Front Burner - Hamas attacks, Israel declares war

Episode Date: October 10, 2023

After Hamas launched thousands of rockets, broke through the Israeli border and took hostages in southern towns in a surprise attack on Saturday, Israel has retaliated with its own missile strikes and declared war. Now, Hamas has threatened to execute an Israeli captive for every unannounced strike on civilians, and Israel says it will block food, water and fuel from entering Gaza in a “complete siege.” As Israeli troops amass near Gaza, what could come next? Shayndi Raice is the Wall Street Journal’s deputy bureau chief for the Middle East and North Africa, and she’s based in Tel Aviv. An earlier version of this episode stated Hamas paragliders landed at the center of an Israeli music festival before opening fire. As CBC has not independently verified the involvement of paragliders in shootings at the festival, the reference has been removed.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Damon Feralas. Hi, I'm Damon Ferliss. We are putting a complete siege on Gaza.

No electricity, no food, no water, no gas. It's all closed. We're fighting animals and are acting accordingly. This is Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Galant speaking on Monday, ordering a complete siege on Gaza, the territory Hamas launched its surprise assault from on Saturday, an attack that's left about 800 people dead in Israel and triggered an Israeli military response that's killed more than 680 Palestinians, according to authorities in Gaza. that's killed more than 680 Palestinians, according to authorities in Gaza. During the attack, Hamas fighters took hostages and Palestinian militant groups claimed that they're holding more than 130 people captive.

Hamas's armed wing has said the group will kill one Israeli civilian captive any time Israel targets civilians in their homes in Gaza, quote, without prior warning. target civilians in their homes in Gaza, quote, without prior warning. What Israel is describing as its mighty vengeance on the Palestinian militant group Hamas, Gaza has been rocked by explosions. Israel has declared war, warning of a long conflict. So today, we're going over what happened this weekend,

and what could be next as Israel amasses troops near Gaza. Shandi Rice is the Wall Street Journal's Deputy Bureau Chief for the Middle East and North Africa. She's based in Tel Aviv. And I should mention, we recorded this interview Monday. It was around 7 p.m. in Israel, So you might notice some discrepancies around numbers, which is natural given how quickly events are unfolding there. Hey, Shandi, thank you so much for coming on FrontBurner today. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Where are you now? Are you sheltering?

Not sheltering right now. I am in Tel Aviv in my apartment at home with my husband and my three kids. We, you know, just wait for the sirens and then we run into the stairwell when it happens. But there actually have not been any sirens today. Okay. So I want to lay out how Hamas' attack unfolded this weekend. It was quiet in Israel early Saturday morning. And then starting even before 7, 7 a.m., what happened?

Yeah. So, you know, Saturday is the Jewish Sabbath, Shabbat, but it was actually also a Jewish holiday. And so most people, including me, were probably having like a very lazy Saturday morning. I was actually trying not to look at my phone. And so didn't even see what was going on until much later. But at about 6.30 a.m. Israel time, Hamas started sending a barrage of rockets towards Israel, thousands of rockets towards Israel. And at the same time, they broke through the security fence that separates Gaza from Israel. They, you know, clawed their way through the fence, ripped it apart with bulldozers, drove in on ATVs, motorcycles, and they basically just decimated some of these

military bases, just massacred the soldiers who were there, who were completely surprised and not in a position at all to fight back. There have been images of just soldiers sort of shot up in their beds, kind of looking like they're running, but completely caught by surprise. And then these people, the Hamas fighters, just proceeded to enter into Israeli towns and villages and just start going from home to home, killing people, taking people hostage. You know, people went into hiding and they started burning down people's houses to basically smoke them out. There was a, like a big rave in the desert, kind of like a, you know, like a music party. There was something like 3000 people there and they just began shooting people. And there have been something like 250 bodies that have been discovered just

from that rave alone. And that number could go up. The family of a Montreal man says he is among those killed. 33-year-old Alex Luke was among thousands attending that music festival near the border with Gaza when violence erupted. So it was really Israel's worst nightmare come true, but just a complete and total shock to everybody here. Yeah, we've been watching, looking at photos and stuff, and the devastation is just unbelievable. One of the things that we've been watching, looking at photos and stuff, and the devastation is just unbelievable. One of the things that we've been hearing a lot about, too, is just how complex this operation is. So you mentioned, you know, Hamas fighters breaking through border fence with bulldozers coming in on bikes, paragliding. Can you kind of lay this out for me?

How complex was this operation? How many different modes of attack was used that we know of so far? How many different modes of attack was used that we know of so far? Land, air, and sea was a very complex operation for a group like Hamas. You know, I think complexity is obviously a relative term, right? Because Israel has one of the most technologically advanced armies in the world. And, you know, this security fence that they have supposedly had all these radars and sensors that went deep into the ground. And it was

supposed to be this iron wall that was protecting Israel. But I guess if you don't have the manpower around it, and you're sort of, you know, going to be having this old school infantry attack, you're not really prepared for that kind of warfare. But it was clear that this operation was many, many months in the planning, maybe even a year. They had to have had, you know, funds, weapons, and training beyond Gaza. And, you know, obviously taking Israel completely by surprise. And it's just, it's just mind boggling. Can you tell me, like, as Hamas fighters came into the South, what personal experiences have you, have you been hearing about from people who were there? It's just, it's just nightmare scenarios.

I mean, there are videos of fighters going in and, you know, shooting and killing people. Whole families just being completely wiped out. Parents and children. And I just saw today a video of a young kid. His sister has been trying to get his story out and he, you know, she sent these pictures of him looking adorable. And then there was this horrific video of him being dragged through the streets of Gaza by Hamas. And, you know, it's just images like that over and over and over again. And you just, it's a nightmare.

It's just like, you know, I can't even explain, like, if there was a movie made of this, you would think that it's just too crazy to happen. Do we have any sense of how many hostages there are and where they're being held or they're taken? So we think there are about a hundred. The reality is there may be more, there may be less, because we really don't know how many of those people are still alive. You know, how many people were dragged back. I mean, there are these like snapshots of many hostages, you know, that I that I've referenced. And there are also a lot of dead bodies, images of dead bodies being paraded through the streets. So it's hard to know. But the number that Israel has released is about 100.

And then in terms of where they are, Hamas has said that they have put them in underground tunnels all over Gaza. Kids, the elderly, soldiers, people from Israel and beyond, including Canada. With so many people likely to be used as human shields, Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups may see this as leverage, will want something in exchange for freeing those taken. You know, if Israel bombs Gaza, then Israelis will die. And so that's the situation that Israel is in right now. For the cities in southern Israel that the ground invasion reached, did it seem like the Israeli military was prepared to defend them?

Not at all. I mean, people are recalling waiting for something like 12 hours for help to come. People were battling on their own. The manpower was just not there to defend the kind of invasion that they had coming. And so people were really left on their own. And that's part of the reason why the death toll, the civilian death toll is just so staggeringly high. There just was not help. And they just weren't prepared for militants coming in with guns like this. Do we have a sense of how many Hamas fighters took part in the attack?

Yeah, Israel has said they think it's about a thousand. So it was a real swarm, you know, and obviously completely outmanned the Israeli military personnel who were there at the time. So it's, yeah, I mean, it's tremendous amount of manpower, but not hundreds of thousands, not even tens of thousands, but about a thousand. And it took Israel almost three days to take back the villages and the towns in the south. And, you know, the reality is that there may still be lone fighters walking around hidden in places. And, you know, we don't know what's going to happen over the next few days if they'll, you know, we don't know what's going to happen over the next few days if they'll, you know, show their faces somewhere. But Israel does have control at this

point. They've sealed the border. I mean, even over the last few days, new militants were still coming in. So it wasn't just like they all got in and then the border was closed. You know, it was two plus days of the militants continuing to stream in and supply weapons and manpower. So it sounds like the border has been secured and Israeli defense forces have taken back control of the Israeli towns and villages that were taken over, but there might still be some Hamas fighters there. Is that the sense? Yeah, that's what we're hearing at this point. Okay. So Hamas also launched thousands of rockets in addition to the ground attack we've been talking about. How prepared was Israel's military to respond and defend the cities to the rocket attacks? So that's sort of where Israel is at strongest and probably also why Israel potentially

miscalculated so badly. So the Israeli technology that really stops these rockets from having any impact is called Iron Dome. And it's an air defense system. And basically it shoots these rockets. It explodes them up in the sky. The system uses radar to identify incoming threats. It then fires an intercepting missile before these threats can cause damage. While the Iron Dome has been effective at doing its job, the volume of missiles launched from Gaza has meant that the system has been working overtime and has been unable to intercept every rocket, leading to injuries and deaths in Israel. Here in Tel Aviv, when we hear the rockets, you know, first sirens go off and everybody runs into their bomb shelters or into their stairwells. And then you hear these

loud explosions and they almost look like fireworks and you can see them kind of pop, pop, popping in the sky. And the Iron Dome is just massively successful. And it's really changed the reality for Israel in a lot of ways, because I think that people felt very much indestructible because of it, because they'd had so many of these different conflicts with Hamas, where they had launched thousands of rockets at Israel at a time, and there really wasn't a lot of damage. There was damage in the southern communities, actually, and those communities have been very, very badly impacted for years,

constantly running back and forth into bomb shelters. This has been unrelenting for this part of Israel and Ashkelon. Hundreds and hundreds of missiles have been flying into this area since Hamas launched its major attack. But the rockets are sort of like the least of Israel's problems. If there were only rockets, this would have been a very limited conflict

and not created nearly as much death and destruction as it has. Israel's put a huge investment and I think takes a lot of pride in its intelligence network and its ability to intercept when attacks are coming. So what happened here? That is the million dollar question. And I think at some point, you know, not now and probably not until this war is over, but there will be commissions and studies and, you know, PhD papers and just a lot of time to look at that question.

It's just, it's just staggering. It's really hard to understand because Israel really does have one of the most sophisticated intelligence operations. I mean, they have thousands of people, you know, of these military units that just listen to phone conversations all day. You know, the idea is that they, at least the thinking is that just listen to phone conversations all day. You know, the idea is that they, at least the thinking is that they know what Palestinians eat for breakfast. So how they missed something like this, and frankly, how the United States missed something like this, I mean, it's just, it's just really hard to understand, you know, and so I wish I had better answers. I think one day there will be answers. But at this point, all I can say is that, you know, I am just as blown away as everybody else, as I think everybody in Israel is.

In response to the rocket attacks from Hamas. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples.

Israel's also been launching missile strikes into Gaza and retaliation. What kind of damage and what have the casualties been from those? So I think that, you know, that operation is just getting started. I think that the casualty numbers will go up a lot. But so far, there are reports of 500 dead. We don't know how many of those are militants versus civilians. Israel has said that they've killed hundreds of militants. Barrages of Israeli missiles destroyed buildings at Israel claims

housed Hamas command and communication centers. This is the Jabalia refugee camp. The man filming says the building was a supermarket and that dozens were killed here. Israel insists it's only targeting militants, but ordinary people are paying an awful price. But, you know, Gaza is this incredibly small strip of land along the Mediterranean that is densely populated with two million people. And one of the hardest things for Israel,

and of course, for the Palestinians living there is that Hamas is, you know, deeply embedded within the cities and refugee camps. And, you know, there's no real like distinction between where people live and where, you know, Hamas is. And so when you're attacking Hamas, you're also going to be killing civilians. And the people in Gaza have experienced this time and time and time again. But I think that, you know, Israel is now under a tremendous amount of pressure to probably go in as strong as it ever has. I think that they probably don't have any choice now, but to completely take Hamas out, I don't think they can continue to leave them in charge as the governing body in the Gaza Strip. And so think they can continue to leave them in charge as the

governing body in the Gaza Strip. And so what that's going to look like in terms of just the humanitarian disaster that's to come, you know, all I can say is that I think it's going to probably be very, very bad. Well, Israel's defense minister said today that he's putting Gaza under siege. What does that mean? What does that entail? So he said he's going to stop electricity, food, and water. So that entails a lot. That's a pretty rough siege. Now, at the same time, there are tunnels that Hamas has built from Gaza into Egypt, and they've traditionally or historically used that to smuggle weapons. And so my guess is that they'll continue to use that. So, you know, there will be a siege that will very much impact

people's lives. But Hamas might be able to survive for a while. And what about civilians? You said like 2 million civilians in that area being fed and watered through tunnels? I don't know if they'll get food and water through tunnels. I think there's going to be a massive humanitarian catastrophe. We're on the cusp of seeing that. I don't really see any good outcome for civilians. Without veering into speculation, I'd like to talk a bit about what you'll be watching for in the coming days and weeks.

On Sunday, Prime Minister Netanyahu warned of a long conflict. All of the places Hamas is active in, in this city of evil, all the places Hamas is hiding in, operating from, we'll turn them into ruins. I'm telling the people of Gaza, get out of there now, because we're about to take action everywhere with all our force. And we've seen a lot of air attacks so far. Do you have any sense of whether there are preparations for a ground incursion into Gaza? It seems very clear that they are preparing for a ground incursion. I mean, the IDF won't say whether they're actually going to do it yet, but they are amassing troops

there down by Gaza. And, you know, I think they're just the troops are just waiting for the for the order to go in. You know, the question is how significant what will this ground operation look like? Israel has gone in with ground forces. The last time they did that was 2014. But like I said before, I really think that there's going to be pressure on Israel to take a completely different tactic when it comes to Gaza than they have in the past. They sort of had this policy that they called mowing the lawn, whereas, you know, Hamas would launch rockets into Israel. Israel would respond by bombing, you know, a bunch of rocket launch sites, a bunch of Hamas locations, you know, a bunch of civilians would end up getting caught in the middle of all of that, and there would be death and destruction. And then it

would take years for Hamas to rebuild. And then the whole thing would would sort of, you know, happen again. But you know, essentially, at the end of the day, Hamas remains in power. you know, happen again. But, you know, essentially, at the end of the day, Hamas remains in power. I don't think Israel is going to allow them to remain in power again. And so that is going to entail a very different kind of ground operation, where I think you're going to see just a lot more fighting combat on the ground. And there's going to be a loss of life on both sides, tremendous loss of life on both sides. And then I think the question is really afterwards, I mean, what on earth happens from there? Who takes over Gaza? You know, will the Israelis reoccupy Gaza? That is probably not going to be a popular thing and also would obviously cost a lot of Israeli lives in the future. But would Israel try to impose the Palestinian authority onto the people of Gaza?

That also seems like a really bad idea. Palestinian authority is weak. Their leader, Mahmoud Abbas, is 87 years old, very, very deeply unpopular. And so you can't really see that working out as the solution either. So the question is, and really always has been with Gaza, that like, what is the end game here? And Israel's attitude had been that Hamas was kind of like, sure, they were really bad and they were committed to Israel's destruction, but they were essentially pragmatic and would keep things like relatively stable. But now they've

been faced with something completely different. All right, Shandi. Thank you so much. We'll leave it there for now. We're obviously going to be following this a lot and probably coming back to talk to you about this. I really appreciate you coming on and taking time to chat with us. No problem. Thanks so much, guys. That's all for today. I'm Damon Fairless.

Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.