Front Burner - How AEW changed the wrestling landscape in 2021

Episode Date: December 30, 2021

We all know what pro wrestling is: scripted stories, exploding barbed wire death matches, and very real athleticism and danger. And for the last four decades, WWE has stayed in the cultural lexicon as the biggest name in the pro wrestling world. But now, a new contender is rising. All Elite Wrestling, founded in 2018 by 38-year-old Tony Khan, is gaining serious momentum — thanks to the help of the new generation of Canadian wrestlers like Winnipeg’s own Kenny Omega. Today on Front Burner, managing editor at Fightful.com Sean Ross Sapp on the legacy of WWE and the changing face of wrestling with the rise of its adversary, All Elite.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. If you know what kayfabe or a chute a heel turn are, or especially if you know what an exploding barbed wire deathmatch is, then there's a very good chance that this was actually the highlight of your year. Up to the top, Omega. Oh my God.

Oh my! Avalanche Dragon Suplex! And a near fall. The fans are cheering because they don't want this match to end. This is Bryan Danielson and Winnipeg's own Kenny Omega. Going at it in what I'm told is some of the best professional wrestling ever to hit the ring. No one in AEW has ever kicked out of the one-winged angel. Danielson!

Head first! Head first into the shallow end of the pool! We all know what pro wrestling is. Scripted stories. Very real athleticism and danger. But this matches a blow in a much bigger fight that's underway a fight for the future of wrestling in one corner of the reigning king 76 year old vince mcmahon the ceo of wwe the biggest game in wrestling for the past four decades You all bought it. You all bought it. Hook, line, and sinker. You all bought it.

In the other corner, 38-year-old challenger Tony Khan, who in 2019, along with his brother, founded his own wrestling company called All Elite Wrestling. This really hasn't been anything like what we're doing in terms of competing head-to-head with WWE, week-to-week. This year, AEW has gained serious, serious momentum, and matches like that one with Kenny Omega have made it a real challenger to the WWE. So today, on FrontBurner, we're talking to managing editor of Fightful.com, Sean Ross Sapp, about the long-lasting legacy of the WWE, the rise of their adversary, All Elite, and about the Canadians who have been instrumental to their success.

Hi, Sean. Thank you so much for making the time to chat with me today. Oh, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Our parent company is based in Canada, so it makes me very happy that this is happening. Wonderful. That's good. I'm very much looking forward to this conversation. I have to say I do not know a ton about wrestling, so my apologies if I say something stupid here, but I'm really looking forward to learning more. So my apologies if I say something stupid here, but I'm really looking forward to learning more. Although when I do think of wrestling, I do think of the WWE, right?

It's become synonymous with the sport, but now we've got this new player in the game, right? All elite. I don't want to compare us to any other wrestling company. I mean, we're AEW. We're doing something very different. They've gained so much momentum in just three years. And can you give me a bit of the backstory here? It really emerged off of almost a bet. There was another wrestling journalist, Dave Meltzer, who had said something like he didn't think that a non-WWE show could sell out 10,000 seats for an arena in the States.

And there was Cody Rhodes, who's the son of famous pro wrestler Dusty Rhodes, who said, I'll take that bet. And he and some of his friends, along with the help of Ring of Honor, which actually just announced they're going on hiatus, ended up running a 10,000 seat show and it sold out in minutes. The three of us and a cast of our banded friends disrupted the very way that professional wrestling functioned. We broke all of the rules. Ha! So off of the success of that show, Tony Khan, whose family owns the Jaguars and Fulham FC, they started it off in May of 2019.

We were eventually approached by the Khan family and they had a question for the three of us. The question was, do you guys really want to change the world? We said, yep. So a lot of this is credited to just a bet that happened to start on Twitter. That's amazing. And you mentioned it started in 2019. So this rise that they've had over the last just three years, it's really impressive considering that it's happened during a pandemic, right?

And so tell me, can you tell me a little bit more about their success over the last few years and how they've actually done that? Well, a lot of it is just good, consistent storytelling, good, consistent wrestling. Quite frankly, WWE is known for having outstanding performers, really high production values, a lot of money, the ability to do a lot of things they want. But they're not known for following through with storylines. a lot of things that they want, but they're not known for following through with storylines. They're not known for necessarily cultivating a creatively satisfying environment. And quite frankly, you don't get into wrestling unless you're a creator, unless you're an artist, because you're creating characters, creating looks, creating moves, creating matches. And

most of these people are creators. But in one company, WWE, generally that creating is left up to producers and writers and Vince McMahon himself. In AEW, it's a lot more free-flowing. This is a collection of the best performers in the world. Like when I said we have the best minds, we do. It's not completely free-flowing, but it's a lot more free-flowing. And I think that has been very transparent with a lot of the audience. WWE is still surpassing AEW by far with revenue and television ratings and the like, but there are some things like live crowds, ticket sales,

and the like in which AEW has seen a massive gain. Guys, it kind of feels like, it smells like, I don't know, it seems like this is a revolution. Yeah! You mentioned that how AEW differs or maybe appeals more to audiences is because the narratives, the storylines feel more real, less phony. is because the narratives, the storylines feel more real, less phony. But I still can't help but think that the WWE has managed to stay within this cultural lexicon for four decades, right? Millions of people still tune in every week. It generates close to a billion dollars in revenue every year. And do you think people also really like how outrageous it is?

Like the phoniness of it and the like insane storylines? Like, is that part of its sort of appeal as well? Oh, of course. Like I love MMA. I love the UFC. I love, I love that. But I also love a good like simulated fight. I watch a bunch of Jackie Chan movies, too. People loved Rush Hour. And quite frankly, that's not how most fights are going to play out. I wonder if you could give me an example or examples of a storyline in this new league, in the AEW. In AEW, there's been an interesting one that just paid off, and it took three years to pay it off. When they started, they hired a series of EVPs, executive vice presidents, and those were Cody, the Young Bucks, and Kenny Omega.

And those were four of the top performers in the world. But none of them came out and said, I want to be the first AEW champion. Because it's clear there'd be some nepotism at play there, right? Well, their best friend, Adam Hangman Page, did say that. I didn't get a title. There's a title party and I didn't get one. I didn't get the executive title. So maybe that's why I'm going for the AEW title.

Maybe that'll be my title. You'd be good at HR. I don't know. But everybody saw through it. They're like, well, it's not nepotism for them, but we see you're their friend. We know that you're going to be their first champion. We see the nepotism there. And a lot of fans rejected that guy.

Well, he didn't become the first champion and he recognized that nepotism and he tried his best to separate himself from all these people that had been his friends, all these people that had helped him out over the years, all these people that had helped get him to the point he was at, and he was kind of a bad friend about it. He was down on himself. It's my fault that I've lost two of my best friends. I feel like from head to toe, I'm just full of poison. Well, eventually he had this great tag team run with one of those guys.

They won the tag team titles. They had a great run. But when they lost them, that partner of his, who was Kenny Omega, a Canadian at that, was like, ah, we're done with the team. I'm going to go back to becoming the best wrestler in the world. And he was for about a year and a half. When he and Paige were finally dethroned, that gave Kenny the perfect excuse to say, hey, I don't need anybody else.

This is my time. I can do it myself. But he became an absolute jerk in doing so. Like, he was terrible. He was horrible. He wasn't this nice guy. Look at me in my eyes when I say this to you. Cowboy or not, the elite does not have losers in our group.

Eventually, Hangman Page and Kenny Omega's paths crossed, and Page had doubted himself for the last couple of years and ultimately won that championship a couple of weeks ago. When AEW started, I told all of you I'd be the first champion. I lied to myself then, too. So, if you'll humor me, I'll go for one last lie. I will hold this for the rest of my life. Oh, my God.

And this pulled out over three years? Three years. A three-year story, which was actually extended. It was supposed to pay off earlier this summer, but Hangman Page went away because he had the birth of his child. Oh my God.

There's so many layers to this narrative. I know. And that was the honest-to-God truth. He took time off for that. And I don't know how layers to this narrative. I know, and that was the honest to God truth. He took time off for that. And I don't know how to say this without being vulgar, but one of his hangman pages catchphrases is, cowboy expletive. And the crowd will chant that at them.

I'm gonna do some real cowboy shit. And he says the most cowboy thing he could do was pass up the biggest opportunity of his life to go become a father. Oh, my God, Sean. This is wild. Doesn't that make him even more lovable? It does. It does.

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I do want to talk about some of the controversy that WWE has encountered and then ask you if you think AEW is handling these issues any differently. But I know there has been a lot of controversy with the WWE. Many of its wrestlers have died young. It's hard to even talk about the tragedy of Canadian Chris Benoit, who died by suicide after killing his wife and son. Decades ago, several wrestlers appeared in blackface, including Saskatoon's Rowdy Roddy Piper. And I think I probably shouldn't even get started on the demeaning ways that they've presented great women athletes. And so how are these awful legacies still impacting WWE today?

So I'll try to address these one by one. The Roddy Piper thing I don't hear mentioned anymore. WWE effectively erased that from their history. I think they knew that was a bad idea. And WWE did do a skit in 98 that had blackface, and I don't think they've ever done it again. As far as the portrayal and treatment of women, there's no way to undo what they did, but they did make a conscious effort in 2015-2016 to put together what was called the Women's Revolution, where women are presented more seriously. They're presented as athletes. Are they still portrayed on the same level? Not quite, but you have talent have completely changed the game. Three women who have revolutionized NXT. Are they still portrayed on the same level? Not quite, but you have talent like Becky Lynch and Charlotte,

Bianca Belair, Sasha Banks, Bayley, that have really, really pushed forward women's wrestling. But AEW has had some of those similar criticisms, not about the sexualization of women, but the time given to women. AEW needs and could do a lot better about providing more time to women, especially considering one of their biggest stars, Dr. Britt Baker, DMD, is a woman and has an incredible following. So AEW could absolutely do better than that. I think that by the time AEW was around, nobody in that company was going to do blackface at all whatsoever. And what about all these wrestlers who have died young?

There's much talk of concussions syndrome and other sort of brutal damage. So in 2007, when the Chris benoit tragedy happened i mean that that hit wrestling hard well the wrestling world in shock today former champion chris benoit found dead in his atlanta home along with his wife and young son police now treating the discovery as a double murder suicide it did irreparable harm because um i mean, my gosh, that was just such an incredible, horrible tragedy that happened. And a lot of people, like a lot of the news media at the time were like, steroids, steroids, steroids, instead of this guy had CTE and dementia. And now, of course, we know so much more about that that it's like, well, steroids didn't make him do that. Obviously, CTE and make him do that. Obviously CTE and dementia, uh, contributed to that. Uh, WWE has banned, uh, chair shots to the head. They,

they take a lot more precautions about that. They do a pretty, uh, consistent concussion testing. And since they implemented their wellness policy about a year and a half prior to that, the, the number of deaths has significantly decreased. I think there's a lot of contributing factors to that. There are a lot less wrestlers that rely on chemical dependencies today than there used to be as well. I think that was a big issue. I think that the steroid culture was a big issue, and that has significantly decreased. You see wrestlers that look more like UFC fighters, look more like lean athletes than you do bodybuilders these days. I think that has helped a lot.

And I think there are ways that AEW and WWE could do better. But the numbers sort of speak for themselves. And we're not seeing nearly as many wrestlers die young now as we were 15, 16 years ago and the decades prior. I know we're seeing sort of this exodus of talent from the WWE to All Elite. And, you know, I wonder if you could talk to me a little bit about why you think that's uh happening is it because these wrestlers feel like they have more control over or over you know their narratives or they feel like this is like a new hipper space for them to be both the the crowd in aew is much more lively and that is a result of the audience they've cultivated by the

creativity that they've allowed. WWE doesn't own pro wrestling. It doesn't. Nobody can ever own pro wrestling. And to give a show back to the wrestlers is giving the show back to the fans, too. WWE can by far offer people more money than anybody else, but AEW can offer these creators more of an opportunity to create than WWE can, at least as they view it. And we have had Adam Cole and Brian Danielson, two people who said that they loved their time in WWE.

They really enjoyed it there. But once they saw the AEW crowd, they knew they had to be a part of it. I think that has been such a significant recruiting tool is just the audience, the vocal, loud, passionate audience in which AEW has created and the satisfying storylines. When you create good art, good artists want to come paint their pictures there. Okay. Okay. And I just, I got to kind of wedge in the Canadian angle into this conversation. So, I mean, I know there's a bunch of Canadians in the AEW and like a pretty big Canadian connection to wrestling. Even non-wrestling fans may have heard of Bret Hart or Roddy Piper. The bad pipe entourage of one rowdy Roddy Piper.

You may not like him, but you still got to respect him. He's a dangerous man. So like, what do you think it is about Canada that's producing this talent? We just talked about Kenny Omega from Winnipeg as well. Oh, well, I mean, it's a huge country, first off. But I mean, like you look up and down the roster, Chris Jericho, Christian Cage, Ethan Page, members of the Dark Order, they're all over the place. And Canada had a really good foundation with Stampede Wrestling in the decades prior. And when you've got a role model like Bret Hart, it's hard to not be motivated by him.

The way that he conducted himself in and out of the ring a lot of times motivated a lot of people. And now there are so many influences and it's easier to be influenced than ever because it's easier to find this content than ever. I think that helps cultivate it as well. It's always hard to speak individually to what motivates a person to become a performer, let alone one in professional wrestling where there's going to be a lot of downs before there are any ups. But there's such an incredible foundation and has been for decades. And Canada was at just the center of the wrestling explosion in 1997. One of the hottest storylines was Canada versus the USA. They started a rivalry lines was Canada versus the USA. They started a rivalry between like border towns on a fake wrestling show. And it was one of the hottest things ever. And depending on where bret hart would be he would get cheered or booed

if he was in canada he might as well have been superman if he was in the u.s he was lex luther it just all depended on where he was and that plays off the most elementary sports thing when you're at home you get cheered when you're not get booed. And he had an entire country behind him. And I think that stuck with so many people. And it was cool to a lot of people. Since Kenny Omega seems to be kind of the Canadian of the moment, I just wonder if you could describe him for people who might not know of him. So I've interviewed him, I think, once or twice. He is an introverted fella in my personal experience, but such a fascinating, interesting one. What's up,

you guys? Sean Ross Sapp here with a name you know. We got Kenny Omega. Kenny, how you doing? I'm doing well. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for the introduction. There's not a lot known about his private life. He keeps that very close to the vest, unless he wants it out there, as seen in a documentary a couple of years ago. If Elvis was a wrestler and living in 2018, he might be killing me. I want to make professional wrestling about unity and equality. He's widely considered by many as one of the greatest wrestling performers in the ring. In our generation, I always compared him to if there was a Canadian anime character that was brought to life, that's Kenny Omega.

That's the best way I can explain him. That's such a good explanation of a person. Kenny Omega spiked Jon Moxley right between the eyes. Oh, Moxley's bleeding. That's such a good explanation of a person. I don't even know what to say to that. Has Omega been really instrumental in AEW's success? Oh, big time, especially that three-year payoff of Hangman Page that I mentioned earlier. Without Kenny Omega, that story doesn't happen because Hangman Page had to overcome the greatest wrestler in the world who just happened to be his tag team partner before that, who just happened to be one of his best friends that he was trying to separate himself from before that. And when you land one of the greatest wrestling performers in the world,

that has a major effect on a wrestling company. Everybody wanted him. He worked for Ring of Honor and New Japan. WWE made him an offer. I personally spoke to him about that. He said that WWE made him a very good offer before AEW. He was the bell of the ball. And really, a lot of the instrumental anchoring points of AEW were before AEW came around. Taking into consideration all that we've talked about today, Sean, do you think that think that this new league AEW poses a real threat to WWE's relevance and maybe even its existence now? I don't think it threatens WWE's existence. I think the only thing that can threaten WWE's existence is themselves. And I think they can be as successful as the effort they put in. If WWE suddenly comes along and starts to create mega creatively satisfying storylines

and interesting payoffs and cohesive stories, I think that they'll continue to rise or they'll rise back to great levels as well. I think that WWE has all the tools to do that. It's just they don't seem to always have the effort. WDB has all the tools to do that. It's just they don't seem to always have the effort. And that boils down to one or two people at the very top that like things the way they are or like things the way they want. AEW is, while there is one person at the top that makes all the final yes and no's and has the say there, there's a lot more contribution there from the creators themselves and i think that threatens the success of wdb more than anything because these people generally want to create their

stories as a fan uh before we go sean what are you most looking forward to in this next phase of wrestling well the next phase of wrestling it's i mean we're heading towards January. That's Royal Rumble season for WWE. That's a big 30-person match where people fly over the top rope. I've got ADHD. I battle it. When a new person comes out every 60 to 90 seconds, that sort of massages that type of attention span that I have. With AEW, they've got a series of big shows coming up, and they do a good job of putting on a really, really big match every three or four weeks, so there's always something to watch there. I'm more interested to see where the chips fall now that the wrestling landscape has changed. We've got a company named ROH that has been around for 20 years that just all of a sudden isn't around right now. They're taking a hiatus and I don't know how that's going

to affect the landscape of wrestling. I'm excited to see how that affects things as well. All right, Sean, this was an incredibly enjoyable time for me. Thank you very, very much for coming on to the podcast. Well, thank you for having me. Thank you very, very much for coming on to the podcast. Well, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. All right, so that is all for today. If you are a fan of this show, please consider leaving a rating or a review on your podcast app of choice. It really helps new listeners to find us. We can also be found on Twitter at FrontBurnerCBC. I'm Jamie Poisson, and thanks so much for listening. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.