations at Rideau Hall to the tune of $250,000. I mean, how unusual is that for the governor general? It's been described to me as unusual. as that for the governor general? It's been described to me as unusual. I mean, normally there's a fresh coat of paint, some new furniture, some tweaks to refresh this roughly 5,000 square

foot private living quarters for an incoming governor general. But these were projects that we uncovered that were centered around Payet's desire for personal privacy. And sources say that Payet is deeply uncomfortable with the near constant presence of staff, of RCMP security, and the public at Rideau Hall. A lot of people don't know this, but the grounds are largely open, and in the summer it's used as a public park. There are also tour groups that come into Rideau Hall that are able to go in certain areas. And sources said that this was an issue for Piette. Earlier in her mandate, Piette had this idea that if she was to move into the private quarters, that she wanted a cat door

on the second floor so that her pets could go outside. And then over time that idea grew and it changed into a private staircase so Piat could get from the private quarters down to the garden without anyone seeing her. That's what sources told me. And the National Capital Commission, which manages the property, spent more than $140,000 in public funds to design and study this plan. And in the end, the staircase was never built. Rideau Hall called off the project before construction started. And three years into Payette's time in office, she still hasn't moved into her official residence. Instead, she's living just outside the gates at Rideau Hall in an official guest house that's supposed to be used for foreign heads of states and dignitaries that are visiting Canada.

You know, and another detail that jumped out to me in your story was the lengths that she was allegedly going to keep maintenance workers and even the RCMP that are there to protect Payette out of her line of sight. Payette has asked RCMP to move down the hallway from her office so she can't see them outside her door and to keep maintenance workers and others out. She's had a series of access doors and a gate installed around her office. So now only select staff, if they have an access card or a fob, can go into this sort of restricted area where she works.

And in total, this project costs $117,000. Sources said that the RCMP didn't require it. It wasn't for safety. It was for Payet's privacy. You know, it strikes me that the picture you're painting of Payet and her, it seems like her uncomfortability with being in the public eye. I mean, it makes me wonder why she decided to take on this position in the first place. The governor general's job is a very public position, as you mentioned, and it requires being in the public eye a lot.

What do you think's behind that? Well, she did a long interview with CTV after her first year in office, and she said that she took less than 24 hours to think about taking this role. Were you looking for a role in government? Not at all. Not at all. Or is it the kind of thing you can't say no to? I don't understand, you know. It is the kind of thing you can't say no to. So I didn't, I asked a number of questions and I did talk to a number of people, but I didn't wait very long, less than 24 hours. I think it is very important if you, and I truly believe that if your country calls, there's only one answer possible.

I think perhaps she has said that she didn't quite understand all that went along with this role. So perhaps she wasn't aware of just the public scrutiny and the public attention that comes with it. I'm wondering what kind of political impact you think that this could have on Justin Trudeau, you know, as these controversies continue to snowball. Well, the initial impact of the story is that it casts a negative light on Trudeau's judgment. He was the one that picked Payet. This was also one of his signature appointments during his first mandate.

But the larger impact of all this, it's still unseen and it's still looming. Since Trudeau's top public servant has launched this review into Rideau Hall, the prime minister has not come to Payet's defense even once. He's really left her on her own to deal with this, which suggests that perhaps he's even having second thoughts about his own judgment. Do you think there's a chance that Payet could be fired? Well, the only way that she could lose her job is if the queen recalls her, and that would be unprecedented and it would go down in history books. One constitutional expert calls it the nuclear option and said, don't count on it. But noted that the more likely possibility could be that the governor general could resign. But even if Trudeau has a talk with Payet behind closed doors and perhaps asked her to step down, she's under no obligation to do so.

So the Privy Council has launched this investigation. When do you think we'll see results from it? Well, these claims span Payet's entire time in office so far. And an expert on workplace bullying investigations that I spoke to said this kind of review could be complex. It could be lengthy and estimates it could take at least a year or even more. There's still a lot of questions about what this investigation looks like, what private company they're going to be hiring to do it. You know, we email them on a regular basis, but we're still waiting to find out what the terms are of this that are being negotiated with Rideau Hall. What are the employees that you, the former and current employees that you spoke with about the issues in the office, what do they hope comes of that investigation?

They hope that there's change for employees working there. investigation? They hope that there's change for employees working there. You know, a lot of sources spoke to me because they had concerns about employees that are still in that office that they say are, you know, are really emotionally impacted by all of this. And there's a concern right now that nothing's going to change. There's a concern that, you know, after the last time there was a series of negative stories that came out after her first year in office, that there was a hunt in the office to look for the mole who was talking to media. And there's concerns that this could get worse before it gets better. Ashley Burke, thank you so much for speaking with me.

Thanks for having me on. CBC's Ashley Burke has another story coming out very soon about the governor-general's difficult relationship with her protective detail. You'll find that at cbcnews.ca. That's all for today. Talk to you tomorrow.