Front Burner - How the 5G conspiracy makes COVID-19 fight harder

Episode Date: May 18, 2020

A series of cell phone tower fires in Europe and Canada have been linked to a conspiracy theory about 5G networks and the coronavirus — a theory that’s been boosted by celebrities and politicians, and that has deep ties to the anti-vaccine movement. Today, CBC Senior Investigative Reporter Katie Nicholson joins us to break down the conspiracies, and talk about how they could have serious implications for the fight against COVID-19.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Pia Chattopadhyay. You might have heard about cell phone towers being lit on fire. More than a hundred of them so far in the UK, the Netherlands, Ireland, Cyprus, and more recently, here in Canada. Flames consume a cellular tower, the first of seven such fires in Quebec.

Today, a man and woman in their early 20s were charged with setting two of them. The investigation is looking that they were responsible for seven of the arson. Now, we don't know for sure what the accused couple's motivations might have been, but we do know that those fires in Europe have been linked to a conspiracy theory about the coronavirus and 5G cell phone technology. A theory that's been boosted by celebrities, politicians and influential anti-vaccine groups. I'm joined today by Professor Steve Paris, Medical Director of NHS England. So the 5G story is complete and utter rubbish. And yeah, I know, this theory might seem like it's on the fringe, but it can tell us a lot about the power of conspiracies, especially during this pandemic, and how they're already making the fight against

COVID-19 even harder. Today, I'm speaking with Katie Nicholson. She's a CBC senior investigative reporter, and she's working with CBC's COVID-19 fact-checking unit. This is FrontBurner. is. This is kind of the latest generation of cell phone networks. And I, of course, know what the coronavirus is. But build the bridge between these seemingly very different things for me. Precisely tie this conspiracy about 5G and COVID-19 together for me. The idea is that the radiation from 5G, either A, enhances a virus or bacteria's ability to reproduce itself, so making it super potent, you know, it could ravage the body theoretically faster. The second idea is that it's the radiation from 5G that creates a cellular toxicity, and that, in fact, it's not a virus that's causing this pandemic. And that, in fact, it's not a virus that's causing this pandemic. It is just a byproduct of cellular waste and toxicity because your cells have been affected by 5G radiation. So these are the sort of the two main conspiracy ideas. sounds to me like an enormous stretch to make sense of, right?

That one, COVID-19 may not be a virus at all. Two, that it's somehow linked to cell phone and 5G. Why are people believing this? People are believing this because there is already a strong inclination to distrust 5G technology. And scientists and science communicators have seen this with 3G and 4G. Every time there was a new version of it, these new fears would sort of emerge. Preeti Agarwal, a resident of Delhi's posh defence colony,

was worried about headaches and sleepless nights. Now she carries a radiation detector. My mother was here. I had to send her back because I can't risk her life. All the time the radiation is so high if you have seen the meter yourself. So there is within the anti-vax community, there is a distrust of this technology. But also what we have seen, sort of analysts looking at where this is coming from, there have been, in the last two or three years, Russia Today has put out an awful lot of segments and published articles about how 5G could impact your health.

It does sound impressive, right? Who wouldn't want all of that? Well, some might ask, there's got to be a catch. There is. Just a small one, it might kill you. Good to know. Your phone is constantly sending electromagnetic fields in and out of each other. So this is largely coming from a Russian media organization that has ties to disinformation, misinformation from the Russian government itself.

And what security analysts suggest is that a lot of this is because Russia is trying to sow distrust in the technology as it's emerging in North America, because they're behind the eight ball in developing their own 5G wireless infrastructures. So this is sort of one of the suggestions as to where this is coming from. And there has already been this uptake among conspiracy-minded people over the last couple of years, this paranoia around 5G and fear that it could impact health. Even though the CDC, the WHO all say that the evidence points there is no negligible or appreciable health effect of 5G on the human body.

Okay, I got you. So the distrust of the technology was already there. So what do we know about how this 5G and COVID-19 conspiracy theory originated? Okay, so this starts as far as we've been able to trace it back to about January 20th. There was a French blog post, so that's in France, that seemed to tie the idea that Wuhan was one of the cities that had 5G infrastructure in place first in China to the outbreak. And about two days later, there was an interview with a scientist in a Belgian newspaper that again seemed to suggest that there was a tie. That particular article disappeared about a day later and the damage

was already done. People were already looking to seize on this. The weeks that followed saw the claim repeated over and over on social media. Do you see the perfect storm here for health issues? Some, like this Ontario apothecary owner, posted this YouTube video claiming 5G weakens the immune system, allowing COVID-19 to attack. Then you flash forward to March. There's a viral video coming from a natural doctor, sort of a naturopath. I can't help but say something about this whole coronavirus thing.

Who has already gotten in hot water with the California State Medical Board for some of the stuff that he has talked about. He's a well-known anti-vaxxer. This actually has something to do with the vaccine question. So if you start injecting aluminum in people, they become receptors. He does this video where, again, he sort of repeats this idea that somehow 5G waves are responsible for the outbreak. Now, his take on it is a little different. He says that this is not a virus. This epidemic has not been caused by a virus. In fact, it is caused by cell toxicity because of sort of 5G radiation and its effect on cells. And the cells get poisoned. They try to purify themselves by excreting debris, which we call viruses. So these are the sort of like, this is the soup from which this came.

And it sort of took what was already a pre-existing fear of 5G technology and tied it directly to the coronavirus. But Pia, we know that these things are not true. It's actually been something that the anti-vax community has used fairly frequently. University of Manitoba virologist Jason Kinvichuk has heard this 5G poisoning idea before. We've been able to put that virus into rhesus macaques, which are non-human primate and are very similar to humans in terms of how they respond to many different pathogens and illnesses.

And those animals get sick with something that looks kind of like mild COVID-19. and those animals get sick with something that looks kind of like mild COVID-19. And you mentioned Wuhan, and I know that the Chinese telecom company Huawei has also been active in supplying equipment for 5G networks in a number of countries around the world. Canada is the only country in the Five Eyes that hasn't blocked or restricted Huawei's plans over security concerns. The U.S., Australia and New Zealand have frozen the company out from their 5G networks. How much might the appeal of this conspiracy theory be tied to any anti-Chinese xenophobia?

Well, certainly among the motivations of people who are sharing and propagating these ideas, people who buy into these are coming from a wide variety of backgrounds. So there are people who are, you know, furthering the anti-vaccination agenda. There are people who are sort of want to foster divisions within society, sort of throw greater stresses between the tensions that already exist. So whether that's xenophobia or creating some sort of anti-Asian sentiment, yes, we, you know, you see various groups who are trying to do that as well in sharing and propagating these theories. So this one disgraced doctor puts out this video. From that little nugget, like how does this even, this theory even blow up from there? Then it got shared and retweeted by celebrities.

So you sort of have that amplification effect. There's a singer named Carrie Hilson who propagated this particular video. And she has, you know, hundreds of thousands of Instagram followers. So that's sort of how it happened. It got amplified by celebrities who are really into this kind of natural medicine, who are slightly distrustful of authority. Like who? So Woody Harrelson, John Cusack, you know, there are a number of big names who, you know, occasionally do retweet a lot of this stuff.

One video making the rounds is called Plandemic. It's very clear this virus was manipulated. This family of viruses was manipulated and studied in a laboratory. Timothy Caulfield is the Canada Research Chair in Health and Law Policy. Really frustrating. No evidence to support that at all. It's so much easier, maybe it feels a little more attractive to have a story that provides an explanation, as opposed to this is complicated, we're uncertain, and we're still investigating it. But her story is not what the scientific consensus supports.

What is it about the coronavirus, Katie, do you think that makes it, I don't know, like such fertile territory for conspiracy theorists? I think so much of it is because we don't know the origin. And the origin, people just need to have that. They need to be able to say, this caused that. So it came from a lab. They want to be able to say that. Or it came from this wet market. But it came from a lab. They want to be able to say that or it came from this wet market or but we just don't know. And, you know, a lot of virologists are saying we may never

know where it came from. Okay. And so since it's such fertile territory for conspiracy theories, it being coronavirus, why have anti-vaxxers latched on to this particular theory? What makes it rife for them? Anti-vaxxers have latched on to this particular theory? What makes it rife for them? Anti-vaxxers have latched on to this because one of the big things about this pandemic is there is now a race for a vaccine, a drive for a vaccine. And so anti-vaxxers know that that is coming. And that is another vaccine that they see is going to be pushed on them. So now is the time to sow the seeds of doubt, to get people over to their side, to question whether they want to get this vaccine, and to just put

that in people's minds that you shouldn't mindlessly, you know, be the sheeple getting this vaccine because public health officials are telling you that. Katie, this is all jumped from, you know, the online world to the real world. We've seen cell phone towers lit on fire in the Netherlands, Ireland, the UK, in Quebec, here in Canada. Damages were relatively minor. But firefighters were barely done when a second tower started burning. Police officers noticed the vehicle. It was stopped and they arrested both persons in the

vehicle. And the men and women in Quebec who were arrested a few weeks ago in connection to two of the fires there, what do we know about them? What do we know so far about whether this pair was motivated by any of these 5G conspiracies you've been talking about? We know that one of the parents of one of the suspects was interviewed by Le Journal du Québec and was quoted as saying, you know, you can still believe in the cause without causing damage or vandalizing. So it was essentially sort of a tip of the hat. Now, the lawyer hasn't acknowledged, the lawyer representing the couple has not acknowledged whether they had, in fact, sort of been a part of this ideology. But it is suspect that this is happening at a time when, you know, 77 towers in the UK were lit on fire and vandalized for what police there believe are the same reasons.

And thank you for joining us for our daily briefing in the fight against COVID-19. The stories have gone about that they play a role in the spread of the disease. That's just nonsense, dangerous nonsense as well. And, you know, in speaking with my colleagues in misinformation and disinformation at Radio Canada in Quebec, they told me that there are a couple of hotbeds around Montreal and just outside of Laval where their information is that, yeah, there are a fair number of people who are anti-5G. And we do know that just back in January, in Montreal, there were protests against 5G.

I've looked at the videos. People were out taking to the streets because they were upset about 5G coming to Montreal. Let's go, Jay! Connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Katie, I said we'd get back to the anti-vaccine movement, and I want to do that because floating around these kinds of groups and the movement itself is this other COVID conspiracy theory. And this has to do with someone who is a big proponent of vaccination. And that's Microsoft founder Bill Gates. Tell me about that.

So Bill Gates has been in the crosshairs of the anti-vax movement for some time. He's, you know, known for sort of pushing vaccination in third world countries, things like polio. In 1988, when it was gone from the rich countries, it was still killing or paralyzing over 300,000. And that's when people said, this is such an injustice. Let's raise the money. It's something that his foundation is very much involved in. We know that he is helping fund a lot of the trials,

a lot of research going into coronavirus right now. And it's going to require incredible collaboration. It's going to have to go to 7 billion people. And so there have been a number of sort of theories going around or conspiracy theories about him. There was one that something like 400,000 children in India had an adverse effect to the polio vaccine there and were in some way maimed for life, that sort of thing, which has been debunked by numerous news sources. So with coronavirus,

there's this whole idea coming from places like Infowars, the QAnon world, sort of that deep entrenched anti-establishment and conspiracy theorist world of the right in the States, that this is all a big move for him to somehow tag all humans. So everybody who will eventually get this vaccine will receive some sort of a microchip that will allow Bill Gates to follow you around and track you for the rest of your life. Guess who runs Facebook's science division and decides what you can say about zinc, vitamin D, hydroxychloroquine? Who says on Facebook that

the president's a liar and there's no hope? Only Bill Gates can save you. One of the top scientists at the Wuhan Bioweapons Lab. So if I'm hearing you right, Katie, like if I've got this straight, some people think Bill Gates of Microsoft wants to make a coronavirus vaccine because he wants to put a microchip in it in order to control people. But according to them, a coronavirus vaccine isn't necessary in the first place because it's actually the 5G that's making people sick. Do I have all this right? I mean, some people may believe that. They all sort of like mesh together. There are so many different conspiracies. So yeah, that's probably what a number of these people who believe this.

Yeah. Yeah. It's not just out there on the online world and on the platforms. We've seen on the ground in Vancouver, anti-lockdown protests. And some of the protesters, not saying everyone there, you know, came out for the same reasons, but some of them were carrying signs about Bill Gates and about 5G, weren't they? Yeah, so what's really interesting about the anti-lockdown protests, it's sort of like a who's who flavor of what the predominant conspiracy theories are out there about the pandemic. Because literally, if you watch the videos, it's one after another. And it just sort of speaks to how fractured a lot of the messaging is out there. I mean, I would say that Canada has been pretty clear and consistent in our public health messaging.

But because there is so much fractured messaging and because people are not always taking their information from verified sources, and because the generators of conspiracy, misinformation, disinformation are so well organized and so prolific. There's just so much noise out there. I think it is hard for people who are vulnerable and scared to sort through that. Trump spent the weekend behind closed doors, lashing out as he vented about media coverage that he says has been unfair. At one point, he also retweeted a conspiracy that the death toll numbers from coronavirus

are being inflated to hurt him politically. So I want to, just before I let you go, talk to you about what you think this might mean for the future. Because here we are physically, socially distancing, and we're really doing it to buy time, to flatten the curve, to make sure our hospitals aren't overwhelmed. But really it is to buy time until there can be a COVID-19 vaccine. If there can be one, it's looking like a year, maybe two years. vaccine. If there can be one, it's looking like a year, maybe two years. But then there's right now this coordinated anti-vaccine movement that, as you say, Katie, is building up steam, like getting ready for the big battle when the vaccine comes out. So what are the consequences, as you see it, of this conspiracy for the fight against COVID-19? The trick is, there is already now this concerted movement, this campaign to sow

this distrust in people's minds about whether or not you can trust a vaccine for this virus, which could inhibit uptake of a potential vaccine when and if we actually have one, which then could alter its effectiveness. Like if people don't go and get this vaccine, that constitutes a major challenge for public health officials. It could ensure that the virus continues to ravage populations. And so that's really, I think, the big challenge right now is because the anti-vaxxers have already got their messaging in before a vaccine has even been developed. It's going to be an uphill battle for, say, the Public Health Agency of Canada to convince those parts of our population who are buying into this that they should get this vaccine when it becomes available.

Katie, thanks a lot. Thanks for explaining this all to me. You're welcome. That's all for today. I'm Pia Chattopadhyay. Thank you so much for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk again tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.