Front Burner - How the Israel-Hamas hostage deal happened

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

How did Israel and Hamas reach a deal that led to a brief pause in fighting and the release of dozens of captives on both sides of the conflict? Julian Borger, a Washington-based world affairs editor with the Guardian takes us through the tense negotiations. For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Damon Fairless. On October 7th, Hamas attacked Israel, killing about 1,200 people and taking about 240 more hostage. Since then, freeing those hostages has been one of two main goals for Israel. The other? Crushing Hamas.

According to the Hamas-run Gaza Health Authority, Israel's bombardment of Gaza, followed by its ground invasion, has killed more than 13,000 Palestinians, roughly two-thirds of them women and children. For Hamas, the captives taken on October 7th have been a critical form of leverage. And since the beginning of the fighting, pressure has been building to secure their release. Last week, a deal was struck. And over the weekend, Israel and Hamas exchanged prisoners.

So how did that deal come about? And what are the possible opportunities and pitfalls that lie ahead? Julian Borger is The Guardian's World Affairs Editor in Washington. He's been reporting on this, and he's here to talk about it. Hey, Julian, it's great to have you back on FrontBurner. Thanks. Good to be here. Okay, so let's start with the specifics of this deal. What exactly did Israel and Hamas agree to? this deal. What exactly did Israel and Hamas agree to? Israel and Hamas have agreed to a prisoner swap. And the terms of that swap are 50 hostages being held by Hamas will be released in return for 150 Palestinians who've been in Israeli jail. On both sides, these will be women and children.

And this exchange is supposed to happen over the course of four days. And we're now on the third of the four days. Yeah, so I'm talking to you on Sunday. It started on Friday. And Israel's agreed to a few terms here. I'm just curious specifically about what this means for their bombardment and ground incursion. There's supposed to be no air traffic, no air sorties by drones or fighter planes over southern Gaza at all. And air sorties are restricted to six hours in the middle of the day over the north. That's to do with bombardment to a certain extent, but also Hamas didn't want there to be air surveillance while the hostages were being delivered to the Rafah crossing point and into Egypt.

And what about the ground forces, Israel's ground forces? They are supposed to stay where they are. There's not supposed to be any military movements at all, and there's supposed to be no arrests or attacks. Okay, so let's talk about who's been released so far. And let's start with the captives held by Hamas. And as we mentioned, we're in day three of a four-day pause. So this is developing.

But what can you tell me so far about the folks who were released by Hamas? They've released 13 Israeli hostages a day. So we're now, Sunday we're up to 39. These have been women and children, a lot of children among them. Racing into his father's arms, Ohad, who was released yesterday. He turned nine in captivity. And crowded onto one bed, the Ashers. Did you miss me? Yoni asks. I dreamt about going home, says Raz, who's four. Abigail Edan was taken hostage on October 7th

when she was just three years old. Abigail turned four on Friday, but we are told now that she is among those back in Israel and receiving medical care. As well as that, some Thais, Filipino, and a Russian have been released. And there's a caveat here where Hamas has indicated it's not going to release any what they're calling military hostages, right?

That's right. They will not release people they deem to be reservists or potential reservists, people of military age. And then on the other side, who has Israel released? And then on the other side, who has Israel released? Israel has released 39 prisoners per day. So that's 117 over the three days so far. And those also have been women and minors, some of whom were swept up in what's called administrative detention, detention without trial. Some of the teenagers being freed were picked up because they've thrown stones, for example, but they include others, women in particular, who were jailed for attacks, attempted murder in some cases. There's one woman, Israa Jabis,

One woman, Isra Jabis, who was accused of detonating a gas cylinder from her car, intended to kill Israeli soldiers at a checkpoint. She herself is disfigured from that explosion. And she's sort of the most celebrated of the detainees released so far. Isra Jabis is one of the Palestinian prisoners released as part of the deal afterees released so far. Isra Jabis is one of the Palestinian prisoners released as part of the deal after eight years in prison. She spoke about her feelings on being set free. I am very shy and ashamed to celebrate while the whole of Palestine is bleeding.

One of the things that really characterizes this exchange is just how precarious it is. And so after that first group of hostages had been released by Hamas, there was a delay between then and the second group. What happened there? Yeah, there were complaints by Hamas that the food deliveries or the aid deliveries that had been promised were not up to the level that had been promised, that only less than half a number of trucks of aids that were supposed to get to the north of Gaza had arrived. So they also complained, saying that there had been drones over flights. And so they held up the delivery of the second contingent of hostages for several hours while that was sorted out.

So this morning on Sunday, I was reading your article in The Guardian. And the thing that really captivated me was the insight you had in how this deal came together. You mentioned something called a secret cell within the Biden administration. Can you tell me who was that secret cell? How did it work? A few days after the hostages were taken and a few days after the Hamas attack, the Qataris got of people from the U.S., a couple of people from Israel, a couple of people from Qatar, who would handle the hostage issue and the hostage negotiations with maximum secrecy.

So the U.S. National Security Advisor, Jake Sullivan, he appointed Brett McGirt, who is the White House Middle East coordinator, and as well, Josh Gelser, who is deputy counsel. And those were the Americans sitting within this cell. And it was kept secret from the rest of the administration. And the Qataris and Israelis were insistent on this. They didn't want leaks. And so it was very tightly held. And so it was really interesting to read about how the Qataris, the Israelis, this secret cell within the Biden administration, also the Egyptians, there were a lot of moving parts when this started rolling. So what did that initial set of conversations set in motion in terms of hostage negotiations?

Well, fairly early on, the deal that we're seeing unfold now was the deal on the table. Hamas said it was ready to free women and children. It also included the elderly and sick in their initial offer. And the expectation was that there would be a five-day ceasefire in the early iteration of this, and that some multiple of the hostages released of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails would be released. We now know that that multiple was three. They wanted three Palestinians for every hostage that they released. And so this was the first thing put on the table. And it had taken shape by late October, October 25th. And so this was, of course, when the Israelis were about to launch their ground offensive.

So this was a key decision for Benjamin Netanyahu and his government. Would they accept this deal? Before we saw this deal that's happening now come into fruition, there were a couple of smaller prisoner exchanges. Did that set the table for this larger one? How did that work? Yeah, two Americans were released on the 20th, two Israelis released. Natalie Renan and her mother Judith, flanked by Israeli soldiers, emerged into Israel after negotiations led by Qatar. They'd come from Chicago to visit family in Israel when they were taken by Hamas. An extraordinary moment as a freed Israeli hostage shakes hands with who held her captive.

It happened as 85-year-old Yekevid Lifshitz and 79-year-old Marik Cooper were handed over to the Red Cross. This was supposed to be proof of concept that this Qatari-based cell would work, that the Qatari's could deliver if the negotiations were held within this cell, including American officials, Israelis, Qataris, and then communications sometimes through Egypt to the Hamas leadership, and in particular, Yahya Senua, the commander inside Gaza. And so the release of these four hostages earlier on showed that it could work, and that set the table for a broader deal. So one of the things that struck me too from your article is in the development of these hostage negotiations, it becomes clear that Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is under growing pressure from the hostage families. And you described this really compelling moment fairly early on in the war. Netanyahu had been reluctant to meet with some of the families of the hostages.

And then when he finally does, there's this really tense moment. We've got a number of the families and then a group of, I think, four people who come in. Can you tell me what happened there? Yeah. So after a lot of pressure, I think eight days had gone by and hostage families were demanding to meet Netanyahu. Finally, they make this arrangement that five families from the organization that are quickly set up to represent the hostage interest. And then last moment, another four people turn up who they'd never seen before. They didn't know

who they were. There was no prior warning. And the man in this group who came to have a daughter who was a hostage started speaking up and kind of reciting the government's talking point that the interest of the few, of the hostages, should not trump the interests of the nation, and urging Netanyahu to act coolly and decisively and not give in to sentiment. And the rest of the hostage families are thinking, who are these people? Where do they come from? And very much got the sense that this was rigged, that this was a bit of theater. They were plants.

And it does seem that these people were genuinely related to hostages, but they were from a right-wing settler group who had their own agenda. So in terms of the broader group of families who have loved ones who are hostages, what did that signal to them about the Netanyahu government's willingness to negotiate? Well, I think it said something they already knew, that they couldn't trust Netanyahu, that this was someone ultimately, primarily, and constantly interested in his own political survival, which is very much in doubt after the 7th of October. And they fear that he has an incentive to keep the war going because when the war is over, if the war came to a lasting ceasefire, his position would be very much in question.

So there are a lot of doubts and suspicions about Netanyahu's motives. And of course, this incident only made those deeper. Relatives feel the government has failed to consult them and give regular updates. It's been three weeks and we don't know what's happening to our loved ones. We don't know their fate. We are afraid. We are worried. I think what I'm taking away after reading your article is that it really seems like the US was in the driver's

seat here in terms of truly getting these negotiations going. And I should point out, as we mentioned before, there were a lot of actors here, Qatar and Egypt and Israel and Hamas as well. Is that fair for me to conclude that? Yeah, I think that is a very fair comment. Joe Biden, from the onset, forged a very personal connection with U.S. hostage families. He had a Zoom call with them two days before Netanyahu met any of the Israeli hostage families. And this call was described by White House officials as being one of the most gut-wrenching things I've ever witnessed because of the kind of rawness of the emotions of the families. And a few days later, Biden flew to Israel. And one of the first things he did after getting off the plane was to meet these Ham families in the flesh. And then he went

later to meet Netanyahu and by the White House telling of it, he very much put hostages and the interests of the hostages at the centre of any planning for the military campaign. I'm going to go. to impart by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income.

That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So once the U.S. really gets involved here and we've got this kind of plan for a hostage exchange, there were some challenges. And there was also a major deadlock between Israel and Hamas.

But then on November 9th, the head of the CIA met with the head of Israel's spy service, Mossad, to get on a plane. What happened there? Yeah, the head of Mossad, David Bania, and Bill Burns, CIA director, both go to Doha to meet with the top ranks of the Qatari government to try and make this deal that had been outlined of a hostage release, a prisoner release, and a ceasefire to turn that into reality. And by all accounts, Banea was relaying that information back to Israel. And Netanyahu took a really firm line on it. He kept on coming back with further demands. And central demand the israeli demand uh was they didn't know who was going to be released the hamas was really vague about uh the details of who they had and who they were going to release and this from late october until the the deal was actually done was the major sticking point.

They wanted proof of life. They wanted details. Who have you got? Where are they? And who has control over them? Because not all the hostages, we understand it, are under Hamas control. Others are being held by other groups. So this meeting in Doha, it crystallized the outlines of the deal,

but it didn't clinch the deal because of this one major remaining sticking point. And that's when Biden gets involved again, right? Yes, that's right. He got on the phone a few days later to the Emir of Qatar. And again, right? Yes, that's right. He got on the phone a few days later to the Emir of Qatar. And again, this is the US presentation of it. This is the US narrative that he said to the Emir, enough is enough. This is not going to work without the details of the age, gender, and nationality, etc. And told the Emir to get on it uh and again according to the u.s narrative a few days later that deadlock was broken hamas uh presented this this list of uh the 50 hostages uh and the deal moved forward again Okay, so while that's happening, there's also what's happening on the ground in Gaza.

So there's the Israeli Air Force is bombing Gaza, and then there's also the ground invasion that starts in late October. And then there's also the ground invasion that starts in late October. But there are two moments during this military campaign where the military goals seem to threaten the hostage return. So I want to talk about both of those. The first is these two airstrikes on October 31st and November 1st on the Jalabia refugee camp. Israeli airstrikes have hit Gaza's biggest refugee camp for the second day in a row, according to the territory's Hamas-run government. Israel has not said whether it did carry out this attack, but has admitted bombing the camp a day earlier, claiming that a senior Hamas commander was targeted and killed. That's right. I mean, these were devastating strikes, perhaps, you know,

the deadliest strikes that had been up to that point. And by the various accounts of the negotiations, that led to a blackout. Sinwa went silent, at least for a couple of days. And there was a concern that the whole deal was off. But then he came back online. And then there's also, more recently, the Israeli Defense Force basically sieged al-Shifa hospital. What happened there? Yes. So on 15th of November, you've got the Israeli forces, the ground forces, reach al-Shifa. And they are determined that it is being used as a Hamas control center from the tunnels and chambers underneath the hospital. And they start going through the hospital looking for the entrance for these chambers. necessity, IDF forces are carrying out a precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a

specified area in the Shifa hospital." Doctors reported scenes of chaos as tanks moved inside the main gates. Israeli soldiers reportedly entered buildings to search every room and corridor and interrogated doctors and medical staff. And this leads to another hold-up in the negotiations where you have Sinua demanding the IAF leave. The Israelis refusing, but they did say, well, we promise we'll keep the hospital part of the compound going. In the end, again, after a delay of another couple of days, Sinwar got back in touch

through the Egyptians, through the Egyptian intelligence, and the talks were back on. And also, I should just point out that when we're saying Sinwar, we're talking about Yair Sinwar, the head of Hamas. The head of Hamas inside Gaza, yes, who more and more as this unfolds is, yes, Hamas inside Gaza, yes, who more and more as this unfolds is, yes, emerging as the overall head and the most powerful figure by far in the organization. Okay, so while this is happening, we've also got increasing pressure building inside Israel too, right? What's happening there? The hostages become more and more successful at putting pressure on Netanyahu. At the beginning, the hostage campaign was sort of not focused. It was international, and the Israeli government was happy with that. It reinforced the horror of the 7th of October attack.

But after talking to the Qataris and to a certain extent, the Americans, the hostage families came to the conclusion that if they were going to make a difference, they would have to focus at home because they realized that the main obstacle in terms of Israel and its allies, was the Israeli government and the indecision in the Israeli government over whether to have a pause in the interest of freeing the hostages or to press their advantage militarily against Hamas. And so the hostage families grew their campaign. They got a lot of sympathy from the Israeli population and they became a very significant political point of pressure on the Netanyahu government. Many Israelis are losing their patience. They have been regularly protesting, asking the government to do more.

At this point, when we know that taking down Hamas, we keep hearing from them, it's going to take months or years, and it's going to take a long time. On the other hand, the other objective is time sensitive. People are dying. So then eventually this deal, the one that's happening this weekend, comes through. Can you walk me through the final stages of how that was clinched? The final stages of the deal were really about Netanyahu and his coalition, because it was very much split over the hostage deal. because it was very much split over the hostage deal. And Netanyahu was very concerned that if he pushed through the deal,

that his coalition would fall apart. And it came down to this last night of cabinet deliberations, where first he met the war cabinet, and then the security cabinet, So firstly met the war cabinet, and then the security cabinet, and then the full cabinet, 38 members, the whole coalition. By this time, it was in the early hours of last Wednesday morning. And by this time, the real hardliners, Otzma Yehudit, led by the National Security Minister Ben-Gavir. By then, they'd pretty much isolated themselves. They'd sort of angered everyone.

They'd had a couple of days before this angry exchange with obviously grieving and really hurt members of hostage families and got into a shouting match over who felt the most pain. And you had relatives of hostages crying on TV and being harangued by these politicians. It wasn't a good look at all. And so by the end, Ben-Gvir and Osmar Yehudit had really isolated themselves. And so they represented much less of a threat to Netanyahu.

And finally, finally, about 3 a.m., you had the whole cabinet voting and voting to accept the deal. So this isn't over by any means. The Israelis have made it clear that they intend to keep fighting. They're not calling this a ceasefire. This deal is set to run out Tuesday morning, but there are still hostages that are to be returned. What are the pitfalls facing the return of the remaining hostages? Well, there is a clause in the agreement that it can be extended by one day for every extra 10 hostages are released. So there is the potential for it to be extended. The Americans and the Egyptians and the Qataris said they're all optimistic that that would happen. Obviously, that cannot go on for long in that there is a limit to the number of hostages

Hamas has and that it's ready to release. It's said that it will not release potential reservists, military-age hostages, particularly men. So that is another limit. So at some point under the existing deal, time will run out. And then the question is, are we back to full scale war again? Okay, so I guess what I'm curious about now is what's going to happen in Gaza now. So once Israel resumes fighting, what are Israel's objectives? Where do you think Hamas will go from here?

Well, Israel has made very clear that it is poised to take up its offensive once more. It says it's still got mopping up to do, particularly of a particular Hamas stronghold within Gaza City or part of Gaza City. But it's also made clear that it plans to head south, in particular to Khan Yunus, and that that is the next major stage. But here you have a real divergence between the Israelis and the Americans

because the Americans have said, and they've said it repeatedly, Jake Sullivan just said it this morning, that they don't want to see that next stage, the move into the south, without a very different approach to the question of civilian casualties. And they've laid this down as a very bright red line. They don't want to see what happened in the north happened to Khan Yunus and other places in the south, where, of course, the Israelis first ordered Gazans to flee to, to take haven. So there is that additional issue of this is where Gazans were told to take shelter. And the Americans have said

the kind of bombing that we saw in the north is just not on from our point of view when it comes to the south. Baskin, and he said that just kind of getting a few hostages exchanged, prisoner exchange, would be really important for setting a precedent and creating a blueprint to follow for the release of more. So after seeing this brief four-day truce and the exchange of hostages and prisoners, is there anything that you think came out of this that we can hold up as a template for further rounds of negotiations or a more substantial cessation of fighting? I think it's shown that there is a working channel of communications through the Qataris and the Egyptians to Hamas leadership inside Gaza, and that negotiations are possible and productive negotiations are possible. But then you get down to the aims of both sides.

And it's very clear from the Israeli side that they don't feel that they've reached their military objectives. They want to really wipe out Hamas in Gaza. And clearly, Hamas is still there. wipe out Hamas in Gaza, and clearly Hamas is still there. So from the point of view of Israeli war aims, this isn't near over. And so then there's a question, they do have this channel to talk, but what, after the hostages are released, would there be to talk about? All right, Julian, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking us through this, and I really enjoyed your article. Thanks. Thank you. Thanks. Pleasure. That's all for today. I'm Damon Fairless. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner,

and I'll talk to you tomorrow.