Front Burner - Guilty verdict for Muslim family truck attack

Episode Date: November 20, 2023

Nathaniel Veltman has been found guilty of four counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder, after violently hitting a Muslim family in London, Ontario, with a pick-up truck in 2021. What is the reaction to the verdict from the family and community? And how has this trial tested Canada’s terrorism laws? First we hear from Hina Islam, a member of the Afzaal family and a registered psychotherapist who has provided trauma support for members of London’s Muslim community. Later in the episode, CBC’s Kate Dubinski explains what led up to the verdict. For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Damon Fairless. that the perpetrator of these heinous crimes is indeed a murderer. This wasn't just a crime against the Muslim community, but rather an attack against the safety and security of all Canadians. The enduring grief, trauma, and the irreplaceable void

left by the loss of multiple generations has pierced us profoundly. Tabinda Bukhari is the mother of Madia Sulman, who along with four members of her family were violently struck by a pickup truck in June 2021 in London, Ontario. The Ifsals, who were Muslim, were out for an evening walk when they were attacked. The only surviving member of the family was a nine-year-old boy, and he was seriously injured at the time. Police labeled the attack an anti-Muslim hate crime soon after, and it was widely condemned across the country. Last Thursday, the man driving that truck, Nathaniel Veltman, was found guilty of four counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder. Later in the episode, the CBC's Kate Dubinsky will be here to talk about what led up

to that verdict. But first, Hena Islam is a member of the Ufzal family. She's also a registered psychotherapist in London, and she's been providing trauma support for members of the city's Muslim community. Hi, Hannah. Thanks so much for coming on FrontBurner. Hi. Thanks for having me here. Hannah, it's been a few days since the verdict came down. How are you doing? How are you feeling? We've had a lot of mixed emotions. Obviously, there is a lot of relief.

But for me and a lot of us in the family, it's been a rollercoaster of emotions. And the fact of the matter is, our life is still, we still have that massive hole that will continue to exist. And the verdict is definitely an important aspect towards our healing. But we're just trying to figure out what's the next step in moving forward now that that chapter is closing. We have a large family, a lot of community support as well. So we have our faith that helps guide us, helps us move forward. You work as a psychotherapist and often with young people who are part of London's Muslim community there. A lot of them, I understand, were friends of Yumna Afzal, who was 15 years old at the time she was killed. I'm wondering what the experience of the young people you're talking to has been like over the last couple of years, as they presumably worked through the trauma from that attack.

Obviously, because of the nature of the attack, and there was a child, the murderer killed a child and orphaned another one, a lot of youth were impacted. The murderer killed a child and orphaned another one. A lot of youth were impacted. In our society, oftentimes the voices of youth when it comes to grief is disenfranchised. They're pushed back and it becomes, they're often not heard. And in this case where the impact of the crime, it's political. And so in a political setting, children's voices are even further pushed back. We don't think they're mature enough to talk about this. So we felt it was extremely important in this case to bring their voices forward. voices forward. And a lot of the youth that I do work with, we have used activism as a form of expressing the grief. And it's been very, it's a lovely way to be able to move forward. So I work with the youth in the Youth Coalition Combating Islamophobia, which started right after the attack.

And it was a way, it was an opportunity for the youth to channel their emotions into productive actions and to advocate for not only our London family, but to stand up against anti-Muslim hate. They've, for example, created a mural at the attack site and it's reclaiming that space. And then, you know, they've also engaged in creating an education curriculum for school boards, because as we know, the murderer was not too much older than these youth. And so it became very important for them to tackle this problem from where it might have started. And so that has allowed them to teach and take action themselves about anti-Muslim hate, which often gets ignored.

So I think making sure the voices of youth is heard in different ways was essential, and it's played a great role in their healing and empowering them to know that they should be heard and they can make a difference. So the Ifsau's family son was nine years old when the rest of his family was killed. And he was severely injured at the time. And I know the family's been very private about this. And actually, I really don't want to intrude, but it's one of the points of this story that impacted me and I think impacted a lot of people as we were learning about it. And I just wonder if you're comfortable sharing how he's doing now. And I just wonder if you're comfortable sharing how he's doing now. I mean, we definitely respect the privacy that people and media have given us.

It is difficult, obviously, and we are trying to protect his privacy. He is just a little child. But I'll say that he has lots of prayers and support from across Canada. He's got a large family and a very strong community that love him and pray for him, take care of him. He's doing well, and he's healthy and happy. And I think I'd leave it at that. And in the years since the killing, there have been events to honor the Ifsals. There's a memorial plaza built.

There's the artwork that you talked about earlier. How will you remember Salman, Madia, Yumna, and Talat? I think the biggest thing I not only remember, but try to keep alive through incorporating even in my own life, is that they were, and not just one individual person, but the entire family was, they kept others in their hearts all the time. They wanted to make sure that the other person was comfortable, even if it meant over themselves. to make sure that the other person was comfortable, even if it meant over themselves. And there's so many examples of that that I can think of for each and every one of them. And I try to incorporate that in my life, even with just a smile. If you can brighten someone's day with a smile, then, and it costs nothing on our part.

I try to do that. I try to do that if I see someone is in distress to just, you know, open those doors of communication because that's what something that they would have done. So that's, that's something, one of their biggest memories that I keep with me all the time and try to incorporate in my own life. Hannah, thanks so much. It's been great talking to you and I'm really sorry for the loss that you and your family have endured. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's been great talking to you. And I'm really sorry for the loss that you and your family have endured. Thank you. Thank you so much.

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thanks so much for coming on FrontBurner. Thanks for having me, Damon. All right. So can you take me back to Thursday when the verdict came down? Nathaniel Veltman was found guilty on four counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder. It took the jurors less than six hours of deliberation to make up their minds. What was the feeling like in the courtroom? Well, it was really tense. So it's been a really long two and a half years since the attack happened. And it's been a long two months of trial and months of testimony that included a lot of racist, Islamophobic things being said in that courtroom. Evidence pointed toward a guilty verdict, you know, since the beginning, but you just never know what a jury is going to do. The gallery of the courtroom was packed. The judge said she knew that it was going to be emotional, whatever happened, but to try our best not to react when that first guilty verdict was said.

There were sort of relieved gasps, sobs, lots of people hugging and crying and, you know, coming together because this had been such an emotional, intense, tense moment. And what was Nathaniel Biltman's reaction like? Nothing. He just sat there straight faced, sort of stone faced, looking straight ahead as he did for most of the trial. No reaction. Obviously, it's been a really emotional time for people close to the Afzal family and for the larger Muslim community in London. I guess I'm curious, is there anything, any moments that stood out last week that'll stay with you? You know, I think it was right after the verdict. We heard the verdict, everything, sort of all the bureaucratic stuff happened afterwards. And the media was gathered outside on the front steps of the courtroom. And Tabinda Bukhari came outside. Now she's the mom of one of the victims. She's an older Pakistani woman. She came out flanked by family members, by supporters. We, the relatives of our beloved London family,

Salman, Talat, Madiha, Yumna and Faiz, wish to convey our gratitude for the support and solidarity expressed during these last two and a half difficult years. And she had this strong voice, and she talked about the verdict bringing some sense of justice, that the moment of attack saw the worst in humanity, but also the best. intentions of a hell-bent criminal and the love expressed by beautiful teary-eyed strangers has become a catalyst for unity and justice. That moment when she came out and said thank you and expressed her thoughts, that moment will definitely stick with me. Now before that, the jury deliberated for only six hours

before deciding on the verdict. Can you just take us through, I guess, fairly quickly some of the key evidence that was presented before they came to that verdict? Yeah, one of the key pieces of evidence was this hours-long interview that the accused did with a detective in the hours after the attack. So, he basically told the police officer that he had been planning this attack since March. It was terrorism. I'm not going to try to get a lighter sentence by saying it was just murder, not terrorism. He said that at that point, he had been watching hours and hours of far-right material. He's called it a far-right online rabbit hole that he fell down. And he explained his views to the detective that

he wanted to commit a terrorist act. He wanted to send a message to Muslims in Canada to get out and to Muslims in the UK and others to not come here. And he also wanted to send a message to other angry young men that you can do this too, even if you have no access to a gun. He said he was inspired by other white nationalists, and he wanted to inspire others. So he said all of this in this hours long interview with a detective. And then we heard that, you know, before June 6, 2021, he bought a truck, he outfitted it with a gigantic grill bar or push bar. You know, he researched how quickly the speeds of cars at which pedestrians are more likely to die. There's a piece of paper with his handwriting found. And he wrote a document called A White Awakening, a manifesto where he mimicked some of the words that other white supremacists had used in their manifestos. some of the words that other white supremacists had used in their manifestos.

And we watched the video surveillance as he drove. It stopped right at the moment of impact, the jury had some of that read out to them. But there's a lot of stuff that they didn't see, right? Yeah, the jurors did not get to read the full manifesto that he wrote. It was heavily redacted, so there were some parts that were read aloud in court. But they also didn't get to hear that officers found a copy of Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler and other materials written by white supremacists in Veltman's apartment. That was kept from the jurors. You know, they didn't get to hear that he quoted heavily from Mein Kampf in his manifesto.

And they also didn't hear that he had a hate-on for abortion doctors. He actually told the detective that he considered making abortion doctors his target. He had pages and pages of abortion clinic addresses printed out at his apartment and directions to one clinic in Toronto on his phone. And do you have a sense of what the rationale for withholding those things from the jury was yeah it was because in canada bad character evidence is not allowed and so the judge thought that it would sort of um impede his right to a fair trial so the judge said over and over again he's not on trial for his beliefs his beliefs might be antithetical to everything the jury uh

might think but he's not on trial for his beliefs. He's on trial for this particular action. And so the fact that he, you know, didn't like abortion doctors had no bearing on the fact that he killed a Muslim family. So, so coming out of it, what's the portrait that was, that was drawn of Veltman? What came out in the trial of the kind of person he was. Yeah, well, the portrait that he painted of himself was one of this kid who grew up in a strict Christian home. He was homeschooled. He didn't have a lot of friends. A psychiatrist that testified for the defense talked about him probably being on the autism spectrum, that he had obsessive-compulsive disorder, that he was depressed.

I was at the end of my rope, Veltman said, in this state of mental deterioration, being tormented by horrible thoughts. But I think ultimately the picture that we had of him was of this really angry, screwed up young man who spent hours and hours a day online. who spent hours and hours a day online. Veltman testified he spent 12 hours a day or more watching online conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones. Now they're coming for all of our freedoms. And that he schemed to put this plot together alone. He didn't have any connections to any far-right groups or anything like that. He made sure he said that he was very careful

about not getting on any government watch lists. And ultimately it appears that the jury believed what the prosecution was saying, that he set out to kill Muslims that day and that that family just happened to be his target. So Kate, when you were on the show last time, we talked about how this trial would test Canada's terrorism laws. Do we know how the terror charges factored into the jury's deliberations? It's the first time that terrorism could be considered by a jury as a way to get to a first-degree murder verdict. So usually first-degree murder means a murder that is planned and that is deliberate. But the jury here could consider whether or not they also thought that it was terrorist activity, which is defined as an act that's motivated, an act of violence that's motivated by religious ideological or political purposes and that it's uh done the motive is to intimidate a segment of the population so in this

case muslims so we actually don't know what the jury thought because we don't know what jurors uh what happens in deliberation rooms in canada and in juries. So when the jury was polled, all of them were asked whether or not they agree with the first degree verdict. And they all said agreed with very strong, loud voices. But we won't find out what factor the terrorism charges played in the jury's deliberations. So even when the sentencing comes down, we won't have a sense of that? That's when the judge steps in. And so she is ultimately, it's called the ultimate finder of fact. So she does what's called a finding of fact, and she reads out what she thinks was a fact in this trial and what wasn't, what she believed and what she didn't from all the evidence.

So she will ultimately say, did she think that this was terrorism? Or she could say it. Now that will affect what programs Veltman might get in prison and what the parole board will hear about his crimes when he eventually comes up for parole. So Kate, can you give me a sense of what kind of sentence Veltman might be facing? Yeah, well, we know that the sentence in Canada for first degree murder is life in prison with no chance of parole for 25 years. That's non-negotiable no matter how many people you kill. That's the sentence. So that is what he will be serving. So I want to move away from the trial now and talk about the impact this has had on the community, the Muslim community in particular in London.

Obviously, it's been a hugely emotional time, a really difficult time. What have people been saying about how they've been coping with this? Yeah, well, it's been very difficult. You know, during the course of the trial, as I said, there's been some very racist, very Islamophobic things said in court. The things that he said in his manifesto, his beliefs. And Muslim community members have told me that they're just so glad it's over and that there is a sense that justice has been served, that he was found guilty. But they're also glad that this has been a time that they've been able to shine a light on the Islamophobia that they face every day, especially people who are visibly

Muslim. This family was targeted. He said he saw that they were wearing traditional Pakistani clothing, and that's why he targeted this family. And so that's really been a vehicle for people who wear traditional Islamic clothing every day to say, you know, we face Islamophobia every single day, and we need to talk about it. And so this idea that this doesn't happen in Canada is just not true. And here's an extreme example of where that leads, but also the day-to-day things that people face have really come to the forefront. So just a couple of follow-ups on that.

I guess I'm curious what kind of support has been provided in the community, if any. Yeah, well, the federal government did announce that they would provide just over $200,000 in funding for a community support program through the Muslim Resource Center here in London. And there has been a lot of coming together of people within the Muslim community, you know, therapists, imams who are talking to each other and talking to their community, saying, let's talk about this. One of the victims was a 15-year-old girl. One of the victims was a 15-year-old girl. This horrible attack really impacted all of her friends and young people in the community.

And so there's a real sense of sharing what is going on and coming together and sort of helping each other through some of the more difficult aspects of the trial and, some of the horrible things that people face every day. And then I guess the other thing I want to follow up on is that this verdict has come at a time of heightened tension, a lot of hate speech, including increased instance of Islamophobia. So I guess I'm curious how worried folks are in London and the community that something like this could happen again. They're, they're worried. worried. Someone talked about that after the verdict, that exactly like you said, there are heightened tensions, there's increasing incidents of Islamophobia as this verdict comes down, and they are worried that smaller attacks could happen

or bigger attacks. But they also said that the verdict gives them some comfort because it shows that actions will not go without consequences. And so they hope that it sends a message to someone else contemplating an attack or sitting in their room thinking about doing something like this, that it will come with consequences and it will come with the harshest consequences that we have under Canadian law. Right. Thanks so much, Kate. I really appreciate you coming on and talking about this with us. Thanks for having me, Damon. I appreciate it. That's all for today. I'm Damon Fairless. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. I'll talk to you tomorrow.