Front Burner - Horse dewormer the latest trend in COVID-19 misinformation

Episode Date: September 1, 2021

False claims about COVID-19 have people calling up Alberta farm supply stores looking for a livestock dewormer called ivermectin. Vera Bergengruen tells us why.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. Lance Olson runs a feed and animal supply store just outside of Calgary. And lately, he's been getting a lot of new interest in his business from people who want to see if he has something in stock called ivermectin. The number of calls that we've gotten, I mean, I've got the numbers from our Google searches here, there's probably close to 7,000 searches for ivermectin.

And there's probably close to 1,250 for our actual store name. In small, quality-controlled, human-sized formulations, ivermectin has been used for decades, fighting the parasites that lead to certain tropical diseases. The stuff in Lance's feed store obviously does not fit into that category. It's meant to get rid of worms in horses' guts and stomachs. It's meant as a dewormer. So these people see this Ivermectin liquid, they search it, our website comes up, and then they give us a call thinking that we can just sell it to them.

They'll find somebody somewhere that'll sell it to them is the feeling I get, but they're upset that they have to keep looking. And people do keep looking. My colleagues heard from two other feed stores who confirmed they've been receiving these calls about ivermectin for months. Someone else who got a request recently for ivermectin is Dr. Michael Chatenay, a general surgeon in Edmonton. One of the patients that we accepted actually did swap positive for COVID. And as soon as they found out, the first thing they asked

is if they could get some ivermectin. Because they obviously heard on Twitter or Facebook or wherever that this was the new miracle cure for COVID. Well, I was, to be honest, shocked but not surprised because I've seen this sort of wellspring of enthusiasm amongst the conspiracy theory websites that this is the new thing to help you if you don't want to get vaccinated. So how did this drug become the latest trend in COVID-19 misinformation? That's what Vera Bergen-Gruen is here to break down with me today.

She's a journalist with Time Magazine who's been looking into this phenomenon. Hi, Vera. Thank you so much for making the time to talk with me today. Thanks so much for having me. I have to be honest, when I hear about people taking animal dewormer, I have a lot of questions. I have a world of questions for you today. But I wonder if we could start with a basic one. Why are people taking this? What are they thinking or hoping ivermectin will do?

What are they thinking or hoping ivermectin will do? So ivermectin is an antiparasitic that is much more commonly used for horses and livestock, you know, against parasitic worms. But it's also taken in some cases for humans who have, you know, parasites or something like that. So it's something that most people weren't familiar with until recently when it kind of became the medication or treatment of choice for people who don't support vaccines or who don't think they're effective and who want to use that as a COVID treatment or a cure or something they think will prevent it. So it's a long, complicated story as to how we got to that point. But that is kind of why people are taking it now. People are hoping that the people who are taking it here are relying on some pretty slim studies that haven't really been verified and

haven't really been tested broadly, that they say show that taking this antiparasitic is going to either prevent or treat COVID if you've got it. So that is why we're seeing such a big uptick in this. Okay. And I wonder then if you could take me down that sort of long and complicated road of how we got here. Like when did ivermectin first come on the scene as it relates to COVID-19? Sure. Here in the United States, it really kind of came on the scene in December 2020 when the Congress had a doctor speaking

about kind of alternative COVID treatments. And he was singing its praises and saying that there was this, he called it a wonder drug. He said, there's this wonder drug that can prevent or treat COVID and we need to devote much more resources to studying it. And people really latched onto that. And this was, keep in mind, I mean, everyone knew about hydroxychloroquine, which was a different drug

that was touted by the White House here, by President Trump. It was supposed to be this great, cheap, preventative measure and cure for COVID. But when Trump himself got sick in October last year, he didn't even take it. And that drug seemed to fall out of favor. People didn't think it would be as effective. And so they all kind of turned towards ivermectin. Starting in December last year, now in the last couple of weeks,

in the last two months or so, is because of this massive surge, this Delta variant surge in the last couple of weeks, in the last two months or so, is because of this massive surge, this Delta variant surge in the United States. You know, there's entire, right now, there's five states here that are almost completely out of ICU beds, hospital systems are completely slammed. And it's almost completely what the CDC director here called, you know, a pandemic of the unvaccinated. So it's mainly unvaccinated people who are getting very, very sick and who are ending up in the hospital. And they're searching, they're not changing their minds about the vaccine, but there's been this big surge of

interest in anything that they can kind of latch onto as something that might treat or prevent COVID as they themselves or their family members and their friends are getting so sick and ending up in the hospital. And so we've seen this big, it's become a kind of a public health issue in the last couple of weeks, but it really has been brewing for about a year as all these, a couple of kind of alternative doctors have been praising it as a wonder drug. your drive. I wonder if you could talk to me a little bit about what it is doing to people, because I am hearing these very worrisome stories online about what is happening to people who are taking taking ivermectin, like particularly ivermectin that's been formulated for like horses and pigs and cows. Yeah, I mean, it's been pretty dire here recently, because, you know, that we've had the some states poison control centers say that up to 70% of all

the calls they're getting is about people overdosing on ivermectin for livestock. And, you know, it is, it's an FDA approved drug for humans to treat specific, specific parasitic infections in humans. But it's very, very specific cases. And if you did have one of those illnesses, the doctor would prescribe it to you with very specific instructions. But because it's not approved for COVID, there is no instructions that come even with people who do get access to human ivermectin or the formulation for horses. And, you know, the overdoses can cause, you know, seizures. There's all kinds of side effects you can have that make people quite sick. And in some cases, they warn that if you overdose, you could even die. A lot of people are taking

ivermectin, again, meant for horses, meant for livestock. And on all of these forums and online kind of anti-vaccine groups that I've been researching, people are desperately trading with each other dos you're desperately trading with each other dosages. They're saying, how much should I take? How much do I give my child? You know, it's supposed to be by weight, but the weight is calculated for a horse. So, you know, it's very complicated. And in a sense, you know, something that is baffling a lot of health officials who say that these people distrust an approved and kind of, you know, tested vaccine, but are willing to listen

to some alternative medical sources about how to properly dose themselves with this, this paste, again, meant for horses, it's supposed to taste like apple, apparently tastes like Vaseline. But it's not something that is just constrained to kind of conspiracy or anti vaccine forums. I mean, if you go to TikTok, you know, the world's largest social video app, there's teenagers, there's, you know, so many people kind of singing its praises. And so it's definitely having a, you know, it seems like something that a lot of people

will kind of see even on mainstream platforms and kind of assume it's safe. Your boy tested positive for COVID. Started taking some of this uh ivermectin paste that i got at tractor supply yesterday this is the ivermectin and i'm about to take it so this is the dial that i'm supposed to be on i weigh like 150 i don't really know where somewhere about around there so um you twist it, adjust it to your weight. It's the same thing, whether it's a paste, a liquid, or pill form.

It's the same medicine. For all these people thinking you're taking animal medicine, you're an idiot. And speaking of some mainstream platforms here, I understand there have been some figures in the U.S., especially on the right, who have essentially wound up giving these ideas more of a platform. So people like podcaster Joe Rogan, Laura Ingram, Tucker Carlson. And can you tell me a bit more about how that has played out? Yeah. And, you know, we've seen a lot of these

figures. It's become similar to hydroxychloroquine. It's something that appeals to a specific demographic that really distrusts the U.S. government. It distrusts health authorities. It distrusts, you know, the CDC, the FDA, Dr. Fauci. So anything that these agencies say shouldn't be used, they claim that it's being suppressed. They claim that, you know, doctors who support this are being silenced. And that's a narrative that appeals a lot to a right wing audience. But it's actually interesting. It also appeals to, you know, this kind of more liberal audience of kind of people who follow holistic health and, you know, kind of alternative treatments. So a lot of these kind of prominent personalities have been promoting it under the guise of listen, we're just asking questions, we're just saying some doctors say this might

be useful. But the danger and the problem here is that, you know, every doctor I spoke with, I spoke to have a dozen medical doctors who are infectious disease experts and who have treated COVID patients. And they all say, listen, you know, if we can study this and it turns out this helps in any way with COVID symptoms, it's something we can use. That is fantastic. So far, those studies don't exist, though. The people who support this cite studies that some of which have been withdrawn and most of which haven't really been scientifically found.

some of which have been withdrawn and most of which haven't really been scientifically sound. And the problem is that most prominent people who are promoting this are also promoting into an audience that is dead set against the vaccine. People are saying, I'm not going to get vaccinated, but if I get sick, I'll just get some ivermectin and that's going to cure me. And clearly that's just not the case. And it's actually preventing a lot of people from seeking the help that they need. People are taking this as almost literally like a miracle cure.

They think that this will, and it's partly based off all these testimonials of people that they trust much more than they trust any health authorities that are promoting the vaccine. Right. promoting the vaccine. Right. So that was kind of the next question that I was going to get at here, like the logic behind taking this versus the vaccine. Is this what you're hearing from people that they're trusting the figures that are touting this more than they trust the establishment? the establishment? They do. And it's feeding off, I mean, it's very concerning to all these health experts and officials I've spoken with, because there's this, you know, massive disinformation, online disinformation network that has obviously existed since the start of the pandemic, which is kind of understandable, just given how isolated people are and how scared they are and how unprecedented this global pandemic is within our lifetimes. But it's very, very hard to break. I mean,

U.S. health officials and doctors I spoke with at our complete loss about how to get through to people who would never listen to anything they say. Right. I want to get back to that in just one second. What on earth to do about this? But these doctors who are promoting ivermectin, are they benefiting from promoting this still unproven drug in any material way? The thing to understand about the doctors that are promoting ivermectin is that they are a very bizarre cast of characters that span a lot of different backgrounds some of them are clearly in it for prestige or for you know they have hundreds of thousands of loyal devoted followers who praise them as these truth

fighters and freedom fighters but on the other end they are, at least the ones that I have been reporting on, have clearly some financial stake in it as well. They, you know, have set up telemedicine websites where they likely are getting a cut from referring thousands of people who follow them. And they have this, you know, again, hundreds of thousands of people who follow them on all these social media, who they have registered in their email database. And every time they feel like they are under attack or they want to kind of solicit donations, they can email this group of 400,000 people and say, we are under attack. You know, they want to silence us. We need your donations. And from my reporting, thousands and thousands of people are donating to their cause because they really believe in it. These people are telling them what they want to hear.

Wow. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people

and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. We've been talking, obviously, about the U.S., but I just want to spend a moment talking about Canada here. So just a note for our

listeners, you know, we talked about big American voices who have given a platform to some of these ideas. We've seen some Canadian voices as well. Calgary mayoral candidate Kevin Johnston, who has been a leader in the COVID denial movement, has talked about it. Former Alberta politician and talk radio show host Danielle Smith has talked about it. She suggested in a recent newsletter that information about ivermectin is being suppressed by the Alberta Health Services and the College of Physicians and Surgeons. And Derek Sloan, former conservative MP who was kicked out of the party. He was recently criticizing conservative leader Aaron O'Toole. And he said, you know, quote, he's mentioned a lot of liberal catchphrases, but I've never heard him mention ivermectin or many other drugs that could be useful in this fight.

And I understand that you've been getting a lot of messages from people in Canada and also other countries with this. And what have you been hearing? That's definitely true. And that is also very visible in the social media platforms I've been covering because people contact groups like this one. I was writing about this right wing U.S. group, America's Frontline Doctors. But a big part of their following seems to be abroad and they are begging them to set them up with ivermectin. a big part of their following seems to be abroad and they are begging them to set them up with ivermectin. So for example, I will be reading all these messages from people saying, you know,

they're in Toronto, they're in Alberta, they're, well, they're different parts of Canada and they are asking if they can pay them to ship ivermectin to Canada. And, uh, you know, it really shows, this has been true throughout the entire pandemic, but whatever one kind of big misinformation campaign takes off, it tends to just kind of cross borders very, very fast. Same as the film your hospital movement, where people didn't believe that hospitals were actually full of COVID patients. And the hydroxychloroquine had the same thing. And now with ivermectin, I mean, it's kind of amazing. For example, it's also sold on Amazon, and it's the horse version. And then people in the comments are pretending that they bought it for their

horses, saying, you know, this horse is very satisfied and cured of COVID. And lots of those commenters are in Canada, or in the UK or in other countries. It does seem much, it seems a bit harder for them to access it. But you know, it is clear that it made something that probably wouldn't maybe have sprung organically in Canada, for example, like an interest in taking ivermectin. It's probably being seen by a lot of people there. I did speak to one pharmacist who said, you know, people who are clearly influenced by US media and the way things work here, we're asking them for things in a way that would never work over there. You can just kind of tell the reach and the spread of this misinformation.

It's just so vast. Wow. You know, talking about what to do about it, health agencies have been trying a lot of tactics, including humor, to try to get people to stop using ivermectin. And the US FDA had this viral tweet that said, you are not a horse, you are not a cow. Seriously, y'all stop it. What do you make of that approach?

So it's interesting. I think that approach is only really effective with an audience that doesn't need to hear the message because it's easy to make fun of people and point and say, look at these crazy anti-vaxxers. They, you know, they're just taking horse dewormer. They're so gullible. But, you know, those people are looking at it and saying, we are taking, we're trying to get the human version. We're just being mocked. And, and I'm not sure that's the most effective way to go about it. You know, just kind of taking one aspect of it, which is that some people who are desperate are resorting to the horse version of this drug is not the most effective way to probably convince them otherwise or bring them to their side instead of kind of putting out information that might change their minds. information that might change their minds. People have thrown everything they've got at this. You know, in recent weeks, I've seen, for example, you know, the manufacturer of ivermectin,

the manufacturer of the drug itself, which, you know, would stand to benefit from selling more of it is coming out and saying, this isn't meant to be taken for COVID. You've got all these people kind of trying to convince them with science, You know, you've got the poison control centers coming out and saying they're seeing this massive uptick of people overdosing and that it's dangerous. But none of that quite really seems to resonate. Okay. Vera, thank you so much for this. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Of course. All right, so before we go today, on Tuesday, U.S. President Joe Biden called the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan after a 20-year war a, quote, extraordinary success. I was not going to extend this forever war. And I was not extending a forever exit. The U.S. airlifted 120,000 Americans, Afghans and other allies from the Kabul airport. But more than 100 Americans and thousands of

Afghans desperate to leave are currently stuck in the country with no clear way out. So are thousands of people with links to Canada. And Biden has received heavy criticism from those who say the speed of the U.S. departure led to much of the violence Afghanistan has seen over the past two months. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner. And a very special thanks to reporter Sarah Rieger, who spoke to the feed store owner and doctor in Alberta, you heard at the beginning of the show.