Front Burner - Greenbelt blowback continues to slam Ford government

Episode Date: September 7, 2023

Doug Ford’s Greenbelt scandal continues to deepen. In the past few weeks, there have been two high-profile political resignations, revelations about a mysterious consultant known as “Mr. X”, and another provincial watchdog who panned the Greenbelt land swap as rushed and flawed. It’s all related to Ontario’s decision to allow construction on previously protected farmlands, forests and wetlands that would allow a small group of well-connected developers to make an estimated $8.3-billion. Today we’re joined by Emma McIntosh. She’s an Ontario environment reporter at The Narwal, who has been closely following this story. Looking for a transcript of the show? They’re available here daily: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

Happy Holidays! I'm Frank Cappadocia, Dean of Continuous Professional Learning at Humber Polytechnic, and I'd like you to set a goal for 2025 to sharpen your skills and get promoted. Register for a professional designation, micro-credential, or certificate with Humber's Continuous Professional Learning and ignite your career journey this new year. Our experts deliver accelerated learning from resilience-based leadership to electric vehicle fundamentals in learning options that work with your ambitious lifestyle. Adapt, evolve, and excel. Go to humber.ca slash cpl to get started. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Tamara Kandaker.

So for almost a year now, Doug Ford has tried to brush away criticisms of his Greenbelt plan. But the controversy is not going away. And this week, he was back at it. You know, we realize it. We admit our mistakes. I've come out here. We've apologized. We're moving forward. But nothing is more important than building homes. This is all about his plan to open up land that's had environmental protections for years to developers who now stand to make an estimated $8.3 billion. A lot has happened since we last covered the story when the province's auditor general

released a report declaring that Ontario's plans to build on previously protected farmlands, forests and wetlands were heavily influenced by a small group of well-connected developers. That to me smells of corruption and I think we need to call it that. It's an issue of ethics, of principles, of morality which have all been blatantly and clearly breached. In the past few weeks, there have been two high-profile political resignations, revelations about a mysterious consultant known as Mr. X, and another provincial watchdog report that slammed the Greenbelt land swap as rushed and flawed. And then on Tuesday, the premier announced his government is going to re-evaluate the land swap sites

as part of a sweeping review of all Greenbelt lands and development applications. All of this has left us with a ton of questions. So today I'm joined by Emma McIntosh. She's an environment reporter at The Narwhal, and she's been closely following the story. Hey, Emma, welcome back. Thanks for doing this. Hey, it's good to be here. Yeah, it's great to have you. So let's get into this.

We have a lot to dig into. Let's start with the resignation of Ryan Amato, who was the chief of staff for the housing minister, Steve Clark. He was identified by the Auditor General report as a, if not the person who kind of spearheaded this whole process of choosing land to be removed from the Greenbelt. And in late August, after the report came out, he resigned. But since then, another report has come out from the Ontario Integrity Commissioner. And what did we learn that's new about Ryan Amato from that report? The Integrity Commissioner pretty much backed up a lot of what the Auditor General said, The integrity commissioner pretty much backed up a lot of what the auditor general said, which is that Ryan Amato was the ringleader of this whole chaotic, reckless process that led to Lynn being taken out of the Greenbelt. But for the first time, we're really hearing Ryan Amato's side of the story and also what he was telling other people while this was going on.

One of the most interesting things in it was that Ryan Amato told public servants that he was acting on orders directly from the premier. But the integrity commissioner found that that actually wasn't true, that he could find no proof that the premier had told Ryan Amato to do any of this. There are all these contrasting pieces of evidence and interviews that really paint a confusing picture. For one thing, Amato talks about this one meeting he had with the premier where he walked out knowing that he had to do this. The premier says this never happened. It's all super confusing and super muddled. Yeah. And so what does Ryan Amato himself say about the way that he's made out to look in this report or the allegations against him in the report?

Ryan Amato hasn't given any media interviews yet, but in a piece of his resignation letter that leaked to media, he contested it. He said that he feels a proper and fair investigation would clear him of wrongdoing. Now, it's difficult, right? Because two separate independent watchdogs have found that he was the ringleader of this whole thing. But, you know, it's worth noting

that he has lawyered up. And let's dig into this report a little bit more. Aside from the stuff about Ryan Amato, what else did you find interesting in it that you think we should know? Oh, my gosh, there's so much. This whole thing was really like a movie. You know, for the first time, we also have substantial testimony from the developers who were involved in all of this. There's talk of the developer rumor mill, which Ryan Amato was quoted as saying is like high school gossip networks, where people seem to know about the Greenbelt changes in advance. And the rumors were really spreading like wildfire in the community. There are tales of allegedly illegal lobbying and special lobbying

bonuses, which are not allowed. And then there's also the tale of this mysterious figure named Mr. X. Yeah, and we'll talk about him in a second. But what did the report say about Doug Ford and his role in this whole controversy? The report really illuminated what Doug Ford knew and when he knew it. So I've reported that the premier's office appeared to be having some discussions about the Green Belt in late June 2022 after the election. But the integrity commissioner actually revealed that that had been happening a lot sooner during the election before voting was over. But Ford's staff did not tell the public. His campaign didn't tell the public. And so voters didn't have the chance to weigh in on that idea. The other

thing is we know for sure that Premier Ford was the one who gave the order to open the Greenbelt. There is some disagreement because the integrity commissioner found that Ryan Amato misunderstood what he was being asked to do and that actually they didn't want him to open up the Greenbelt super fast and do all the things he did. But ultimately, Premier Ford did give the order for them to explore this idea of opening up the Greenbelt. Right. And of course, like I mentioned earlier, there are all these questions about what exactly he told Ryan Amato to do.

At one point, Ryan Amato said that he had received three packages of information about properties from the Premier. But when the Integrity commissioner asked him about this, he denied that that had happened and Premier Ford denied that it had happened. And so really the whole thing raises more questions than it answers. And so just to be clear, what has Premier Ford's response to questions about his role in the controversy been? Since day one, the premier has really maintained that he had no idea what

the ministry was doing, what Ryan Amato was doing, and what Steve Clark was doing when it came to the Greenbelt. There's one thing, folks, that I don't believe in. Micromanaging, even in my private company, when I had it, I don't believe in micromanaging managers. I don't believe in micromanaging ministers. I have confidence believe in micromanaging ministers. I have confidence in our ministers and to follow the process. He said, you know, I'm not a micromanager. I'm not going to be controlling my staff like that. But some of his other statements have been kind of contradictory. On the one hand, the premier says he doesn't give two hoots about the developers. I don't give two hoots about these developers,

but they're part of the system. The builders build what you want me to do. But on the other hand, he's said that they're his personal friends. Still, he's maintaining that, you know, although he didn't know what was going on, he accepts that the process was flawed. But that in turn raises more questions, right? If it was so flawed, why not undo it and start over?

So then on Monday, we saw another resignation that we should talk about, that of Ontario's municipal affairs and housing minister, Steve Clark. And this came as a bit of a surprise, right? Why was this unexpected? I think that this was so crazy because Ford and Clark had maintained that he wouldn't resign for so long. All of this started like, what, three weeks ago now. And since the very first report came out, they have maintained Steve Clark is remaining on as minister. No doubt about it. And even before the long weekend, Steve Clark gave a news conference where he was insisting the very same thing. Like four days before he resigned, he stood up there and took questions and repeated over and over again that he would be staying.

resigned. He stood up there and took questions and repeated over and over again that he would be staying. I completely accept the responsibility that I was overly reliant on my chief and my staff. But I accept... Why don't you resign today, Minister? I'm here to accept responsibility, Richard, for the lack of... That being said, the whole thing was starting to feel like the beginning of the end, I think, by the end of Thursday. There was like a solemnness, a somberness about Minister Clark, who at times almost appeared a little emotional, like maybe he was realizing in real time that it was over. And it sounds, based on his response, that he thought he would be able to stay on, like he said in the announcement. This is a quote, although my initial thought was that

I could stay in this role and establish a proper process so that these mistakes don't happen, I realize that my presence will only cause a further distraction from the important work that needs to be done and that I need to take accountability for what has transpired. He wrote this on Twitter. And I'm wondering, what do you make of this resignation? What kind of larger questions does it bring up for you? Oh, man, there are so many. For one thing, you know, I really wonder if this is going to make a dent in the public backlash. The integrity commissioner's report really showed that Steve Clark didn't want to do this. He was unhappy with what the premier was

asking him to do. And that was why he stayed out of it, which was ultimately what led to him being found to have violated ethics rules because he wasn't keeping a close enough eye on his staff. because he wasn't keeping a close enough eye on his staff. And so it really raises like a zillion questions. Like, did the premier set up Steve Clark to fail? Because as everybody in this Integrity Commissioner report seems to know, this idea was not going to be politically popular, especially when Steve Clark had just spent four years telling Ontario that he wouldn't touch the green belt.

You know, it raises questions about why Clark didn't push back, why he chose to bury his head in the sand. And it also really raises questions about what Ford is going to do now that Clark, who was kind of serving as his shield, is gone. One phrase the Premier has thrown around a lot is that the buck stops with me. And yeah, it kind of seems like the buck has gotten there now because there's no one else left to take the harsh questions. Happy Holidays. Happy holidays.

I'm Frank Cappadocia, Dean of Continuous Professional Learning at Humber Polytechnic. I'd like you to set a goal to drive key learning for your people in 2025. I want you to connect with Humber CPL to design a custom training solution that accelerates your team's performance and engagement. Humber works with you

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You mentioned another character that's popped up in all of this who was identified in the Ontario Integrity Commissioner's report only as Mr. X. And over the weekend, he was identified by media as former Clarington Mayor John Muttin. And he's in the report. He's this mysterious development consultant. Tell me a bit about him and what role he allegedly played in all of this. Okay, well, here's the part of the story where we really like veer into the realm of the absurd like from the beginning this whole thing has kind of felt more like a hollywood script than our ontario government scandal to be honest yeah but this really just like cranks it up to a hundred so john mutton is a bodybuilder slash magic mushrooms entrepreneur slash development guy um He works at this firm that seems primarily aimed at facilitating development. He denies that he's a lobbyist, but we'll find out the answer to that question

eventually. It's important to know that John Muttin denies that he is Mr. X as identified in the report. The integrity commissioner cannot name Mr. X right now because he's not allowed to say whether or not an investigation is being conducted into a specific lobbyist until it's done. But when the commissioner is done looking at this case, we'll probably find out more. What's being alleged right now is that Mr. X had a contract with a development company that would have seen him get $1 million if a property in Clarington, a community outside of Toronto, was successfully removed from the Greenbelt. And if that sounds weird, it's because it is. A lobbying success fee is illegal in Ontario.

And there are all these other wild details about this guy. His nickname is the muttonator. Some of his colleagues also have interesting names. And there's even a post on social media where he hashtagged it MZOs are us. And an MZO is like a special zoning order thing that you can get from the government. So it's just the details of this are getting weirder and weirder, basically. Yeah. Some of the allegations against him are that he tried to take government staffers out for golf, lunch, a Raptors game, right? Yeah. And so we know the lunch happened. I believe it was at the Joey's at the Eaton Center. But the staffers involved deny that they ever went to the Raptors

game or went golfing with him. I expect that we'll find out the answers to those uncertainties whenever the integrity commissioner finishes his work on this. All right, so that brings us to the Premier's latest announcement. On Tuesday, one day after Minister Clark's resignation, Doug Ford said that his government is going to be re-evaluating the Greenbelt as part of a larger mandated review. We're going to make sure that we consult with everyone. mandated review. We're going to make sure that we consult with everyone. We're following the recommendations of the auditor general and we'll continue to follow the recommendations. But there's going to be a complete review from top to bottom and then they're going to have to stand on their own merit. And it was kind of confusing because at first it seemed like the government would be rethinking the controversial decision to develop on the Greenbelt land in question.

But that's not really what's happening, right? No, it kind of looks like it's maybe the opposite. So basically what's going on is the government is looking at the entire Greenbelt. And specifically, they're looking at 700 or 800 applications that the government has already received from developers to open up their lands. And really, like, I can hear myself saying a lot, like, we'll see, we'll find out. But that's really what's going on here. So many things are up in the air. We have the vague outlines of a timeline, but there's also every indication that the government is using this as an last year might end up going back in, but they're also now looking at hundreds of other things that could come out.

And in the meantime, he and the new housing minister, Paul Calandra, have said development is going to continue on those 14 sites that have been removed already as this review's ongoing. The review will include the 14 parcels of land that are currently that were removed from the Greenbelts. We will include that in our review. But at the same time, I have spoken to the provincial facilitator yesterday, Lance facilitator yesterday. I reiterated my commitment to ensuring that we get shovels in the ground, but also to ensure...

Yeah, yeah, and that's another confusing thing, right? If it's under review, usually things are paused while that happens. But in this case, the premier is, if anything, telling them to go faster. You know, reiterating threats that if he doesn't see significant progress on that land by the end of this year and shovels in the ground by 2025, he'll return it to the green belt. And just a message to the 14 owners of this property. If I don't see movement, you're going back into the green belt. This isn't about the builders. I don't give two hoots about the builders. And that's like lightning fast in development timelines, right?

And so it's kind of this dual message. Like, hold on, we're doing a review. Maybe this stuff won't actually go through, but also do it as fast as you can. Yeah. And so far, Doug Ford seems to be doubling down on this line that the land is needed for housing, right? That was disputed by the Auditor General's report. It said there's no evidence this land is needed for housing. And we've already talked at length in previous episodes about why this land is widely seen as a very bad choice for housing development. Yet he's clinging on to this talking point. As sure as I'm standing here, folks, there's going to be people that are going to be able to afford a home, an attainable home. There's going to be more rentals than there's ever been.

So can you lay out for me the argument people are making that this isn't about housing at all? Yeah, I think there's a few big, big pieces of information that people have honed in on. So number one, the government wasn't even looking at development feasibility when they were picking these pieces of land. We can actually see in the integrity commissioner's report a detailed timeline of how this went down. And they didn't even start talking about how many houses could be built there until the final days before this was being made public. So that's one thing. It really wasn't a consideration. And I think like you've talked about on the show before, it could take up to 25

years for some of these pieces of land to be developable. Number two, we already have more than enough land. This has been identified in a ton of different reports from a ton of different sources, including a provincial government panel. Now, the premier has fought back against that. And he said, well, we commissioned that report from that panel before we got revised immigration targets that mean more people will be moving here. And I want to address that because I think it's an important point. Yes, that was before they received that target. But the Ontario government has asked for more people to move here. And it also started the process of opening the Greenbelt lands before it received that new target.

And the last thing is that that task force that I talked about, it came up with dozens of recommendations for how the government could actually alleviate the housing crisis. And so I think a lot of people are asking, like, if this is about housing, why not do that? Or why not reinstate full rent control? Why go for this land that, you know, sources seem to agree wasn't even necessary anyway? So now we're almost a year into this controversy. It's only gotten worse and worse. Yet the only thing that we've seen is a mini cabinet shuffle and two resignations. And I'm wondering what has been the political impact for Doug Ford as a result of all of this?

as a result of all of this? Well, it's good timing for you to ask because we're just starting to see the very first polls that show how this is affecting his support. And sure enough, it looks like the premier's support is starting to slide. I've been listening to a lot of CBC radio lately and I've been hearing a lot of call-in shows where people talk about their disappointment,

where they express anger. Well, I think that Ford is the one that needs to resign. He needs to take responsibility. I'm a longtime supporter of the provincial PCs. And as I've informed the party, when Mr. Ford is no longer premier, I will renew my membership. But if this goes through and he doesn't pay attention and reverse course, I'll never vote conservative again. I think back in November, when this was just a story about, you know, developers buying land that got unlocked from the green belt,

people might've had feelings about it, but it isn't the way it is now. Now we have all these details, right, of secret packages passed from person to person and $1 million green belt fees and Mr. X. And now people have resigned. And we know there are more reports coming from various watchdogs. And these are things that are very easy for anyone to understand, right? And so I think it's starting to impact the premier quite a bit. And that does not seem to be a problem that is going away anytime soon. Right. And then before I let you go, Emma, for people who are wondering what happens next, the RCMP is currently weighing whether there are grounds for potential police investigation into the land swaps. And the last time we talked about the story, we kind of left on this idea that for people who are interested in stopping this development, the only real hope that they have is

leveraging the power of public outrage or for municipalities to make things really hard on that level. And is that still where we're at? Yeah, definitely. You know, while all of this scandal and gossip and drama is playing out at Queens Park and in the halls of power, really, like, what will determine the fate of this land is mostly playing out in the municipalities where the land is. These are the local councils who are tasked with either, you know, granting the permits to make this development happen or for denying them. And so I think that's really the best place for people to make themselves heard, whether you like it, whether you don't like it, or you think it should be done another way. I think that's where this is going next. Okay, Emma, thank you so much for

doing this. I know it's not an easy story to unpack because there's so many different characters and so many different layers, but I appreciate it. Always fun to talk through the Greenbelt Cinematic Universe. All right, before I let you go, some news broke after we recorded this conversation. In response to the provincial watchdog reports we've been talking about today, Ontario's Attorney General has announced it will review the provincial legislation that governs lobbyists in an effort to address significant concerns around lobbying practices in the province. Now, that's all for today. I'm Tamara Kandaker. Thank you for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.