Front Burner - Governor General out amid claims of harassment, verbal abuse

Episode Date: January 22, 2021

Gov. Gen. Julie Payette has been accused of bullying, berating, and publicly humiliating staff at Rideau Hall. The allegations were substantial enough that an independent workplace review was ordered last year. On Thursday, it was revealed that that review had been completed, and that its findings were scathing. Late in the afternoon, Payette resigned from her position as the Queen’s representative. Today, Power and Politics host Vassy Kapelos explains Payette’s resignation.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. She's been accused of bullying, berating, and publicly humiliating staff at Rideau Hall. The allegations were substantial enough that an independent workplace review was ordered. Yesterday, it was revealed that that review had been completed and that the findings were scathing. And so late in the afternoon, Canada's Governor General Julie

Payette resigned from her position as the Queen's representative. Today, my colleague, power and politics host Vashika Pelos is here to break down the big news. This is FrontBurner. Oh, hello, Vashi. Hello, Jamie. Thank you very much for being here on this Thursday evening. I wouldn't be anywhere else. Happy to be here. So, look, just to start, this is, I think, quite a prominent, significant resignation, right? Hugely significant resignation. This is a really big deal. This is a person who maybe not every Canadian is intimately familiar with, doesn't know perhaps as well as they know

the Prime Minister. But it's kind of when you look at the way our parliament is set up and the system we operate under, it's actually like the top position. It's the queen's representative in this country. So to A, resign, but B, resign under these circumstances, it's a big deal. Right. And so, look, this resignation is coming in the wake of a report. An independent consulting firm had been brought in because of reports of a toxic workplace at Rideau Hall. And what do we know about what that report found? Well, what I can say first is that we have, I haven't personally looked at the contents of that report,

but myself and my colleagues have spoken to people who have either seen the contents or been briefed on the contents. And the one word that we kept hearing myself and my colleagues have spoken to people who have either seen the contents or been briefed on the contents. And the one word that we kept hearing over and over again was scathing. And that it also echoed what reporting from our colleagues months ago had outlined, which is that, yes, there was a toxic work environment. Yes, Governor General Payet or now former Governor General Payet contributed in a really significant way to creating that environment and that employees were genuinely belittled and bullied and treated in a way that they shouldn't have been. And in fact, the minister who kind of oversaw this whole process, Dominic LeBlanc, called the conclusions of the report disturbing. So I think it's fair to say it's in line with what had been alleged. Right, right. And, you know, you mentioned our

colleagues, including our own Ashley Burke, and some of those details, Julie Payette, the Governor General, calling one person's work shit. Staff have described some humiliating scenes on plane rides, right? What else? What else did we hear specifically? Yeah, the list is so long. So what happened, Ashley Burke and Kristen Everson, who have like props to the millionth degree, doggedly pursued this story for months. More than 12 sources initially spoke to them and they kind of detailed all these stories about like what kind of work environment it was. So things as you ask, like she yelled at them, belittled them, publicly humiliated employees. They accused her of throwing tantrums in the office on one occasion, tossing

an employee's work aside. And as you mentioned, using that expletive to describe it. On a single day, another employee reported multiple people were seen leaving Julie Payette's office with tears in their eyes after private meetings with the governor general. In another instance, a staff member was spotted crying in their car. She screams and humiliates staff in front of others. That's a quote. It's verbal abuse. In no world is it OK to treat people that way. And the list goes on and on. There was even one person who said that she like tested them on their space knowledge. And the details were so, like it was so detailed, the reporting at the time, that it was hard to walk away from that and think these are just generalized accusations being leveled at someone for the sake of it, right? Like they were so detailed that it really left you with the impression that there was a big workplace issue at Rideau Hall. Right, right. This quiz, the planets in the solar system, I remember when the story broke in the summer, I was on maternity leave. And like, that was a detail that really stuck with me. I remember

listening to it at the time and being sort of shocked by it. And the allegations, they just weren't against Julie Payette, right? They were also against her secretary, who is also resigning. Exactly. Her secretary, Asunta de Lorenzo, she was accused of almost being like the, not co-conspirator, but like co-executor, right? Like they were two peas in a pod and they approached the workplace in the same way. She, the secretary, it was her secretary to the governor general, was also accused of harassing employees, calling them lazy, incompetent. One person told Ashley she is also a bully when confronted with something she's unsure of. Instead of giving you the benefit of the doubt,

she comes at you as a pit bull. So that's a whole other interesting dynamic to the story and one that I think there's still a lot of legs to, only because she's resigning, but we know that she's retained a lawyer, Marie Hennon, who's a pretty familiar name in this country, given the high profile cases that she's been a part of. So something tells me there's more to that part of the story, too. Right, right. And you mentioned Marie Hennon, Vice Admiral Mark Norman. She also represented Gian Gomeschi. And so Julie Payette put out a statement Thursday afternoon. And how did she address these claims, this report that essentially led to her resignation?

So this statement was super interesting. And I'll tell you, I read it for the first time live on air. I was watching you. Okay, it got into my inbox and I was like, well, I guess I'll just read it and kind of learn as the audience does. It was a lengthy statement. And look, she acknowledges that there were issues in the workplace, but she doesn't take responsibility for them. Even though she ends up resigning, and I'll read some of the portion in which she does that, it's not like she says, I'm really sorry for this work environment that I created or for the way in which I made these employees feel. In fact, she even says in one line, we all experience things differently,

but we should always strive to do better and be attentive to one another's perceptions. Then she goes on to say, I'm a strong believer in the principles of natural justice, due process and the rule of law, and that these principles apply to all equally. Notwithstanding, in respect for the integrity of my vice regal office and for the good of our country and our democratic institutions, I've come to the conclusion that a new governor general should be appointed. Canadians deserve stability in these uncertain times. So she's even saying, insinuating there that there wasn't due process where she's concerned. But regardless of that, she still thinks it's for the betterment of the country in these uncertain times that she's going to resign. So that's what I take away from it. There's not an admission of guilt here. There's just a resignation.

I understand there was a call between her and the prime minister the night before she resigned. So I guess that would be Wednesday. Do we have any sense right now about what happened on that call, what the conversation was like? Well, I tried my best to ask the minister who was aware of the call, who said that they had that call. I was like, did the prime minister ask her to resign was there a blowout like what would exactly happen apparently uh they got together and this was a very uh formal answer i was given multiple times they discussed the contents of the report and then she offered her resignation okay because we don't know what the contents were i mean look the way in which that answer came to me, they don't want to say that they asked the governor general to resign, but it's clear that they felt what was in that report necessitated a resignation. So I don't know the intricacies of how that played out, but I don't think that the governor general was walking out of that room in her job. It strikes me that this is quite a fall from grace here. I remember when she was appointed, there was all this attention given to her really impressive resume. She was an astronaut,

a classical pianist. She speaks like many languages, I think six. And so this seemed to be an appointment that the liberal government at the time was incredibly proud of, right? 100%. You know, it's so funny that you bring this up because I was thinking I covered that. I covered the press conference. I was in the room when they announced her. I remember it so clearly. And I remember doing that story that night. I wrote like a two minute piece for the national newscast I was working on. And I this is I this sounds funny that I remember it. I remember thinking, wow, I am nothing. I have done nothing with my life. I will do nothing with my life. Her resume

is like unparalleled. You know, I understand from the perspective of whomever was appointing her that this resume was something to aspire to. It was everything that you think in theory the role should encompass at its best. That doesn't excuse a lack of vetting or things that were missed or anything to that degree. And I'm sure we can talk about all of that. But certainly on paper, this looked like the best possible match. And talk to me a little bit more about all of that. Like, do we know how they picked her to be governor general?

So we know that there was a vetting process that took place, but the process in general differed from that of the previous government. It didn't differ for most of the, you know, years that there's been a governor general. Usually, it's the prime minister who talks it over, you know, has a big role in all of this, and then there's a vetting process within the Privy Council that takes place. That's not abnormal. But prior to this prime minister being in office, when former Prime Minister Stephen Harper was, he had struck a committee, kind of arm's length, still involvement with the prime minister, but a committee that would better sort of suss out the appointments and flesh them out, much like you see, for example, in other countries when it comes to political appointees. So it's not that there was necessarily no involvement from the prime minister in that process, but there was more involvement from other parties as well. This was kind of a PMO pick, right? And it got a vetting, but it didn't get a vetting, obviously, to the same level maybe that others in the past have. And that's what is prompting all these questions about, OK, the next time around, are you going to have a committee like the Conservatives, for example, the Green Party?

They're saying you should be doing something like that. You should be having a committee because clearly the process that was in place for this pick didn't hit the bar. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income?

That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Cops. You know, I do remember that even shortly after she took the role, these stories started to come to the fore that sort of dimmed the sparkle on this initial appointment. And tell me a little bit about some of those early bits of information that emerged. Yeah, it didn't take long, which is kind of interesting. Yeah, it didn't take long, which is kind of interesting. And I'll preface the stories just by telling you a bit of like almost like how Ottawa worked at the time. Like it took a few months before all of a sudden the conversation behind the scenes, like among a lot of reporters and contacts that you have in this town was things are not as they seem. So I again want to give some credit to Ashley

and Kristen because I think there's not a single reporter in Ottawa who didn't know that things were really escalating in a bad way for a long time, but it never really got to a level that was reportable. Like it was essentially gossip, right? So you couldn't print it. There were lots of other reports about incidents and things like that, But she's the one that kind of brought it to the level that it ended up being at. And that's not an easy task, just given all I know about kind of what was happening behind the scenes. There was a story, I think, in like July of 2017 that revealed that there had been a second degree assault charge laid against Madame Payette in 2011 in Maryland. She had lived there with her then-husband. That was expunged.

Like, she wasn't convicted of it or anything like that. But that was obviously something that people thought should have been flagged in the original vetting process. The prime minister at the time said he didn't have concerns. He sort of insinuated that it had been taken into account. But that was the first thing that quickly came up. And then all of a sudden came the stories about Rideau Hall and particularly the renovations, like that she had this extensive list of renovations that she wanted, that it had to be very much specifically done to her liking. She had very inordinate amount of requirements for it, that kind of thing. Right. A lot of it to maintain her privacy, right? her liking. She had very inordinate amount of requirements for it, that kind of thing. So. Right. A lot of it to maintain her privacy, right? Exactly. Yes, she was. And that's actually something that was echoed later on, too, that she was very particular about her privacy. And then the other thing that I kept hearing at the time was sort of not just about that outwardly facing role, but the significant

role that the governor general plays when it comes to legislation. The governor general has to sign off on legislation. And apparently it was not an easy process under Julie Payette. Like normally it's just like a here you go, you know, OK, rubber stamp, the kind of thing. And it was not so that she would spend time with the bills. And clearly she viewed her. That's not inherently something that's wrong. She's entitled to that. But she viewed her role, what came through in all these stories in a much different way than her predecessors. And that is, I think, what started the ball rolling on all of this. Right, right. I remember there were also some stories sort of related to that, about, you know, difficulties that the government would have when like asking her to sign these

bills. So for example, that she hesitated, according to the National Post, to sign that cannabis legalization bill, because she was annoyed that it didn't sort of fit into her schedule, and that she had to rearrange her schedule there as well. And then I also want to point out significantly, because I think it's also related to what we're talking about today, that it turned out that actually there had been reports of similar workplace issues prior to her becoming governor general, like when she ran the Montreal Science Centre. And so, you know, I think that that is now fairly relevant of sort of workplace bullying. I can't help but wonder, Vashi, this reporting by Ashley, especially it came out in the summer. And so why did this resignation

take so long? Or why didn't the government get her out sooner? I do understand it is a little bit more complicated than sort of firing an employee. Yeah, I think that's a really important point. So it's different than other political appointees even or removing someone from cabinet. The prime minister can't just do it at his whim. He actually has to go to the queen and be like, hello, queen, can I remove Julie Payette from her role as her representative, as your representative in this country? That doesn't happen. It hasn't happened. Apparently, the prime minister, sources told us, even kind of scoffed at the suggestion months ago. So really, the only option was for Julie Payette to resign. And I'll tell you that even today, there are a lot of people surrounding the prime minister in government who were

surprised that she did resign. Like, there was a feeling that she would dig her heels in to the bitter end. So this was really the only option they had. And I think, you know, should they have presented the allegations through as reported through CBC months ago, that would be that would not have been enough for her to resign. There had to be some sort of independent assessment of her culpability and of the situation at Rideau Hall, I think that would would have sort of prompted this step to be taken or her to get to the point where she felt like she had to resign. I think the initial accusations just clearly wouldn't have been enough.

I'm just trying to picture like what it would have been like had she had refused to resign and the prime minister decided that this was so untenable and he had to get like the queen involved and you know would this be a scene somewhere down the road in the crown of season eight or something you know maybe give us another reason scene somewhere down the road in the crown of season eight or something, you know? Maybe. Give us another reason to watch some more Netflix. Just what I need. Maybe. Although I will say that a spokesperson for Buckingham Palace would not comment on the report today. No, they said they're following the developments. We got a late breaking comment just now. Buckingham Palace says the Queen is following the developments. Oh, interesting.

Yeah, one line. Yeah, very exciting. And so in the meantime, Vashi, what happens now? Do we have a sense of who our next governor general will be or who will hold the role while the government looks for a new one? Yes, we do. It's pretty clear. It's the way the system works kind of in if for any reason there is the governor general has to leave their position or or something happens to the governor general. It's the chief justice of the Supreme Court, Richard Wagner, who takes over.

And that is, in fact, what the statement from the prime minister said earlier, that he would take over in the interim and that they would be making a recommendation to the queen about Madame Payette's replacement. An announcement would happen in due course. I followed up to see, OK, what does due course mean? Are we talking weeks? Are we talking months? Minister Leblanc said that they're kind of turning their attention to it now and that they would have some more details about a timeline in a few days. My guess is they don't wait forever to replace her. And the reason I say that is the governor general does play a role in minority governments and potential elections. And so not that the role couldn't easily be fulfilled by the chief justice. I'm sure he would very much know what he's doing, but probably they're going to want a more permanent person in that position, given all the political possibilities that exist under a minority government. Okay, Vashti, thank you. I'm sure we'll be talking to you about this again real soon. Thanks, Jamie. Okay, that is all for this week. FrontBurner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcast.

The show is produced this week by Imogen Burchard, Elaine Cha brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcast. The show is produced this week by Imogen Burchard, Elaine Chao, Shannon Higgins, and Allie Janes. Our sound design was by Derek Vanderwyk and Matt Cameron. Our music is by Joseph Chabison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of Frontburner is Nick McKay-Blocos. And I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk to you on Monday.