Front Burner - How pride nights became an NHL culture crisis

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

Pride Nights began in the NHL about ten years ago. They're meant to send a clear message to LGBTQ+ fans to feel welcome spending money and time watching hockey. But since January, a growing number of teams and players are refusing to wear the rainbow-themed jerseys teams use for warm up skates and then auction off to charity. Some players say wearing the jersey is against their faith. Some teams have said they're concerned Russia would see participation as a violation of Putin's anti-gay laws and that would put their Russian players at risk. Now, league commissioner Gary Bettman says the league will need to decide whether Pride Nights should continue. Mark Lazerus writes about hockey for The Athletic. He says the NHL is failing to show leadership in this latest crisis of culture. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. It's Pride Night here at the Wells Fargo Centre. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. Proud to welcome and stand with members of our LGBTQ plus community. For a decade now, NHL teams have held Pride Nights.

Pride Night is not just a promotional evening for the Colorado Avalanche. It's a moment to show solidarity with a marginalized community. This is about recognizing someone's humanity and true identity. We know there are people out there struggling with who they are and we want them to know that they have an ally in the Buffalo Sabres. I'm Brian Campbell. I will always stand up for my teammates no matter who they are and I will support any teammate that helps me win games. The focus is supposed to be on the team's support for the local LGBTQ plus community to send a message that all are welcome

to come spend their time and money watching hockey. But this year, the focus has shifted away from queer fans and towards a few players and teams who've decided not to wear the rainbow-themed jerseys. The talk around the NHL has been controversy and it has been backlash. The decision made by certain teams and individuals has fans questioning the NHL slogan hockey is for everyone. I respect everybody and I respect everybody's choices. We're going to talk

actually about homophobia in the NHL because I thought things were getting better and we're going backwards. Today, how is the NHL handling the growing things were getting better and we're going backwards. Today, how is the NHL handling the growing controversy? What does it say about homophobia in the league? And at a time when hockey culture is really under the microscope, how does this latest controversy fit into the larger cultural crisis the sport has been facing in recent years? Mark Lazarus is a writer covering hockey for The Athletic. Mark, thank you so much for coming on to FrontBurner. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

So I'd like to start today by just laying out generally what has happened in recent months. This all started in January. I believe the Philadelphia Flyers were hosting their Pride Night. Different teams do it on different days. And for the pregame skate, the players wore jerseys with a rainbow theme and taped their sticks with rainbow colors. But one of the Flyers' best defensemen, Ivan Provorov, did not participate in the pregame skate. And why not? Well, he cited his Russian Orthodox religious beliefs. I respect everybody. I respect everybody's choices. My choice is to stay true to myself

and my religion. That's all I'm going to say. How do you religious beliefs? Any, like I said, that's all I'm going to comment on that. If you have any hockey questions, I would like, I would answer those. You know, the current debate is centering on this kind of draconian Russian law that Vladimir Putin signed into law back in December that basically criminalizes what he calls LGBTQ plus propaganda. Lawmakers voted unanimously to give the bill final approval, framing it as defending Russia's traditional

values in a war against the West. Under Russia's new law, anyone deemed to be promoting same-sex relationships through speech or images can be fined thousands of dollars. Foreigners could end up in prison. And that's, that's some of these, you know, you've had Provorov sit for religious reasons. James Reimer of the Sharks cited his Christian beliefs. Eric and Mark Stahl of the Florida Panthers cited their Christian beliefs. And then you have teams like the Minnesota Wild, the New York Rangers, the Chicago Blackhawks that have opted out entirely as a team citing the Russian, you know, fears about the Russian law. Ilya Labushkin of the Buffalo Sabres sat out just this week and openly said, look, it's because of the law. And so you have lots of reasons why it's happening.

Provorov really opened the door because this has been happening. You know, Pride nights have been happening in NHL for years. And a lot of these guys have worn the jerseys in the past. But Provorov deciding not to has really opened the door for a lot of other people for a lot of various reasons not to wear the Pride jerseys. Yeah, and maybe let's pull apart some of those reasons, but let's focus on the Russian players first. Is there a legitimate concern for safety of Russian players if they wear a pride-themed jersey on one of these nights, you think?

I mean, it's easy for me to sit here and say that, you know, well, if you read the letter of the Russian law, it's just a fine. And, you know, I've talked to geopolit you read the letter of the Russian law, it's just a fine. And, you know, I've talked to geopolitical experts who have said that the law doesn't apply to Russian nationals in other countries. So in the NHL has said that based on what they're, what they've,

they've seen and what they've talked about, there's no material risk to these players involved. It's easy to sit here and say that. Now, if you're a Russian player and you know what Vladimir Putin is capable of, you might think otherwise and you might be concerned. And there's certainly a legitimate concern there. Where it becomes a problem is when it becomes a reason for the entire team not to wear the jerseys. Then all of a sudden, well, who else are you protecting? You're not just protecting the one or two Russian guys on your

team. You might be protecting some flat out homophobes on your team that this gives them cover. Or you might be protecting guys who otherwise would have to say, you know, my religious beliefs or whatever the reason is. The Russian law has become for a few teams, particularly the Wild Rangers and Blackhawks, kind of this cover-all excuse not to participate in the event. Right. Because, you know, I was thinking about this, you know, speculation is that they wanted to protect the Russian players. But like, what does it matter if the Russian players are singled out and they don't participate in these events? Why would that be helping them in any way?

Well, that's just it. Ilya Labushkin of the Sabres flat out said, I am not wearing this because I don't want to get in trouble with the Russian government. Yeah, he's already singled out. Right, exactly. And it's interesting because the Blackhawks, their Pride night was just this past Sunday. And they did all the bells and whistles and they had all these events and everything like that. But the most visible part of this is the jerseys, is the Pride tape. And they didn't do any of that. They were wearing their regular red jerseys and no Pride tape was provided for the team.

Even though there are a lot of guys in that room, Connor Murphy among them, an alternate captain, who is already active in trying to make hockey more appealing to the queer community, make it more welcoming and inclusive. It matters a lot to these guys and they weren't even given the option. The team told them they couldn't wear the pride jerseys. And the Blackhawks reasoning was really twisted. They said, a couple couple people I talked to with the team said that when I asked them, well why can't you just have the Russian player, why can't Nikita Zaitsev just sit out the game or sit out that warm up

or just not wear the jersey and everybody else can and they said, well if you single him out then he has to explain why and if he explains why and he says it's because of the Russian law, then it implies that the only reason he's not wearing the jersey is because of the Russian law and that he actually wanted to of the Russian law, then it implies that the only reason he's not wearing the jersey is because of the Russian law, and that he actually wanted to wear the Russian jersey,

and that qualifies as propaganda. And it's this really twisted logic that the NHL and some of these teams are twisting themselves into, and it really feels like a reach, and you can't help but wonder that there's something else at play here, that maybe they're protecting other guys other than just the Russians. Well, you mentioned before that other players have followed suit here and they've stated different reasons. And for people who haven't been following this super closely, tell me a bit more about goalie James Reimer from the San Jose Sharks and the Stahl brothers who play in Florida for the Panthers.

Yeah, James Reimer, he's the backup goalie for the Sharks. He made a statement ahead of the game saying, I'm not going to wear the jersey because in this specific instance, I'm personally choosing not to endorse something, you know, a sexual identity or orientation that is counter to my convictions, which are based in the Bible, which I consider the highest authority in my life. He's like, while I respect and value everyone, you know, this goes against my religious, my Christian beliefs. I strongly believe that every person has value and worth in people in this community. And the LGBTQIA plus community, like all others, should in people in this community. And the LGBTQIA plus community, like all others, should be welcome in all aspects of the game of hockey.

Which, you know, you can decide for yourself whether that means you really value and respect these people. And that's a big deal. This is in the Bay Area. This is, you know, the most queer-friendly community in North America, probably, is San Francisco Bay Area. And so he took some heat for that, and the rest of the Sharks wore the jerseys. And then just a couple days later, Eric and Mark Stahl of the Florida Panthers cited their Christian beliefs as a reason not to wear it. And Eric Stahl said, I've never worn them before. And then someone said, I have video proof.

Is there something that had changed from when you wore the jersey, the Pride jersey, with the Canadians? I haven't before. I never have before. There's photographic evidence of you wearing a pride jersey in Montreal. He's like, that's not true. It was like we're living in the post-fact era. And it's baffling that these guys were able to wear the jersey in the past, but all of a sudden now they can't.

it's baffling that these guys were able to wear the jersey in the past, but all of a sudden now they can't. And it's because when Ivan Provorov decided not to, it opened the door to this discussion because these guys have all worn it. The Russians have worn it in the past. These religious players have worn it in the past. It's never been an issue before. But now that one guy decided, you know what, I'm not going to wear these, we're having a much larger debate.

one guy decided, you know what, I'm not going to wear these, we're having a much larger debate. Tell me a bit more about the response from the NHL here at the team level, but also from like the commissioner, Gary Bettman. There is absolutely no guidance at all from the NHL. There's no, these aren't mandatory. These are team events. Every single team in the league this year has a pride night. It's a relatively new phenomenon for a lot of these teams. And there's been zero guidance from the league this year has a pride night. It's a relatively new phenomenon for a lot of these teams and there's been zero guidance from the league. Like when the Blackhawks, you know, let it be known that they weren't going to wear the jerseys. My colleague, Scott Powers, contacted Bill Daly, the deputy commissioner, and he sent him a statement basically throwing the Blackhawks under the bus saying, you know, as far as we know, there's no material risk here. So the league wants

them to wear the jersey. The Hockey Is For Everyone campaign, which has been around for a number of years now, it's important to the league. It really is. I believe that it is. But the league has made absolutely no effort to regulate this. I asked Gary Bettman at the All-Star game, this was in the wake of the Ivan Provorov one in Philadelphia, what the league feels. And the league's like, well, we have to respect their private choice. And some people are more comfortable embracing themselves and causes than others. And part of being diverse and welcoming is understanding those differences. Kevin McGrann of the Toronto Star followed up by saying, do you have to respect their choice if their choice is bigoted? And, you know, Gary Bettman basically, you know, kind of soft shoot his way through an answer that didn't really say anything.

Whether or not you choose to embrace and make a statement on behalf of a cause affirmatively, if you choose not to do that, it doesn't necessarily make you a bigot. I'm sure you don't endorse every single charity that solicits you and you don't participate in every social cause. You pick and choose the ones that are important to you. Participate in every social cause. You pick and choose the ones that are important to you. The ones you don't choose to do don't necessarily make you bigoted, misogynistic, you know, the appearance of that. You know, this is a league that completely caved to Florida Governor Ron DeSantis when they were going to have a diversity and inclusion job fair accompany the All-Star game down in South Florida. Ron DeSantis threw a fit. The governor expressed his outrage through his spokesman saying this, discrimination of any sort is not welcome in the state of Florida, and we do not abide by the woke notion that discrimination should be overlooked if applied in a politically popular manner or against a politically unpopular demographic. It got on Fox News, and the NHL immediately caved and completely canceled the job fair.

The NHL has since eliminated any reference to ethnic, gender, sexual orientation, and military veteran status. A spokesperson tells Fox the original wording was incorrect and that anyone 18 or older can attend. So this is not a league with a big backbone when it comes to these inclusive issues. Hockey has a very strong conservative streak running through it. I think we all know that. The league does.

The sport does. It's an affluent white sport more than any other sport is. And I think the league is very, very conscious of not offending anybody here. And of course, by doing that, they wind up offending everybody. Right. And I want to get into that a little bit more with you in a bit, because I know that is a wider criticism, as you said, of the league. But just the Florida Panthers, the San Jose Sharks, you know, how have they responded to James Reimer and the Stahl brothers citing like Christian beliefs here? Have they done anything? Have they said anything? Well, you can't, I mean, you can't punish a guy for that, right? I mean, that would be, you know, a much bigger can of worms to open. So the, you know, the players, their teammates say,

Hey, we respect their decision. They're allowed to do that, but we wanted to wear the jerseys. I would have liked to have seen the Blackhawks do that. The wild, the Rangers, these guys wanted to wear the jerseys. They should be allowed to wear the jerseys. If we're talking about personal choice, right? If your personal choice is I want to wear the jerseys. They should be allowed to wear the jerseys. If we're talking about personal choice, right? If your personal choice is I want to wear it, you should be allowed to wear it. And so I have a bigger problem with these organizational decisions. The Blackhawks didn't consult the players. They didn't even consult the three Russians on the team.

They just made an organizational choice with their security team that they weren't going to wear the jerseys. And they completely took it out of the players' hands. The way the Flyers did it, the way the Shark, the Flyers and the Sharks, the Flyers in particular, this all started in Philadelphia. The Flyers are leaders in this space. You know, Captain Scott Lawton is very active and vocal about queer inclusion and hockey. The Flyers have always been out in front of this. So I was really glad to see that, you know, and the Sharks did the same thing where, all right, this guy doesn't want to wear it. That's fine. He doesn't have to, but we're still going to do it.

It gets more kind of, for lack of a better word, cowardly aspect of this is when the team shut it down completely like the Wild Rangers and Blackhawks did. This idea that individual choice has to be respected, like putting aside safety issues and how valid that is for a moment for the few Russian players, can you talk to me a little bit more about why people think that these players' individual choices should be respected? They get paid a lot of money to play a game for fans, and shouldn't they be required by their employers to be more welcoming to potential fans from different communities to try to attract more fans. And shouldn't the league just make them do that? Well, and these are charity initiatives.

These jerseys are auctioned off for charity reasons. So by not participating, you are actively taking money out of the charity fund that the league is trying to do here and that the teams are trying to do. So yeah, I mean, I would like to see the leagues kind of have the league is trying to do here and that the teams are trying to do. So, yeah, I mean, it's, I would like to see the leagues kind of have the league and the teams have more of a backbone here and say, hey, you're a member of our organization. This is something that's important to us as an organization. I would like to see you wear the jersey. I understand the, again, the can of worms that that opens, especially when you're talking

about religious exemptions. That's a big deal in the States these days is you know i shouldn't have to give you birth control because it goes against my beliefs i mean this this country is taking a a hard right turn in recent years uh and for someone like me it's obviously it's distressing to see but that's where we're headed so these teams are very conscious of that fact well do you think the league has its heart in the right place? Because as you said, one of the main criticisms here is that the NHL tries to please everyone. They back down from that work fair. And, you know, I know that, for example, while the NBA came out clearly speaking in support of Black Lives Matter protests, I think the NHL released a slogan that was like,

hockey is for everyone, really kind of catch all. And then, you know, they have these pride events, but also Bettman is now, is out there talking about the importance of individual choice. So, you know, is their heart just trying to kind of get themselves out of a PR disaster? Would that be the more cynical way of looking at it? Their heart is where the money is. And the money is its inclusion. The more fans you have, the better. So I do believe that they want

these initiatives to succeed. They want to expand into the queer community. They want to expand into more urban communities. They don't want to be this monolithic league that they so clearly are. But their backbone does not match their heart. They don't have the courage. They don't have the

spine to really fight for these issues. Like they want them, but it doesn't mean enough to them that they're going to ruffle any feathers. And that's what you watch the WNBA, the NBA. And, you know, they're like they're taking stands and they're putting it in your face. This is what matters to us. And if you don't like it, that's too bad because it matters to our players. And so the players are going to have to take a matter, you know, and if you don't like it, that's too bad because it matters to our players. And so the players are going to have to take a lot of, you know, be louder voices. And the league is going to have to grow some spine here for this really to mean more than just token gestures to a marginalized community, which for now, that's really all it is.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you.

Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I know you said earlier that you think this is a minority of players,

but how big a problem do you think homophobia is in the NHL? It's certainly there. I mean, we've had a number of instances over the years where players have been suspended for being caught on video. It was Andrew Shaw of the Blackhawks called a referee the F word, not that F word. I want to apologize to the gay and lesbian community. It's time that everyone's been treated equally, and it's a hurtful word, I want to apologize to the gay and lesbian community. It's time that everyone's been treated equally and it's a it's a hurtful word I know that. I'm sorry and I want to apologize.

And I think it was Ryan Getzlaff of the Anaheim Ducks used a term that he didn't even think was homophobic but it but very clearly is when you think of the definition of it. Getzlaff apologized but seemed to downplay the incident. Fortunately enough, nobody heard it. If you can read lips, it's a little bit harder and I apologize for that. The league fined him $10,000 but did not suspend him. And so there's certainly an issue. I wrote a story last year about homophobic language in the NHL, which used to be incredibly common, just like it was in normal society, I think, if you go back to like the 70s and 80s, obviously, and how you eradicate it. And it's so much better now than it used to be.

It really is. But it's subtle things now, right? It's kind of like there's all these ways that this kind of subtle homophobia creeps into the room from guys who, you know, hockey is such an insular sport that, you know, from like the time you're seven years old, you basically share a locker room with the same 19 guys all the way up through, you know, your youth. And then you get into the NHL and, you know, you've never met anyone outside that room. You don't know the world at large. These guys don't even go to high school, some of them. They don't go to college, a lot of them, and they don't really meet anybody.

So like if you're a 22 year old NHL player and you've never met a gay person in your life, you're probably going to have some skewed views about them. And the way that you get past that is by humanizing someone like Brock McGillis, who is working with a lot of these teams. And he always talks about humanizing, uh, queer people to these players because so many of them just don't know any of them because they live in this insular world. And it's a catch-22, right? The only way these guys are going to learn to accept gay players is by having gay players in the locker room. But what gay player in his right mind would come out in this current NHL knowing so many people in those rooms hate you?

Am I right to say that there's never actually been an out gay player in the NHL? Like, I know Luke Prokop, right, is a prospect currently playing for the Miners under the contract with the Nashville Predators, right? But never in the actual NHL has there been a gay player. Nope, not an open... Oh, open. There have certainly been a lot of

gay players in the NHL, just statistically speaking, over the years. But yeah, there's never been an openly gay player. Luke Prokop is is the most prominent now as a under contract prospect, but he's not like some can't miss prospect, right? He's not like the next Conor McDavid. There's no guarantee he's ever going to make it to the NHL. And it needs to be more than one guy too, right? It needs to be common. It needs to be just like it is for those of us in regular average society who just know lots of gay people because we're just in the world. Hockey players don't live in the real world. They live in this weird little bubble where it's very easy to foster stereotypes because nobody ever challenges them. So it's going to take a lot. And I'm not sure

we're ever going to get there anytime soon because, like I said, if you're a closeted gay player right now, man, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to come out in this NHL, much as I would like to see it. I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking I'm not going to be considered welcome here. You know, I keep thinking about some recent comments that Brian Burke made listening to you talk today. So Brian Burke is currently with the Pittsburgh Penguins. He has been seen for many years as a champion of LGBTQ rights in hockey. His son, who tragically died in a car accident, was gay. But commenting on this, you know, Burke said what he thinks the jerseys mean is basically he said he wished players would understand that the pride sweaters are about inclusion and welcoming everyone.

A player wearing pride colors or tape isn't endorsing a set of values or enlisting in a cause. He's saying you're welcome here and you are in every NHL building. you are in every NHL building. I know that he's seen as an ally to the community and trying to champion these causes, but that comment also seems quite tepid to me. In a way, it's saying, have whatever values you want, just know that this is good for our bottom line here. Like it's like a strictly kind of marketing thing. It's the argument of tolerance versus acceptance, right? Like I don't want you to tolerate me for like I'm Jewish. I don't want you to tolerate me for being Jewish. I want you to accept.

I want you to embrace. And that's all gay people ask. And it's not really a very big ask. I mean the fact that I'm sitting here saying, oh, we need a whole bunch of gay players in the NHL to win hearts and minds, we shouldn't, right? You shouldn't take that. You shouldn't have to have a black friend to think black people are okay, right? I mean, it's all the cliches that we talk about when we're talking about why diversity and inclusion is important. It's acceptance.

It's an embrace. It's not a tolerance. And you're right. And I'm sure that Berkey chose his words carefully because he knows his audience. It's not just this, right? This is a sport facing a series of crises in recent years in Canada, two sets of allegations, one about two separate Canadian World Juniors teams, one in 2003, one in 2018, participating in group sexual assaults against women. Another from junior players themselves alleging that they were forced to participate in so-called hazing rituals that involved group masturbation and forced penetration with objects. And so where do you see this latest controversy about pride events fitting into the larger crisis hockey has been facing in recent years? Well, it's all part of it, right? It's all about, I mean, we talk about hockey culture, how this toxic hockey culture that we have,

that stems from the insular nature of it, where these guys, again, aren't exposed to the larger world. They're put on a pedestal at a very early age. They are kept in their little bubble and they think they're above the law and that whatever they believe is right. And hopefully we can fix this toxic hockey culture, but I feel like hockey is always going to be behind the times because again, it's not a diverse sport. It's not an inclusive sport. It's a very, you know, elite sport in terms of you have to have a lot of money to get good at it. You have to have a lot of money to even play it. So it feels like it's going to lag behind the times than maybe the rest of the world is. And so hockey is always going to be 10, 15 years behind, say, the NBA, the WNBA.

And, you know, these hazing rituals and all these sexual assaults, the Blackhawks. I spent two years covering the Kyle Beach story where they basically covered up a sexual assault of a player because it was more important to them that they have a chance at the Stanley Cup. That's hockey culture, right? It's never about the individual. It's about the team. You never come forward and say anything is happening to you because you don't want the spotlight. That's another reason that it's going to be even harder for a player to come out because it's not about you in the NHL. That's a virtue to them, this team first mentality, when a lot of times it's what's holding the sport back. And now it's getting better.

And this current, like the guys who are in their early 20s now have more personality in a lot of ways. They're more willing to be themselves and they see the value in marketing themselves. So maybe we'll kind of get away from that, like team over everything, where maybe someone would stand up and say, no, this is wrong. I hope we're getting that direction. But it might take another generation or two

to really get there, because hockey is just, it's coming along, but it's kicking its feet and dragging its feet and just screaming all the way. Just lastly, on your point that maybe the NHL is lagging behind some of these other leagues and that it will take time, I suppose my question is how much time does it have,

right? Because if parents don't like what they read about life inside locker rooms, then they won't enroll their kids, right? And if fans don't like it, they won't buy tickets. And is this like an existential concern for the NHL? I hope it is. I hope they look at it that way. I mean, I've been trying, I've been struggling really hard, but I've been trying to look on the bright side of some of these things. Look at like the fact that the Dallas Stars, deep in the heart of Texas, every single player they had participated in Pride Night wore the jerseys. It was warmly embraced. Yes, the Stahls did not wear their

jerseys, but in Ron DeSantis' Florida, the Florida Panthers were very, you know, had all their players other than the Stahls wore the jerseys and they had a big flashy Pride night right in Ron DeSantis' backyard. A night like tonight, for me, really is just all about including everybody. In my opinion, it's by far the greatest game in the world and everybody's welcome in my locker room. I try to take solace in the fact that these events even happen, that the league is moving forward slowly as it is, like these things never would have happened 15 years ago, right? I remember when Brent Sopel

of the Blackhawks took the Stanley Cup to the Pride Parade in Chicago in 2010. It was the first time the Stanley Cup went to the Pride Parade. It was a big, big deal. Like we couldn't believe, like we were, a lot of us were really excited to see it, really glad to see it. Now the Cup's at the Pride Parade every year, right? It's normal. It does get better. We do make progress. It just is frustrating as hell how slowly the NHL gets there. It just seems like it's so much harder in hockey to do what the rest of civilized society is doing on its own. But like you said, you look all around America right now and they're trying to legislate LGBTQ people out of existence. So we still

clearly have a long way to go and sports can lead the way the NBA and the WNBA in particular in this, in the summer of 2020, in the wake of the George Floyd murder, they led the way. And that's how you can eventually change hearts and minds is by having your most famous people, the people that kids look up to kids, worship, having them speak out And speaking out is not something you do in hockey, but we need more of it. And I'm hoping that we're heading in that direction. Mark, thank you so much for this. Thank you. Thanks for having me. One other thing tied to this story about culture within the game's highest levels.

A parliamentary committee is looking into an alleged 2018 group sexual assault against a woman by hockey players, including members of that year's World Junior team. The one we mentioned earlier. This week, the committee unanimously passed a motion ordering Hockey Canada to hand over a report from an investigation into the allegations. Hockey Canada says players from the 2018 team in question will not be considered for international competition until an investigation into the incident has been completed. All right, that is all for today. FrontBurner was produced this week by Lauren Donnelly, Rafferty Baker, Derek Vanderwyk, Matt Alma, Jodi Martinson, Abby Hughes, and Imogen Burchard. Our sound design was by Sam McNulty and Julia Whitman. Our intern is Abby Hughes. Abby, you have been so great, and we can't wait to see what you do next.

Thank you so much for spending your time with us. Our music is by Joseph Chabisset. Our executive producer is Nick McCabe-Locos. And I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner. Make sure you listen tomorrow to the second episode of our spinoff miniseries, The Naked Emperor. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.