Front Burner - Hong Kong’s uncertain future

Episode Date: May 29, 2020

China’s ceremonial parliament, the National People’s Congress, endorsed a national security law for Hong Kong on Thursday. Many residents are concerned that the law will undermine civil liberties and might be used to suppress political activity. Today on Front Burner, journalist and lawyer Antony Dapiran on what this might mean for Hong Kong’s future, and whether this could signal the end of “one country, two systems” in the former British colony.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Pia Chattopadhyay. On Thursday, China's parliament passed the draft resolution of its controversial national security law. It's meant to criminalize acts that are seen to undermine the Chinese government's authority.

And for many, this signals the end of one country, two systems, a political promise made when Hong Kong, a former British colony, was handed over to China in 1997. It allowed people in Hong Kong certain civil liberties not found in mainland China. This week, thousands of protesters took to the streets of Hong Kong to make their fears and discontent around the new law known. Protests about China's long reach have really become part of the fabric of Hong Kong life. Last June, what began as demonstrations against a proposed extradition bill would later turn into a call for greater democratic freedoms. call for greater democratic freedoms. Today, journalist and lawyer Antony Dapperin is here to help us understand what the national security law might mean for the future of Hong Kong. He's the author of City on Fire, The Fight for Hong Kong. This is FrontBurner. Anthony, we're reaching you late Thursday night Hong Kong time. What has the reaction been like in Hong Kong to the security law progressing forward by an overwhelming majority?

Well, it wasn't really a surprise. I mean, it's not known as China's rubber stamp parliament for nothing. So the reaction has been fairly muted, but also I think it has cast a dark shadow over the city. I want to go out on the streets of Hong Kong. Weekly demonstrations are planned until July. And watching videos on social media, you notice the presence of police on the streets. What are you seeing on that front?

Yeah, from the beginning of this year, really, the police have tried a new, at least compared to last year, and very aggressive tactics on the streets. The police have been intervening much earlier to try and stop any kind of large protest or large gathering occurring. Last Sunday, there was an attempt to have some protests against this national security bill. Police put in roadblocks across the city to stop people being able to get to the protests. They were out in force across the city conducting stop and search operations, in particular of young Hong Kongers, the demographic that tend to join these protests. They were undertaking mass arrests and when crowds did gather, they were intervening much earlier with force, with the use of tear gas and water cannons and so on to disperse

the crowds. And that's been a tactic the police have adopted in recent months to try and stop the cycle of large protests that Hong Kong saw last year. So this legislation now has the approval of the NPC, the National People's Congress in China. Is this a done deal or is there another step in this process? So the next step is now the standing committee of the National People's Congress in Beijing will go ahead and draft the detailed provisions of that law. Hong Kong itself will not be involved in that process. That's going to be undertaken, as I say, entirely in Beijing by the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress. And once they've concluded their drafting process, the law will be announced to be effective in Hong Kong.

The thing about laws is that the devil's in the details. And the details in this particular one are still quite limited. Like we know that it would ban treason, secession, sedition and subversion. But really, we don't know too much. We don't know too much more of what's in it. What do you think is the intent behind this law? The law looks like it's going to be aimed at a couple of key targets. The first is people among the protest movement and activists here in Hong Kong who have been advocating or talking about Hong Kong independence. Now, this is really a hot-button issue for Beijing.

Any suggestion that there would be any compromise of what they call the territorial integrity of the People's Republic of China is something that is anathema to them. The second thing that they are concerned about, and this has come out through official government spokespeople and official PRC state media, is this what they call foreign forces or the interference by foreign governments and foreign organizations in Hong Kong. And China really has set up a narrative blaming foreign interference for the protests in Hong Kong and saying that the protests are all the work of foreign governments and other foreign organizations wanting to cause trouble for China.

And so I think the law is going to be targeting both foreign governments, foreign organizations, and even foreign individuals who are somehow involved in or that Beijing believes is involved in financing, organizing, or aiding and abetting the protests here in Hong Kong and trying to put a stop to that. You know, one might think that this is a standoff between Hong Kong and mainland China. But when you look at it, the chief executive of Hong Kong, Carrie Lam, supports this law. And earlier this week said, look, it's just going to target a small group of illegal criminals. And overall, I support this because it's going to restore law and order in the city state. There is no need for us to worry because time and again in the last 23 years, whenever people worried about Hong Kong's freedoms of speech and freedoms of expressions and protests,

time and again, Hong Kong has proven that we uphold and preserve those values. So I think the best thing is... She has been a controversial leader through the months of protests we have seen in Hong Kong. But how are people reacting to her saying these kinds of things? I think it's fair to say that Carrie Lam doesn't have any friends on any side of politics in Hong Kong now. And a fury fuelled by what they see as police brutality against protesters this week, Hong Kong hit the streets, peacefully but persistently. Bringing demands that the chief executive resign,

even after softening her insistence on the controversial extradition law that started all this. She has been a disastrous chief executive for Hong Kong. It was her proposal to introduce this extradition bill that led to all the protests that rocked Hong Kong for months last year. She was unable to find any kind of political resolution to those protests. And it reached the point where Beijing effectively sidelined her when Beijing saw that she had created this mess and was unable to resolve it. So, of course, the pan-Democrats here in Hong Kong are not fans of hers. Not only that, even the pro-Beijing political parties don't like her either

because she had a terrible impact on their reputation and their vote share at the ballot box. She hasn't been able to implement any of the policies that they want implemented either. And so she really has been reduced to this sort of puppet figure. And so when Beijing announced this new national security bill last week, and Carrie Lam and all her ministers fell into line, read almost identically matching scripts that look like they've come straight out of the Central Propaganda Bureau in Beijing. No one was surprised, but also no one really cared because she's become such a marginal and, dare I say, detested figure in Hong Kong that people don't feel that she's speaking for their interest or even with any integrity for herself.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Prominent pro-democracy activist Joshua Wong said, and this is quote, the new law will kill future democratic movements and murder any slight chance to seeking justice in this city. Is this the death knell for the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong that you have been chronicling for so many years now? Yeah, look, it certainly has sent a chill through that community. In the days since the law has been announced,

discussing it among people who are involved in the pro-democracy movements and activists here, they're talking about having to sweep clean their social media accounts and social media postings, talking about whether they should even continue to speak into the media, carrying out their advocacy. They're worried about all of their activities. And certainly this is having a deeply chilling effect on the democracy movement in Hong Kong. Help me out here. If this law is finalized, the language around it is improving enforcement mechanisms in Hong Kong. So does this mean that Chinese police forces would be working on Hong Kong soil? Well, this is one of the really key points that the government has said that the law will continue

to be enforced by the Hong Kong criminal justice system. That is that the Hong Kong police will investigate these cases and they'll be tried in Hong Kong courts using all the usual standards that we would expect for fair trials here in Hong Kong courts. But at the same time, the decision also contained a key clause that said, in order to safeguard national security, Chinese central government national security organs will be able to set up branches in Hong Kong and carry out their national security operations in Hong Kong. So that's one of the other things that people are really afraid of, that in fact, what we're going to have here is two parallel systems, the official justice system here in Hong Kong with the police and the courts and so on,

and then a second shadowy parallel system where we may be seeing arbitrary detentions and kidnappings and so on by the Chinese secret police here on the ground in Hong Kong. Wow. The other thing that sort of struck me was as sort of perhaps a hint, maybe more than a hint of how this is going to go down is that is the NPC didn't wait on this, they just intervened directly rather than going through Hong Kong government officials. What should we read into that? A couple of things. I think it shows that Beijing had lost patience with the legislative process here in Hong Kong, they felt that the legislature here had become somewhat dysfunctional

and wasn't getting the job done. I think it also shows that Beijing was very concerned about the protests last year, the open defiance that the protesters showed last year towards Beijing's rule and really the most sustained challenge to party rule in any part of China, at least since 1989,

if not even since the founding of the People's Republic. And any part of China, at least since 1989, if not even since the founding of the People's Republic. And then last of all, I think it's a message that Beijing, by acting in this way, is sending to three different audiences. Firstly, to the audience in Hong Kong, that they're not going to tolerate this kind of defiance. Secondly, to a domestic political audience, to send a message that the party is very much in control in all parts of China. And thirdly, they're sending a message to the rest of the world, to foreign governments, and I think in particular to the United States, given the ongoing tensions between China and the United States, that China is not going to brook any interference and is going to

do exactly what it pleases with Hong Kong, regardless of what other people say. Well, I'm glad you brought up the international scale of all of this, because it's very key here. Protesters have called on foreign governments to get involved, in particular the United Kingdom, the U.S. On Wednesday, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, who condemned the plans for the national security law, notified Congress that the Trump administration no longer regards

or sees Hong Kong as autonomous from mainland China. Now you say, look, China's saying, butt out, get out of our business. Does it make any difference what, you know, the US, the UK, or Canada says at this point? I do think that notwithstanding the appearance they give to the outside world, that they will do whatever they like, and they're not going to listen to any other party as they implement their policies and laws. The Chinese government is sensitive to its reputation. Now, bearing in mind, President Xi Jinping had a very and still has a very ambitious program to rejuvenate the Chinese nation. And so the Chinese government are sensitive to their international reputation. And so I think the hope is that by speaking out and by the international community putting some kind of pressure on China,

they can at least moderate China's own worst instincts and try to ensure that the matter is handled at least as far as possible in the best interests of the Hong Kong people. as far as possible in the best interests of the Hong Kong people. Of course, relations between the US and China are tricky at best right now. And with Canada-China relationship, they're difficult right now. And you know this well, that we as a country have had a strong relationship with Hong Kong. An estimated 300,000 Canadians live in Hong Kong. We, of course, have had many immigration waves here. And right now, with the Mangwanzhou extradition process here in Canada and the two Canadians being detained in mainland China, things aren't great in our relationships. What do you think the Canadian government might be able to do here? It so far has just expressed its deep concern about the national security law. Yes, I think the current situation between the US and China puts other countries such as Canada,

such as my own home country of Australia, such as Japan, in a very difficult position, because all of our countries have close relationships with the United States. Yet, we also have important trading relationships with China. And trying to balance those two, it becomes a real challenge. No one is going to be bolder than what the US is going to do. And I think to a certain extent, other governments may be guided by the US or at least see the US as sort of the high watermark here. And in terms of exactly what the US is going to do, that's going to be actually quite a difficult needle to thread because as you said, Mike Pompeo has declared that the US is no longer considering Hong Kong to be autonomous. That then triggers a whole raft of measures that the administration is entitled to

take under the Hong Kong Policy Act and the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act, but exactly what measures they take that put pressure on the Chinese government, on Chinese government leaders, on Hong Kong government leaders to take action, but without harming the Hong Kong people themselves and harming, dare I say, the interests of American businesses in Hong Kong is going to be very tricky. The big picture of all this, of course, is that people are talking essentially about the end of Hong Kong in the sense of one country, two systems, that Hong Kong's not going to possess any autonomy after this law's passed.

Do you see it that way? I mean, will there be, in your opinion, any room left for dissent? It certainly suits Beijing's purposes to have Hong Kong in a largely recognizable form, at least as an international financial centre. The Hong Kong dollar, the Hong Kong's separate legal system and court system, an uncensored internet, those sorts of basic structures

around which the Hong Kong International Financial Centre is built because China's own companies need this city as a financial centre for themselves to raise capital and even more so I dare say if they're if they're pushed out of the US as increasingly seems to be the case that said and I think you really hit the nail on the head with your question that how much dissent is tolerated as part of that overall framework is going to be the key the key issue so even though Hong Kong commercially may have a lot of autonomy and administratively will have a

lot of autonomy from a political point of view it's going to look more and more like the mainland. And that means that the scope of accepted behavior in terms of dissent, in terms of freedom of speech, in terms of the kind of things that you can talk about in public and the causes you can advocate for and the issues that you can organize for will increasingly become constrained over the years. And I think that people are feeling that this is what's really going to be lost, that sense of Hong Kong as a bastion of freedom in not only China, but the Asian region as a whole. Hong Kong residents, as a people, they pride themselves on their resilience, and they pride themselves in the civil liberties that they have had, given the region's history as a British colony.

What will happen to that Hong Kong identity now? I think that Hong Kongers' identity and their solidarity is very resilient and very determined. And you see that going out on the streets among the protesters when you talk to them about their feelings. They feel very passionate about their home and wanting to defend their home and the rights and freedoms they enjoy here.

We want to have democracy and freedom in Hong Kong, which is already written in the basic law. But after returning to China for more than 20 years, we didn't have any progress in this state alternatively. The CCP is trying to suppress Hong people, the Hong Kong people, in a more serious manner. We're trying to safeguard our human rights. We're trying to safeguard Hong Kong. We don't want Hong Kong to be China. When you see them gathered in shopping malls for mass singings of what they call their Hong Kong anthem,

this song, Glory to Hong Kong, that was written during the protest last year. You see the passion and the commitment and the determination and the pride in their eyes and you hear it in their voices. And I am a strong believer that this Hong Kong community is very resistant and they're going to keep fighting for what they value and what they believe in. And I think they're not going to simply give up so easily. So I think that's been one of the great strengths of Hong Kong and I think will continue to be one of the great strengths of Hong Kong. And that's will continue to be one of the great strengths of Hong Kong, and that's the thing that really gives me hope for the future of this city.

Anthony, thank you for making the time for us, and I appreciate your analysis on this. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you. That's all for today. FrontBurner comes to you from CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show was produced this week by Imogen Burchard, Elaine Chow, Shannon Higgins, Ali Janes, and Nahayet Tisoush. Derek van der Wyk does our sound design with help this week from Matt Cameron.

Our music is by Joseph Chabison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of Frontburner is Nick McCabe-Locos. I'm Pia Chattopadhyay. Thanks for listening. And we're going to have a bonus episode for you this Saturday. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.