Front Burner - How Succession keeps winning

Episode Date: December 15, 2021

HBO’s Succession came out of the gate quietly back in 2018. And even as critics raved over its stylish production, intricate plotting and viciously sharp humour, it took a while to catch on. Now, it’s easily one of the most influential and discussed TV shows in a long time. Structured like a chamber drama set in the corridors of elite power and influence, it revolves around the highly successful but highly dysfunctional Roy clan and their sprawling right wing media empire. The central conflict is between the brilliant and ruthless patriarch Logan Roy and his ambitious but flawed children, each vying for his love and attention while at the same time plotting to dethrone him. This week, its third season came to a dramatic end so today on Front Burner we talk to writer and showrunner of CBC’s Pop Chat podcast, Amil Niazi and Vulture’s Jackson McHenry on what makes Succession so compelling, and how it’s become a cultural institution. Warning: this episode contains major spoilers.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Plisson. So I don't know about you guys, but it has been a long time since I've enjoyed a show as much as Succession. I can't even remember the last time I would actually plan my night around watching a show when it actually aired. I mean, who does that anymore?

But when I have time to kill, I find myself reading reviews, think pieces, New Yorker profiles, trolling succession Twitter. And I know I'm not alone. I think it's fair to say that it has really punched through in a big, big way. Okay, the entertainment has arrived. This is like the first stages of an orgy. It's kind of exciting, but also super awkward. Critics have raved over its really stylish production, amazing writing, viciously sharp humor, great acting.

Structured like a chamber drama set in the corridors of elite power and influence, it's, as you probably know, centered around the highly successful but highly dysfunctional Roy family and their sprawling right-wing media empire. Basically, it's a bunch of rich people treating each other like garbage and openly mocking morality and ethics. And as we've gotten deeper and deeper into the series, we've also gotten this hyper relevant window into this corporate world where money and power rule the day. I'm better than you. You're, you know, I hate to say this because I love you, but you're kind of evil. Don't talk about things you don't understand. Well, you're smart.

But what you've done is you've monetized all the fucking American resentments of class and race. I thought I was just telling folks the weather. So aside from just trying to tip you off to, and I'm biased

here, the best show on TV right now, season three came to an end this week. here, the best show on TV right now. Season three came to an end this week, so we figured we had to talk about it. Today on Front Burner, writer and show runner of CBC's Pop Chat, Emile Niazzi, and Vulture's Jackson McHenry on how the HBO hit has become a cultural institution. And warning, there are some major spoilers ahead here, and I'll make sure I give you another spoiler alert when we're about to get to the big ones that center around the finale. All right, Emile Jackson, thank you so much for being here today for what I think is probably going to be my favorite Front Brooder episode of the year. So thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited. I'm still processing the finale, so I'm excited to talk. I know, I know. Me too. I can't wait for this. I want to ask both of you, what do you think it is about the show that is so compelling? Maybe you don't think it's as compelling as I do, but Jackson, let's start with you. I think it's because it gets, I mean, it's obviously set in this world that not very few of us, like a tiny, tiny percentage of the world actually occupies of billionaires and private jets and these family monies like the Murdochs or that kind of world. But it's relatable in that it captures all of this family drama in a way that is very funny and very brutal of the way all of these siblings

are jockeying for power, trying to replace their father and their various failed attempts to do so that you can latch onto. And even though the characters are despicable, you can sort of understand the dynamics so clearly and it lets you into this kind of mess of a family. Yeah, it's so interesting, because it's like relatable, but it is completely not relatable. So, so, so, so many parts of it. Emil, how about you? I'll bring you in here. I mean, I think, you know, the machinations behind the levers of power that control our lives are going to be endlessly fascinating. You know, there's obvious parallels to Fox News, to Facebook, to, you know, any number of girl boss CEOs that Shiv Roy represents, that basically control so many aspects of our lives. And to

sort of get a peek behind the scenes of that, I think on top of what you've mentioned about the relatable family drama and then access to this like luxury and sort of 1% lifestyle that most of us will never touch. You know, I kind of joke that how dare they make mergers and acquisitions sexy, but that is kind of what they do is,

you know, they take you behind the scenes of a business world that certainly touches your life, but you would otherwise never have a peek inside the boardroom. Totally. I mean, I think I found this last season particularly relevant. And again, spoilers here. You know, when they're like basically anointing the next Republican candidate for president. He's box office. The guy is fucking diesel. He's good on camera. He's fun.

He'll fight. Viewers will eat from his hand. No downside. Yeah, let's just invade Poland. No downside. When they're like sitting in that limo and going through Twitter and reading out tweets and kind of like making fun of them, tweets about Kendall. Guys, it is game time.

The game is good tweet, bad tweet. All right, all right. Bad tweet. I got it. I got it. I got it. Kendall Roy is not a hero, fam. He's bootleg Ross with a daddy complex.

Love it. Love it. Like what are some other great examples that you guys can think of where the show, like, essentially holds up a mirror? Jackson. I think even in the opening credit sequences, they have fake sort of Fox News-like headlines for their ATN news service that are things like gender fluid illegals might be crossing the border twice or I was forced to get chemically castrated because I hit on a woman that sort of referenced the way in which they've made all their money from fear mongering and appealing to basically American racist nativist things um that is very apropos but also kind of not it's it's sort of tangential to the family

drama but also crucial to understanding why all these people are so terrible. They like, they're so attached to this enterprise that has made them so much money that is also absolutely based on, you know, fracturing democracy. And then also, I think it's very of the moment in that this season has brought up the fact that they are kind of crumbling as a empire and worried about the fear of

tech coming and taking them over. And you saw, they talk about a business named Gojo that is sort of tech coming and taking them over. And you saw how they talk about a business named Gojo that is sort of like TikTok or Snapchat or something. And they're worried that they don't have a successful streaming service that captures how these media empires are, all of these people are incredibly sheltered and will never really have to work a day in their lives if they don't want to. But they're also concerned about losing the immense amount of money to even more immense amounts of tech money. I also found the kind of weaponization of wokeness by Kendall, you know, his adoption of social justice language and speak and his kind of posturing as though he was altruistic in his desire to take his father down. Fuck the patriarchy!

You know, and I think we've seen a lot of those parallels with some of what happened, you know, with companies adopting black squares on their Twitter or, you know, slogans that seem very much performative, whereas they didn't any kind of, you know, proactive change in the company structure or its culture. And so I thought that that was a really like incredible and apt display of the kind of politicization of social justice that can happen in that in that corporate world. Mm hmm. 100%. And I want to come back to your point, you know, when you bring up the weaponization of language. I mean, there is something to be said about the incredible writing on the show.

So I want to come right back to that. But first, you know, talking about it being apropos of the moment, I was wondering what you guys both thought about the fact that the show is also airing in a time when people they really do not like rich people, right? And there are no good guys in the show. There was no good rich person in the show. And I just, I wonder what you think about that. And I would throw this question open to either of you. Well, I mean, I think that's what keeps the show watchable. You know, if there was even an ounce of empathy or sympathy for any of these grossly out of touch rich people who are clamoring for control over a position that they've neither earned nor deserve, then we would be watching a totally different show. But the fact that we're all in on the joke that, that they're all bad, that we're really not supposed to root for any of them,

even though I can't help but root for my boy Ken. You know, I think that that is what is behind the success of the show, is we are looking at them as almost museum pieces of a culture that is rapidly dying out, hopefully. Yeah, and there's like that awareness of like, you understand that all these people are so terrible and the show kind of plays with the perceptions of them, like Kendall posing as a social justice warrior

or Shiv being like, well, it's good for feminism that I would be in charge and being very girl bossy. But the sense of them, you sort of understand, oh yeah, as like the youngest sibling might want to have a say, there's a sense of of them you sort of understand oh yeah as like the youngest sibling might want to have a say there's a sense of you can understand their motivations um but the show would definitely crumble if you thought any of them were actually good because it's so crucial to be able to enjoy them watch having their comeuppance and enjoy the sort of scrabble in the mud that they're all having um and understand how ludicrous it is. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection.

Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you.

Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. I think, you know, another big reason why the show's hit so much is just its quality. And this felt super obvious to me on Sunday when, for some reason, I watched the new Sex and the City show, like right before Succession. And it just, it just felt like such a big difference. I don't, between watching both

shows, I just felt like the quality of the writing in Succession, I appreciated even, I appreciated even more. And so, you know, talk to me about how they do seem to pull that off so effortlessly. to where we began there you know there's so many different threads that you could pull at so many layers that you can you know pursue if you want to go back and re-watch from the beginning but for me the the kind of like goosebumps moment was when i go back to the the episode when tom walks into greg's office nero and sporus i don't this is not'm familiar with. Well, Nero pushed his wife down the stairs, and then he had Sporus castrated, and he married him instead. Wow. Plot twist.

Didn't see that coming. I'd castrate you and marry you in a heartbeat. And in the moment, you're sort of. And in the moment, you know, you're sort of watching and you think, you know. Yeah. You know, one of the reasons I love Succession is because it does hearken back to, you know, the great Greek tragedies and Shakespeare. And so it didn't feel out of sorts that he was, you know, referencing Nero in this, you know, incredibly cathartic moment. Just for everyone listening, you are heading into spoiler, big, big time finale, spoiler territory here. So just if you're listening, and you want and you still haven't seen the finale, you might want to turn off the podcast right now. But please, okay,

now go now go. Well, absolutely. Please watch the finale. Because you're just torturing yourself at this point, if you're waiting, but you know, that story that seems like just a great piece of history when it comes back and Tom makes the decision that he makes in the final episode and he goes to Greg and he says, So, um, do you want to come with me, Sporus? Do you want a deal with the devil? Do you want a deal with the devil? And you realize the connections that have been drawn in this amazing callback. And he's about to metaphorically push his wife down the stairs. It's just a perfect piece of writing and a perfect piece of television. And it just made what Tom did contextualized it so perfectly that I truly like, you know, you don't often get chills watching TV these days, especially like, you know, you don't often get chills watching TV these days,

especially like, you know, Jackson, I'm sure like, we have to watch so much TV for our jobs, that it can start to start to feel, you know, the same, but I genuinely was just like, exhilarated watching that piece of television on Sunday night. Yeah. And Jackson, what did you think about that? The finale and, you know, this is when Tom essentially tips Logan off to his kids' attempts to stop Gojo, the tech company, from buying their company, Wastar, like total, total betrayal to his wife. And so, you know, talk to me a bit more about how you felt the show set that up.

You know what you thought of that? Oh, I thought it was really, really clever. And especially because on the surface level, everything that Matthew McFadden has been doing as Tom all season felt like it was enjoyable enough in and of itself that you sort of liked. It seemed like he might be because he's not a direct member of the roy family he's married into it through shiv that he might just be the one who's going to experience the consequences that he constantly talks about going

to jail and preparing for that and very funny scenes and dark scenes where he's concerned about he reads all the prison blogs. He's sad. Their marriage is collapsing. They clearly don't love each other. Their wine is terrible that they have bought from their vineyard. You know, it's earthy. Yeah.

Kind of Germanic. Yeah. There's lots to unpack. It's not floral. It's not sugary or vegetal it's it's it's it's quite agricultural you know it's it's um but and you sort of think oh that's fine enough on its own like that's an interesting little portrait that's kind of tangential to the family the kids trying to overthrow logan and kendall's whole plot but then once you get to the end you

realize no of course he's also a schemer he's also married into this family he's realized he has an opening and he's been sort of so beaten down by a shiv that he leaps at it um and it's very cathartic to see the characters suddenly shift positions and it leave it creates so much more for the next season to go on because suddenly how is shib going to negotiate this how is everyone going to react what's what's the aftermath of this deal going to be um with tom seemingly on the inside and the kids on the outs yes yeah and and also the other character kind of tangentially connected to tom and this is greg that the like bumbling cousin that he's a hanger on with this pension for, I don't know, very kind of accidentally falling up.

My grandpa has made it clear that if I want to secure my future, then I need to sever my links, negotiate a bit of a Grexit. Really now? Jackson, what does he represent in all of this? I think a lot of it is that accidentally falling up but it's also that you understand that he's still kind of a Roy he's he has a very good innate ability to see where the wind's blowing seemingly and even though Tom um you know rags on him all the time and talks about him as Sporus his eunuch that he will you know eventually marry um there

there's a like there's a connection between them as as two guys who sort of keep on wanting to climb up to as tom describes it the the bottom of the top um which is also a little you know homoerotic joke but um the the sense of of him having some ability to see where where things are going and accidentally you know flirting with the woman who might be in line to the throne of luxembourg um at the wedding and there's this sort of absurdity to him coming in from a less wealthy corner of the family to their extreme wealth um but also kind of having a sense of it's almost like a victorian novel or something someone who just keeps on falling upward yeah but i would argue that tom and greg have more in common with with Logan than the Roy kids do at times because they are, you know, Tom is a self-made man like Logan and Logan sort of appreciates that and doesn't see that in any of his kids because they've always had access to the inner and upper echelons.

So, you know, I think in many ways, Tom is the son that Logan never had. And Greg aligning himself, you know, Greg could have just kept his mouth shut and inherited his grandfather's money. He chose all of this on purpose, which makes him in many ways the most strategic one behind Tom. one behind Tom. You know, since we're talking about Logan right now, is he a monster? Or is he just this realist mastermind, this sort of brilliant, ruthless guy who's always three moves ahead? Well, I guess he can sort of be both. Like, I think he thinks of himself as sort of amoral and he constantly talks about it's just about the money for me and all these decisions but i guess part of the point of the show is that if you so firmly believe in like this capitalist enterprise and believe that

the bottom line is always the winner then you turn into logan and that you that it destroys your family and relationships and he doesn't of, he seems to not really care cause he's so obsessed with winning, but it does so much damage to everyone around him that you just have to kind of reckon with that. Or at least the show is about reckoning with that, I guess. We're a family. We can have our bunks.

I don't expect that. Well, it's not that I was- Family, Siobhan! If you don't understand that, then fuck off. Emile, do you think he actually loves his kids? I think that he... Yes, I think he does love his kids. I think he wishes that they would be

a bit more self-made. I think that he wants to see them carve out their own paths. And it's hard to respect someone that's been handed everything, still fumbles it, and then, you know, asks for more. So in a way, how could he ever see any of them taking over what he built with his bare hands? Like, I kind of understand his almost disdain for them. Despite the fact that probably somewhere deep down, he does love them. He just doesn't respect

them very much. I want to ask you guys about the the show creator Jesse Armstrong for a second, you know, since we're talking about these really interesting characters and character development and the writing and before before this he was known for creating some of britain's best comedy dramas like peep show life's all pain pain rejection and gloom why do we even pretend there's nothing but a yawning blankness at the heart of hey 33 extra free i am doing excellent the thick of it in my quest to try and make you understand the level of my um unhappiness i'm likely to use an awful lot of what we would call violent sexual imagery and i just wanted to check that neither of you would be terribly offended by that and and how does his

earlier work here you think inform succession i mean I love both of those shows that you've just mentioned. And certainly anyone that's seen The Thick of It sees echoes in the sort of rapid fire insults that Shiv and Roman have been trading back and forth all season. You know, that's certainly the handiwork of someone who has studied in the British political theatre. And of course, you know, Peep Show, I think was an incredible, though, you know, it feels dramatically different. It's about two roommates. You're really in their POV and you sort of see their relationship to each other through

a very narrow perspective. But again, it's all about relationships and how, you know, we're able to sort of enter into a character's point of view so succinctly and so intimately that I think Jesse Armstrong is such a master of. Yeah, and I think he's also the dialogue, the level of like precision of the insults on Succession. I remember reading an interview with him once where he says sort of, they think of the insults, not just what's a funny thing for someone to say but what's the funny thing that would be most funny for this character but this sense of being so particular in your dialogue to the world of every single character and that it sort of grounds everything

in this reality even as even as sort of it goes to the absurd levels yeah yeah like cringe worthy levels yeah exactly and it just feels so honed by his like comedy british comedy background where even as sort of it goes to the absurd levels. Yeah, yeah. Like cringe-worthy levels. Yeah. Exactly. And it just feels so honed by his like comedy, British comedy background where it's like, okay, we're going to have to go over these scripts and find green comb to make this really work. Before we go, I do want to talk a little bit about the acting as well

because I don't know. I think it's fair to say with the exception of Brian Cox, who plays Logan, who is a really respected British actor, none of these people were household names. And yet they're all incredible. And can we talk about that for a second? Emile? Yeah, I mean, I think everyone that's read the Jeremy Strong profile from The New Yorker that dropped last weekend is now intimately familiar with his acting method. Right. And this is the guy who plays Kendall.

Yeah, this is the guy who plays Kendall, who, you know, he may not have been a household name, but he was certainly working with some top directors before Succession and slowly amassing this incredible repertoire of roles. But it's true that the acting on this series is sublime. You know, it's some of the best performances anywhere with some of the best actors of their generation. You know, we talk a lot about Jeremy Strong. He is impeccable as Kendall, but, you know, Kieran Culkin has delivered

one of the most magnetic, hilarious, cringy performances of the entire year. And so together you have a cast that is holding each other up and sort of forcing everyone on that show to rise to a level that most shows could not sustain this many incredible performances. Well, I think also it's wonderful that they've also cast so many people who seem comfortable with improvisation and comfortable with sort of writing to who the characters are. J. Smith Cameron, who plays Jerry, they sort of wrote her character more and more towards the center of the show because she could sort of roll with it and because she could come in and develop this character and had an interesting dynamic with Kieran Culkin. And so it seems like a show of the show because she could sort of roll with it and because she could come in and develop this character and had an interesting dynamic with Kieran Culkin. And so it seems like a show that

has a wonderful trade-off between the performances these actors are giving and the writing and the sense that they found people who seem game to kind of see whatever direction a thing develops in, which makes it very fun to watch because it feels like it's responding to its own sort of conversation and i'll just say for people who haven't read that new yorker profile that emil mentioned about jeremy strong it sort of like goes into his very intense uh acting methods i guess it's not method acting uh in in the way that he views it, but it was just very intense. I don't know. People were saying it made him seem like a jerk.

I just thought it made him seem really serious. And then like a very intense guy. Yeah. He's just committed to the role. Yeah. It pays off because he's amazing at it. Yeah. Like it's working.

And it seems like they all come in with their different methods. Like Brian Cox is going full Shakespeareew mcfadden is playing sort of like weird sardonic british comedy and it all kieran colkin is like playing as if he's in a you know a sap farce or something so it seems like it's somehow it all meshes together but my favorite line from the new yorker piece was kieran colkin saying that he once said to Jeremy Strong that he thought the show was a comedy. And Jeremy Strong, like, thought he was kidding. And it makes, like, so much sense when you watch them both. Well, Kendall thinks he's in a big drama.

And Roman thinks he's in a comedy. Yeah, yeah. All right. Final question to you both. Final question to you both. One of the things that Jesse Armstrong said in an interview with Variety is that there's a promise in the show's title, right? Succession. And that it can't go on forever. And with the three kids, their heir parents, seemingly forced out now because of, as we see in the finale, it's like the red wedding of this show.

Where does that leave things? Like, what do you guys think will, will happen next? And Jackson, I'll start with you. I think it really depends on how far ahead the show jumps in the next season. I can imagine it being right in the midst of the deal making, or I can imagine it being that Gojo has fully subsumed Waystar and the kids are having to adjust to a new reality um but either way it does feel like we've seen so many instances of people trying to rise up against logan and being swatted down we know that logan has a ton of health issues and they've kind of recurred in

the last season with his uti and things like that that inevitably the big dramatic move is that he's going to have to die um and it may be in the middle of this next season, it may be at the beginning, it could even be at the end. But it feels like the next sort of big question is without this figure who is so good at controlling everything, like what happens when things fall apart? Yeah, I think that, you know, despite Tom's power move at the end of this season and, you know, Logan's disdain for his children, this is a show about Kendall and Logan and the prodigal son. And Jesse Armstrong himself has said that Kendall is the heart of this show, the beating heart of this show. So it felt to me like Kendall had this sort of Jesus narrative throughout this season.

He finally drowned. He absolved himself of his sins. And I think he's ready to rise again. But I probably say that every season. But I really think that next season is Kendall season. And we're going to see the showdown with a week in Logan that we've maybe kind of been hoping for since the very first episode where Ken's in that limo getting himself hyped up to take him down. Brownstones, water towers, trees, skyscrapers, firefighters and Wall Street traders. All right, your boy Kendall. All right, thanks guys.

This is awesome. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. Thank you. All right, I'm Jamie Poisson. Thank you so much for listening to FrontBurner. The wonderful Angela Starrett will be here tomorrow, and I will see you next week.

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