Front Burner - Have the Liberals met the climate change moment?

Episode Date: July 21, 2021

The Liberal government has been criticized for not acting substantially enough on the climate crisis. Former environment and current Infrastructure Minister Catherine McKenna defends her party’s actions on the issue, and explains why she believes Canada is on track to meet its emission targets.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. So when I looked out my window in Toronto this afternoon, the sky was incredibly hazy. And when I went outside, it just sort of felt like the air was sitting on me, really, really heavy.

The haze was because of forest fire smoke from northwestern Ontario and as far away as British Columbia. It was a visceral reminder that climate change is not some far-off problem. It's here, and it feels like we've been getting a lot of those reminders lately. For six years, Catherine McKenna was a key player in the Liberals' response to climate change. As environment minister, she helped implement a national carbon tax. She then moved on to become minister of infrastructure and recently announced her retirement from politics. While Canada has just committed to reduce its carbon emissions by 40 to 45 percent below 2005 levels by 2030. Many environmentalists say that the federal government is not acting quickly or substantially enough on this issue and is too beholden to the oil and gas industry.

Today, my conversation with Catherine McKenna about whether her ministry and the Trudeau government met this crucial moment in the fight against climate change. Minister McKenna, thank you very much for making the time. It's great to join. So I wonder if we could start today with some of the latest news. So in Canada, we saw a record-breaking heat wave out west recently that researchers say would not have been possible without human-caused climate change. And a town that burned to the ground, ongoing wildfires happening earlier than expected. Outside of Canada, of course, more heat waves, but also the Amazon now has started to emit more CO2 than it absorbs.

We're seeing, quote, once-in century type floods in Europe. And, you know, I recently had a child. He's about 14 months now. And I have to say, I struggled. I struggled a bit, right, with the idea of bringing a life into the world, knowing what the science is saying here. And I know that you have children as well. And I wonder how do you take in all of this news as a parent? Well, it's hard. Sometimes I think we have a disconnect. We don't really understand that the science is the science. And we just need ambitious climate action. And, you know, as much for the future for our kids, we often talk about, you know, timelines, we talk about 2030 targets or 2050. Like, I'm hoping I'm still around in 2050. But my kids, you know,

will be having kids potentially then. And we're really right now, we're at a point where we need to get our act together. You know, we in Canada, we have an ambitious climate plan, there's still more work to do, we need the whole world to be putting a price on pollution, getting off coal, making investments in reducing emissions and infrastructure, whole range of things. But we don't have time. And I really do think about this both as a mom, where I just look at my kids, and I think, you know, what future do I want for them? But also in my role and my role is, yes, a politician, but it's also someone who has developed an expertise on climate action. And so I think, you know, how can I be most useful?

Like there are some very practical things we need to do. The whole planet needs to get off coal, like now. I mean, as fast as possible, 2030 for developed countries, 2040 for China, 2050 for the rest of the world. So these are kind of moonshots, but are practical things we actually have to do. And so I look at how could I make a difference? Of course, in Canada, but also pollution doesn't know any borders. So we really need to be driving the ambition internationally too. Okay, so I think today, then I'd like to spend some time talking about the legacy of your government when it comes to fighting climate change, considering where we

are right now. And so according to the most up to date data available between 1990 and 2019, under the Conservativesatives and now under your Liberal government, we have seen Canada's greenhouse gas emissions go up 21%. Well, they've gone down for other G7 countries like Germany and the UK. And so, you know, I understand your point that we need to get moving now, but why hasn't Canada been able to do the same up until now? But why hasn't Canada been able to do the same up until now? Well, so, I mean, we've taken a whole range of measures. So there was a decade of complete inaction where we were going in the absolute wrong direction. And so we brought in a price on pollution.

We're phasing out coal by 2030, which is in advance of many other countries, including Germany, including the U.S. We're 80 percent clean electricity. We have a clean fuel standard. We have a whole range of regulatory measures. And then on top of that, we're making historic investments in infrastructure. But it takes time. You can look at our projections because what we do is we have to continuously put out our projections in a transparent way. And you will see that we are driving down. It's just when you're phasing out coal by 2030, it's not happening tomorrow. When you make an investment in a major public transit project, it doesn't happen tomorrow. So if only these investments

had been made, or this action had been taken under a previous government, and I'm not trying to point fingers, because I would say, you know, different governments have not driven climate action. It's a challenge in Canada because we're a federation. So, you know, unfortunately, you saw the fight on the price on pollution. There were provinces that were dead set against it. Now, luckily, we won at the Supreme Court. But that makes it trickier because Alberta and Saskatchewan's emissions are going up extremely significantly. And per capita, they're much higher than in other places. But you've seen in good news, ambitious action at the provincial level by B.C., by Quebec, Ontario, when they phased out coal under the McGinty government.

That was the largest reduction of emissions in Canada's history. But, you know, it does take time. Policies take time to put into effect. Oil and gas, along with transportation, are two of the biggest sources of emissions in this country. And according to the International Institute for Sustainable Development, Canada spent about $2 billion on fossil fuel subsidies last year alone, including supporting Newfoundland's offshore oil industry, for example.

And the Institute says that agencies like Export Development Canada provide on average $13 billion a year on domestic and international fossil fuel production and exploration. And so why does this government spend so much money on oil and gas when we know how much it contributes to the country's greenhouse gas emissions? Well, I mean, I think that number one, it is a transition. I mean, we still are, we are not, you know, completely electrified and have solutions across the board. But I do think there's a reckoning. I do think that we need to really think hard about the transition to a cleaner future. One, the economy is going in that direction. So it's a huge vulnerability to our economy to be overly reliant on fossil fuels that we have to get off of and the world is moving to get off of.

But also we have a moral obligation. So look, I think that that is something that there's work to be done on. But you look, I mean, we are once again, a federation. And so we have one province, well, a couple provinces, Saskatchewan and Alberta, whose emissions are going up, who continue to push against good climate policy. There's now, you know, it looks like an inquiry into folks that are pushing for climate action in Alberta. A billion dollars was spent on a pipeline that it was quite clear that if President Biden was elected, it wasn't going to go ahead.

And that money could have been used for any other investments. So I think we need to take a rational approach. And the way I look at it, I mean, put it outside of the oil and gas sector. If you're a business that's in transition and you don't have a plan for a very different future, you will go out of business. And that's when we talk about stranded assets. Like this is just about proper planning, but it's planning for jobs and workers. How are we helping workers and jobs if we're making bets that are just not going to come to fruition? I think there is certainly work and conversations that need to be had. We need to just focus on how do we support all Canadians? I certainly believe if you're a worker in the oil and gas sector, you deserve a

good job, that your community deserves to have opportunities. But we need to look at where the future is going. I mean, I know it's overused, but it's where the puck's going. And so we should be focused on that. I want to come back to that just transition for workers and your government's plan for it. You know, I've heard you talk about other provinces quite a bit so far. How much responsibility do you think the federal government has here, though? We have huge responsibility. I mean, the reality is, though, there are areas of federal and then there's the provincial jurisdiction. That's why we ended up at the Supreme Court with the price on pollution. But look, on the just transition piece, which I don't even actually really like the language, I don't think that that's great language to be using. But if you just say support for workers and communities

so they have good jobs and can succeed, we've done a fair bit in the context of coal. So we created, I think, the world's first just transition task force. And you had Hassan Youssef, so a labor leader with a panel. They went to communities where we were literally telling people they

weren't going to have a job, we're phasing out coal. And they would go to town halls, and there'd be like 600 people there. And they would be angry or upset or worried, which are completely reasonable reactions. And they had conversations. And I think what the reflections on that was that actually you have to listen to people. And people actually valued that. They couldn't believe that the federal government, that a panel would actually come to their community and hear about what they're concerned about and how they could support them. Because I actually think most people understand that the climate is changing. And most people want to take serious action.

Just to stay on this topic for a moment of the oil and gas subsidies, like, a lot of this money is coming from the federal government. And, you know, the International Monetary Fund estimates that elimination of fossil fuel subsidies would reduce CO2 emissions by 28%. And, you know, I do wonder here if part of the problem is that this government, as critics have said, is too cozy with the oil industry. So for example, Martin Lukacs from The Breach recently reported that during the pandemic, a committee was created that included high ranking liberal government officials and heavy hitters in the oil and gas industry. And there were frequent meetings to figure out ways for the industry to stay active and viable. This is a lot of money here that these companies have been receiving.

So I think, first of all, because I think we talk in the abstract, like what are we talking about as possible fossil fuel subsidies? I think this is a really important conversation that Canadians need to have. But fossil fuel subsidies range from communities that are on diesel. And it's really expensive because, you know, the cost of living is expensive there, so they get subsidies so that life conversation around whether we should be supporting, you know, these companies to reduce their emissions significantly? I think that's a good conversation. But it's not in some ways often what is counted as a fossil use subsidy. I know some organizations count if you don't have a provincial sales tax. Like, I'm not entirely sure. Like, I think you got to get into the weeds of this. I don't disagree with the sense that you've got to create the right incentives and not the wrong ones. Do you really think, though, that the majority of this money is going to initiatives that

would either be considered, you know, necessary by taxpayers or important by taxpayers or initiatives that that would fight climate change. You know, Imperial Oil, for example. Yeah, if I could just give you this example. Imperial Oil claimed $120 million through the Wade subsidy program this year and issued $320 million in dividends, according to a recent report. So I think that's unacceptable. So, I mean, this is Catherine McKenna speaking. Look, we had programs through COVID. So we're now bringing

those into a fossil fuel subsidy discussion. I mean, those were programs that were open to any company. So in a way, I guess, you know, you could say those are fossil fuel subsidies because they're going to these companies. But it was really so we could keep people in jobs. Now, should a particular company have received them? I mean, I think we will see. And I think that, you know, when people are paying large dividends, and they're getting money, I don't know, that is an issue. And I think that that's something that, you know, Canadians would not have a lot of tolerance for. And personally, I don't have a lot of tolerance for. Would you like to see these subsidies big time curtailed or eliminated altogether? Well, as I say, like you can't, you actually have to go kind of line by line and see what

exactly we're talking about. There are federal, there are obviously federal subsidies. Some are probably things that Canadians would say are useful. Some would say no. And then there are a lot of provincial subsidies. You know, different provinces have incentives in place, some would say no. And then there are a lot of provincial subsidies, you know, different provinces have incentives in place. I would say that it is extremely important to look at the incentives, how we are reducing emissions, how we're driving to a cleaner future. Because you could say, and I don't want to be repetitive, but I do think this is a conversation Canadians need to think about. If you have, for example, you know, a smaller oil and gas company, take it in Alberta, and they have a way to upgrade so they can significantly reduce emissions when they produce oil and gas. Is that something we want to do?

It would reduce emissions, but then some people would say, well, that's not a sector we should be investing in at all. And as I say, like, these are real conversations. Climate policy is like real life. It actually, you have to not have it in the abstract. I think folks often have it in an abstract. They don't think about people. They also don't think about science on climate. I mean that probably more politicians, but it's on us to really unpack this.

I guess, sorry, I'll just ask one more time. on us to really unpack this. I guess, sorry, I'll just ask one more time. You know, just as you, as, you know, former environment minister, current infrastructure minister, as somebody who's sort of leaving politics, do you feel like your government could have done more here on the issue of subsidies? Well, I mean, we definitely, as I said, I think we've had a review. I think that we've removed a number of subsidies. Is there more to do? I think so, for sure. But just more broadly on climate, like we have worked extremely hard. Like I know life isn't about how hard you worked, but looking across the board, climate is actually, as I say, it's just like a very functional thing. Where are your emissions coming from? How do you reduce them in the most ideally efficient way? How do you consider folks'

livelihood and jobs and our economy? You got to look at a lot of different factors. That's not an excuse. I think we've actually done a lot. We had no plan and a target. Now we have a plan that's going to exceed the target. But of course, we need to do more. And the world is shifting fast. So I think there's huge opportunities and a huge risk can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization.

Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I want to come back to this idea of a just transition

that you were talking about earlier, you know, for these oil and gas workers who are understandably, like, really worried about what their future might hold. And just also speaking of your climate plan, I have read it, and there are not a lot of details about what that just transition would actually

look like. What would you say to critics, Unifor, for example, that represents 12,000 oil and gas workers who feel like this government hasn't done enough to ensure that there will be a just transition for people? You know, the countries that are serious about having a transition plan for workers are trying to figure out how to do it because it's not that easy. Right. You can't just say, OK, we're going to take one job in the oil and gas sector and suddenly you're going to be making the same amount of money in a unionized position in the green economy. Life doesn't actually work like that. So I think there's a lot more work that needs to be done to understand how best to do it. This is something I grapple with a lot. Can't just be told done to understand how best to do it. This is something I grapple with a lot. Can't just be told you're not going to have a job, right? Like that you're kind of collateral

damage. And then you know what happens? You know what they say? They say people in cities, you know, who can go, you know, and go sip their Starbucks lattes are like, you know, they don't care about us. And that's not a good situation. It really isn't because these are real people with real jobs. And let's all be clear, we all benefited from coal, we all benefited from oil and gas. In fact, we're still benefiting. But that that doesn't mean we don't have to move forward. And that doesn't mean but it also doesn't mean that you can't have empathy. I think empathy and climate is extremely important empathy for young people who are honestly that they have depression related to climate change, empathy for Indigenous peoples who are worried about, you know, their lands, about their traditional medicines, about the thawing permafrost, and empathy for workers

who are in the oil and gas sector. But I guess just I'll ask one more time, what would you say to critics who say like, your government would have seen this coming a long time ago and should have done way more earlier here to make sure that there are, like, very real plans in place? who care about climate issues, looked at the resources that this government marshaled, and they are questioning today, why hasn't more been done like that with the climate emergency? Like I'm talking Green New Deal type stuff here, like massive, massive, massive investments in energy efficient housing, guaranteed jobs to anyone, good jobs, union jobs to anyone who wants one in these sectors. Like, why aren't we applying what we did in the pandemic to the climate crisis? So I think that that's what we need to do. But I think look, I think the pandemic, though, is a useful guide. Because what happened, and I talked about this, what happened in the pandemic, we had a very clear goal, we needed to

get out of it. We needed to support people and we needed to get a vaccine. And we marshaled the resources from the public sector, the private sector. And look, we were able to, I think, you know, we're not at the end of this. We were able to get out of the pandemic. I totally agree. I think we need to think like that when it comes to the climate crisis. Because that is the biggest challenge. And that we all Canada, every single country needs to wake up every day have the clear goal, which is a temperature goal, well believed below two degrees striving for 1.5. Really listening to science and scientists. I mean, now you can just look out the window because I'm

looking here at haze in downtown Toronto from forest fires. Yeah, it's brutal. I'm also here. It's brutal. And it's actually an air quality issue. So it's actually a health issue right now, but also just everyone working together. And I think that that is something that in Canada, it is a challenge with the provinces. It is very important that provinces come on side. Provinces, municipalities, the federal government, the business sector. The business sector has to take responsibility. Now, a lot of companies are

talking about net zero by 2050. Okay, let's see your plan, right? I mean, I've had to do a plan, and we actually have to publish it all. We have to publish our emissions every year and how we're tracking on our plan. So everyone needs to be part of this. Canadians need to be part of it, And the whole world needs to be part of it. And so, you know, people say, well, you're leaving politics, like, we need every country actually to do what Canada is doing. You know, I think now probably I can be more useful, actually working with other countries, for example, to get the whole world off coal, because we don't get off coal, doesn't matter all these other measures we're doing, everyone needs to get off coal. But I wonder just as a final question on that note that you are leaving politics, but plan to stay dedicated to this fight against

climate change. Do you worry that you're giving the impression that more substantive work can be done from outside government than within it? And I guess, frankly, do you feel that more substantive work can be done from outside government than within it? So that was really a surprising question when people said that, because Canada is one country. Like we have a climate plan. After a decade of nothing going the wrong way, we have a climate plan. We have regulatory measures. We have to grind away. We have to continue moving forward. There's more work to be done for sure. But the rest of the world has to do this. Like if China doesn't get off coal and make the transition, India, Indonesia, where I lived for

three years, if we all don't work together, it doesn't work like that. Like pollution doesn't know any borders. So my focus, I believe in the future, I will always be pushing Canada and I will be calling people out. Don't worry if I don't think we're taking ambitious action or we're backtracking. And I will continue to work with Indigenous peoples in Canada. That's extremely important to me. But I think the whole world needs to act. And I believe through my, you know, the opportunities I've been given internationally through COP21, but also we created the Ministerial on Climate Action with China in Act. And I believe through my, you know, the opportunities I've been given internationally through COP 21, but also we created the Ministerial on Climate Action with China and the UK, the Powering Past Coal Alliance. We also worked very hard to get countries to do,

follow Canada to protect 30% of our nature. Like I need to, I think, play a role pushing that internationally. So every other country does this and also support developing countries who need investments and need support to actually make the transition. I mean, some who will be underwater if we don't stay well below two degrees. So look, there's a lot of work to go around. It's not just in politics, but politics is extremely important. But globally, we need a lot more work too. Okay. Catherine McKenna, thank you very much. Thanks. Great. All right.

So before we go today, some news. As of late Tuesday, British Columbia has declared a state of emergency as fires there continue to grow. The declaration will allow the government to speed up mass evacuations and to secure accommodation for people if needed. As of yesterday, there were more than 2,800 properties under evacuation order province-wide and more than 10,000 properties under alerts. More than 3,000 square kilometers of land have been burned by wildfires in BC so far this season, three times the 10-year average for this time of year. I'm Jamie Poisson.

Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.