Front Burner - Greta Thunberg and the rise of the youth climate movement

Episode Date: December 27, 2019

She's the teenager who skipped school — and sparked a global protest. Today, Greta Thunberg is instantly recognizable by her stern demeanour and singular message: When it comes to climate change, listen to the scientists. But it was only last year that she was an unknown 15-year-old, protesting outside Swedish parliament. In the time since, she's dressed down heads of state at the UN, inspired millions of people to march in the global Climate Strike, and been named Time magazine's Person of the Year. But in 2019, it wasn't just Greta and the youth movement she inspires — there were other large-scale protests, led by groups like Extinction Rebellion. Today on Front Burner, Jayme Poisson talks to the Washington Post science and environment reporter Sarah Kaplan about whether these movements can produce real change in the year to come.

This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. She's a teenager from Sweden who skipped school and sparked a global protest. Today, Greta Thunberg is instantly recognizable by her stern demeanor and singular message. When it comes to climate change, listen to the scientists. But it was only last year that she was just a 15-year-old protesting outside Swedish parliament. Since then, she's dressed down heads of state at the UN,

inspired millions of people to march in the global climate strike and been named Time Magazine's Person of the Year. And this year, it wasn't just Greta and the youth movement she inspired. There were other large-scale protests led by groups like Extinction Rebellion and governments small and large declaring climate emergencies. Today, I'm talking to Sarah Kaplan. She reports on science and the environment for the Washington Post. We'll talk about Greta and 2019 as a pivotal moment in the fight against climate change. That's today on Frontburner.

Hi, Sarah. Hey, good to be here. Thanks so much for taking the time. We really, really appreciate it. I know you're supposed to be at a conference today. So thank you so much for making space for us. Yeah, well, I'm actually at a conference, the American Geophysical Union meeting, which is like the biggest gathering of climate scientists in the US.

So it's sort of an appropriate conversation to be having. Right. This is like right where your head is. Yeah, exactly. So maybe we could start here. What do we know about Greta Thunberg's beginnings, her life before she became possibly the most famous climate activist in the world? So she was kind of just like an ordinary Swedish schoolgirl. You know, it's not like she had this background in activism before beginning her climate strike. Her mother is an opera singer, so she has sort of a, you know, she's a global presence, but she's, you know, her parents aren't activists either.

But in the summer of 2018, Sweden and a lot of Europe was undergoing a really devastating heat wave and Sweden was about to have its parliamentary elections. And so Greta suggested to some other students at her school that they try to hold a strike outside the parliamentary buildings to put pressure on the parliament to say the people are expecting you to act on climate. And her fellow students were not interested. She couldn't get anyone else to join her. Oh, that's interesting. So she went out and did it herself. Yeah, yeah.

It felt like I was the only one who cared about the climate and ecological crisis. No one I knew cared about this. And I felt like I was the only one. And now I don't feel that anymore. Which I think is one of the things that makes Greta kind of unique is that you can imagine a lot of teenagers if they can't get traction for something from their peers they might say okay well I guess this isn't going to work. Right. Greta was like okay if I'm alone I'm alone I'm going to sit there alone. They might feel kind of deflated right? Yeah yeah. And I understand her parents

though were kind of early converts to her activism too, yeah. And I understand her parents, though, were kind of early converts to her activism, too, right? You know, you mentioned her mom is an opera singer, but I think she stopped flying. Yeah. So Greta, I mean, she is very sort of steadfast in her principles. So she doesn't eat meat. She doesn't fly. And she has converted her family to that as well. They try to live the most sustainable lifestyle they can. But I think another important thing about Greta's activism is that she has said she doesn't expect everyone to live the way she does, make the sacrifices that she does. You know, she famously took a sailboat, a zero emission sailboat across the Atlantic to come to the U.S.

for the U.N.'s Climate Action Summit in September. And then she took the sailboat across the Atlantic to come to the U.S. for the U.N.'s Climate Action Summit in September and then she took the sailboat back to get to Spain for COP25. She was in Canada for a while too in Montreal. Yeah and yeah traveling around. I feel a bit seasick and it's not going to be comfortable but that I can live with. Can we talk about how she got to that point where she was taking that sailboat essentially like across the world you know you mentioned that she started all this in 2018 as like a lone protester sort of protesting outside the Swedish parliament striking from her school and then all of a sudden she's addressing four million people in September at the global climate strike.

And so how did she get there in just a year? It was kind of slow and then fast. Greta was striking. She began her strike, I think, in late August 2018. But what really, I think, sort of brought her to the public's attention, to global attention, was her speech at COP24, which was the last United Nations meeting to talk about sort of how we're going to tackle climate change, achieve the goals of the Paris Climate Accord. And it was really a barn burner.

And I think that her, yes, you know, she said, you say you love your children, but you are allowing your children's future to burn. The year 2078, I will celebrate my 75th birthday. If I have children, maybe they will spend that day with me. Maybe they will ask me about you. Maybe they will ask why you didn't do anything while there still was time to act. And it was so stark, unvarnished, and like a call to not what is politically feasible or seems appealing, but what sort of she believes science says has to be done. And I think that really,

especially in the context of all these kind of politicians and global thinkers talking. Who've been talking for years, yeah. Yeah, exactly. That her voice was really, it really just stood out. And that definitely sparked people's attention. And in the week after that, a bunch of other student strikers began doing the same thing in their communities. So there was a girl, Alexandria Villasenor in New York, who began striking outside UN headquarters.

in New York who began striking outside UN headquarters, children in Australia and in D.C. and in, you know, all over the place. Concern for the future is fueling worldwide protests from South Africa to Australia to the United Kingdom. In a moment, many hope is a global tipping point. Because they saw in her sort of a model of what they themselves could be. You know, you mentioned before she's incredibly steadfast. You know, what else is it about her that has made her this figurehead of this global youth movement? So Greta has Asperger's and she's described that as her superpower.

In some circumstances, it can definitely be an advantage. And especially in such a big crisis like this, when we need to think outside the box, we need to think outside our current system, that we need people who think outside the box and who aren't like everyone else. It gives her the capacity to sort of speak the unvarnished truth, to speak in sort of blunt terms that a lot of people feel sort of more compelled to ascribe by social niceties that Greta definitely doesn't have. You know, I was talking to a 16-year old who's, you know, attended climate strikes here in the States. She was saying that, you know,

when you're a teenager and you can't vote and you don't have a job and you don't have money, so it's not like you can vote with your pocketbook. She was saying she felt a little powerless. And then she saw Greta. And what Greta has done is not just act as a role model for other kids, but has actively said, like, I'm not the only person. Pay attention to the other people. Pay attention to my peers. Pay attention to the scientists. She makes space. She's not taking it all up, which I think is a uniquely teenage girl way to tackle this issue. Why do you think it's a uniquely teenage girl way to tackle it?

I think that there's, I spoke with a sociologist who studies girl activism, and she says that the characteristics of activism led by teenage girls, whether it's Malala Yousafzai or some of the teen girls of color in the U.S. who have been advocating against environmental racism for decades and really led some of those early movements that provide the foundation for what we see today. day, they tend to be more collaborative. They tend to be very creative. And they tend to be willing to sort of follow one another's lead. And, you know, maybe that's because of the way girls are socialized. And I think that's, you know, it's like you look at these global climate strikes and it's not like Greta sitting there in Sweden, like orchestrating all of these things. It's very, very grassroots and organic. And it's just that, you know, other kids have been inspired by her and have started their own thing and have been pushing their communities to declare climate emergencies or to implement more environmental regulations or whatever it is. You know, they're all acting in the capacity that they can, sort of inspired by her, but not like directed by

her. And I think that's part of also the staying power of what we've seen over the past year and how it's been able to build up so fast. Can we talk about that a little bit more? Like who is organizing and attending these strikes? I know you've reported that it's overwhelmingly girls. You just mentioned teenage girls. Like what's going on here? So these strikes are almost always orchestrated entirely by teenagers. You know, they get help from some of the kind of adult

mainstream climate organizations like, you know, 350, which is Bill McKibben's movement and the Climate Reality Project, which is Al Gore's organization. But, you know, 350, which is Bill McKibben's movement, and the Climate Reality Project, which is Al Gore's organization. But you know, all of the planning, the organizing, the strategizing, like I've sat in on some of the phone calls between these kids, and they last for like, two hour conference calls that they have every week deciding, like, you know, how are they going to do their next strike. So it's really is them doing the heavy lifting. And you're right, it is mostly teen girls. And again, I think that has to do partly with sort of the way girls are socialized and the way environmentalism is maybe read as a more feminine issue. But I also think, you know, one of the things that I've found so fascinating

talking to these girls and also talking to people who study social movements is that there is such a long history of teen girls really being at the forefront. You know, going back to sort of action, at least in the U.S., against environmental racism. So the fact that power plants and incinerators are more often placed in communities of color where they tend to have really devastating health impacts. are more often placed in communities of color where they tend to have really devastating health impacts. A lot of the early leaders of those sort of local protests against those kinds of things were young women. But another thing that the social scientists pointed out to me is that, you know, even though young women have always been doing this, have always had an eye towards justice and what needs to be changed, we haven't really been willing to listen to them or we haven't had kind of an archetype

for understanding who they are. And these girls came of age, you know, reading Harry Potter and the Hunger Games and seeing people like Malala. And now there's sort of this notion that like you could be a young woman and save the world because they

have all these role models. Oh, that's so interesting for it. It's Leviosa, not Leviosa. I volunteer as tribute. I believe we have a volunteer. Yeah. And I mean, this literally one of the organizers in D.C. who I spoke to said, you know, she saw last fall a bunch of Sunrise activists who sat in protest at Nancy Pelosi's office, the House speaker. Right. And the Sunrise movement, for those listening, is a movement of the United States. It sort of touts the importance of the Green New Deal, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really pushing for more aggressive climate policy. deal, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Really pushing for more aggressive climate policy. So we're here to say to our politicians, we need you. We need you to back a Green New Deal. 1,000 young climate activists with the Sunrise Movement descended on Capitol Hill on Monday to demand a Green New Deal,

a plan for the U.S. to become carbon neutral within a decade and create tens of millions of jobs in the renewable energy sector. And she saw that protest and she saw the way it sort of grabbed people's attention. And she told me she felt like this was the moment in all of her favorite books. Where like the girl realizes she needs to step up and become a heroine. And that's what she felt she needed to do. And now she's, you know, organizing all of the DC strikes. She goes and protests in front of the Capitol every Friday. That is such a fascinating analysis I hadn't heard before now. And it makes so much sense when you think about these heroines that these young girls have grown up with, certainly

different than even what I grew up with or what you grew up with, right? I suppose we had like Nancy Drew, but certainly we didn't have The Hunger Games. Certainly we didn't have Hermione. Yeah. You know, the pride that they have in being outspoken and just fighting for what they think is right. I mean, I remember being a teen girl and I definitely had opinions and I was sort of, you know, mildly politically aware. But I don't think that I ever thought that anyone would listen to me. Like I didn't have that confidence that they have. And it's really, really cool to see, you know, regardless of what you think about climate change.

I think it's pretty awesome to see. And they do speak with this moral authority, right? Because they are the ones who are going to inherit the planet that we shape over the next few decades. Right. And so I also wonder, you know, they have this moral authority because, like, they haven't been in the system. You know, Al Gore or Leonardo DiCaprio, you look at other people who have been very outspoken on climate. They maybe haven't partaken in all of the things that have caused these problems for the climate because they're so young. And perhaps that gives them that authority.

I am not a scientist. I don't have the proper education. I am only a messenger. And it's not just authority. It's also sort of like an absolutism. You know, anyone, if you're an adult, you may feel really strongly about climate and think that the world needs to act on it. But you also, you have a job that you need to get to, you have children you need to feed, you know, you maybe think like, well, I vote. And so that's my contribution. And these kids are, you know, they're not vested in the system, in the status quo, the way sort of most many adults are, right? You know, what they see is at stake is their future, not their present. And so I think that that also gives them a little bit more power and incentive to say, like, yeah,

it's going to be hard to change the global economy, but like, it's what needs to be done. So do it in a way that maybe so much more black and white. You are failing us, but the young people are starting to understand your betrayal. The eyes of all future generations are upon you. And if you choose to fail us, I say we will never forgive you. I'm interested to hear your perspective here. You know, Greta herself has become a real target of the right in the United States. So, like, the day after that she was named Times Person of the Year,

Donald Trump mocked her on Twitter and said that she had an anger management issue. Brazil's president Bolsonaro has called her a brat. It's incredible how sort of personal these attacks have gotten. And why do you think that's happening? You know, I so I spoke with Greta herself in September. And one thing that she said that I thought was very astute was that hearing a child speak out, especially the way she speaks out, hearing a child hold adults to account makes people feel very guilty. And guilt, I think, can drive, guilt and fear drives a lot of kind of vitriol, right? And, you know, another thing that one of the climate activists in DC told me is that she thinks that a lot of people are more afraid of change than

they are of climate change. You know, the special report from the IPCC on how we're going to limit warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius, which is considered kind of the threshold for avoiding the worst sort of natural disasters and other climate impacts, calls for a very, very aggressive change, a complete overhaul of the global system. And that scares people. And it scares people with power and wealth because they are doing really well in the current system. You know, part of the targeting of these children is that they are the most effective activists that kind of the climate

movement has seen in decades. You know, scientists have been saying the same thing for years, the sort of traditional Greenpeace and 350 and all of those groups have been saying the same thing for years. And in, you know, 12 months, the youth climate activists have really sparked this global conversation and pushed the needle far further than we've seen. connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem, brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. You know, I don't want to throw cold water on what all these young people are doing. Obviously, they have succeeded at sparking this incredible global conversation. But I would love to ask you, I do wonder sometimes if they can actually get the kind of real change that they're pushing for. Because we haven't necessarily seen

that happen, right from governments, you know, here in Canada, we've seen huge resistance over like a nominal carbon tax, President Trump, he's removed himself from the Paris Climate Accord. And when I look at other successful protest movements, the labor movements in the past that completely shut down industry, the civil rights movement, they also have these very powerful allies, including the Supreme Court, like President Kennedy, the civil rights movement had this. It's not clear to me that this movement has that. You know, we were talking before that they're kind of outside the power structures and that gives them this authority. But is that also a hindrance? You know, that's a really good point. I wouldn't say that we haven't seen any change. I think that maybe there hasn't been the kind of biggest, most visible, like

national level changes. Yeah, sorry, it's me being so cynical. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, Germany declared a climate emergency. There are some young Alaska Native activists. They got their community to declare a climate emergency. There are a lot of local and state level legislation that has passed in the past year, often with backing from these young activists. So I would not say that they have not been effective. And I actually think that there is a lot of, there's a decent amount of research that suggests that climate activism does have an impact. There was a study that came out a couple of years ago that found states where there were more environmental organizations, like the organizations had a footprint, you know, people were more likely to elect politicians with higher ratings from environmental groups. And then also, if you adjust for income and size, those states have lower emissions, right? There's a correlation between, you know, having people be active out in the streets calling for change and like,

seeing the carbon go down. And I should say here too, there's no question that climate change became a voting issue in our last and recent election, which is the first time I've ever seen that. So, you know, it's fair to say the needle is moving. I do wonder sometimes if it's moving fast enough and that maybe something else needs to happen. Yeah, it's definitely not. So I guess my question is, do you think that something else needs to happen? You know, I think about other groups like Extinction Rebellion. We love Extinction Rebellion.

Yay! We're far more aggressive in our tactics. Like, this is about civil disobedience. Do you think that that could be more effective? Or, you know, what do you think needs to happen in 2020? You know, any protest movement, any activist movement, it's an ecosystem, right? Like, you know, during the civil rights movement, we had Martin Luther King, we had Malcolm X, and we had, you know, there's often a whole spectrum of people who are pushing for change at different levels in different ways. And it's usually the cumulative force of all of them that actually moves the

needle. So you have the youth climate movement who have this like very powerful and inspiring and single minded message. You have groups like Extinction Rebellion, which are very have these very aggressive tactics. Their goal is to like disrupt regular society. So they'll try to block traffic in cities and things like that. like that. And then, you know, there's going the political route with the Green New Deal or politicians pushing for environmental legislation in the sort of traditional way. And I think that really change happens when you have all of those things working together. The people with the most power to reduce emissions and to create the kind of global economic system that will be sustainable.

Those are politicians. Those are big corporations. But massive corporations with oil and energy interest. We are talking entrenched power structures. Yeah, absolutely. But they're not going to act unless people demand it. And I think that the activism of the youth climate movement is increasing the demand. Okay, Sarah Kaplan, thank you so much for this conversation.

Yeah, thank you. Well, that's all for this holiday week. FrontBurner comes to you from CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show is produced by Imogen Burchard, Elaine Chao, Shannon Higgins, Ashley Mack, and Mark Apollonio. Our sound designer is Derek Vanderwyk, with help this week from Billy Heaton. Our music is by Joseph Shabison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of FrontBurner is Nick McCabe-Locos. And I'm your host, Jamie Poisson.

Hope you all are having a wonderful holiday and see you all next week. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.