Front Burner - How the Mark Norman trial could be "a huge political circus"

Episode Date: May 7, 2019

CBC defence reporter Murray Brewster on the upcoming trial of Vice-Admiral Mark Norman, and why it might turn into a political circus, right before the next federal election.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. With breaking news, the suspected leader of a capital region cult... He's been charged with sex trafficking and forced labor... The most searing, awful pain was being dragged across my body. What happens when someone you know tries to take down a bizarre self-help group she's been a part of for 12 years? I'm thinking, how am I going to get out of here? Like, literally, where is the back door? How do I escape?

Escaping NXIVM from CBC Podcasts Uncover. Subscribe now at cbc.ca slash uncover. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Over the weekend, a bunch of journalists and politicians met up in Ottawa for the Press Gallery dinner. And it's a tradition for the leaders of all the parties to get up on stage and tell a few jokes. Jason Kenney finally met a pipeline owner he hates. This guy. I'm hoping Jody Wilson-Raybould is here tonight. I'd love to get a recording of this afterwards.

So Andrew Scheer, leader of the Conservatives, he gets up. And he tells this joke about the trial of a former Navy commander accused of leaking cabinet secrets in relation to a shipbuilding deal. The guy's name is Mark Norman. But maybe there is a silver lining in the whole SNC-Lavalin affair. I mean, it all depends on how you look at it. Instead of thinking about it as a political disaster, Mr. Trudeau could view it as a good dry run for the Mark Norman trial. No, no, that joke was funny. Maybe you just experienced it differently.

On Monday, it certainly looked like the Conservatives were trying to make this former Navy officer's trial into SNC-Lavalin Part 2. The Liberals seem to have a personal vendetta against the Vice Admiral and are going out of their way to block evidence and deny him a fair trial. It's clear yet again that there are one set of rules for friends of the Liberals and a different set for those who are in the Prime Minister's crosshairs. Today, we're going to dive into what the story is all about. We'll talk about who Mark Norman is, what he's accused of doing, and whether this could really be as big as the SNC-level and scandal. I'm delighted my colleague Murray Brewster is with me today to help parse through the details because this story is really complicated.

This is Frontburner. Hi, Murray. Hi, Murray. Hi, Jamie. So it's wonderful to have you back, in part because this is a complex story, but also because you are our very first guest on the pod. Yes, that's right. And thank you for having me back. Well, it is our pleasure. So today we're going to do the Mark Norman case, and we have to start at the beginning here. Who is Mark Norman? you the Mark Norman case, and we have to start at the beginning here. Who is Mark Norman? Vice Admiral Mark Norman is the former vice chief of the defense staff. That means he would be, or was, the second in command of the Canadian military. I want also to put process owners and defenders of the status quo on notice. You will receive no quarter with me.

But before that, his previous job was as commander of the Navy. So he is also the former commander of the Navy. He is a career-long military officer who has served all over Canada, but also overseas as well, commanding Canadian warships. Okay. And can you fill me in on the background of this story? How did this whole thing get started? Well, it goes back a few years to when there was a devastating fire aboard one of the Navy's supply ships. The HMCS Protector is once again on its way to Hawaii this morning.

A fire broke out in the engine room on Thursday and disabled the CFB Esquimalt-based supply ship. An absolute worst-case scenario, as I've talked about. You had a major main space fire on a tanker in the middle of the ocean in the middle of the night with no electricity. And that meant that the Navy had to retire its supply ships early. In steps the Davies shipyard in Quebec with a proposal to the federal government where it would convert a civilian supply ship for military grade. The former Conservative government began negotiating in 2015, early 2015, with Davie to be able to provide that. Some of you may actually be missing the point here, which is the government has decided to accelerate this process by identifying one possible naval shipyard to provide this capability

and not to spend an enormous amount of time, red tape. And just before the last federal election, the Conservatives signed a deal with Davy, but it was a preliminary agreement that required some details that still had to be worked out. And of course, we all know that the election of October 2015 brought the Liberals into power. but it was a preliminary agreement that required some details that still had to be worked out. And of course, we all know that the election of October 2015 brought the Liberals into power. A September campaign promise at a stop in Halifax, Justin Trudeau said a Liberal government would opt out of the F-35 jet fighter program to ensure the Navy gets what it needs. We will be able to guarantee the delivery of current procurements for the Navy.

We will keep those promises. So one of the very first things the Liberal government had to do was consider whether or not to continue leasing the supply ship, which was worth about $700 million, anywhere between $650 to $750 million. And that was a really important decision. About $700 million, anywhere between $650 to $750 million. And that was a really important decision. It was the first major procurement decision that the Liberal government had to make. And what did they decide to do? Well, what the Liberal government decided to do on the 19th of November 2015 was to put the program on hold because they had a bunch of questions about it.

At least that's what they were telling us at the time. Okay. And what kind of questions might they have about this? I mean, it sounds like there is a pretty straightforward deal to get the Navy the supply ship that they wanted. Yeah, but it wasn't necessarily all that straightforward. The Conservative government, in order to make this deal happen, had to change the cabinet sole source regulations. That, I am told by a number of people on the inside, was a red flag. So the idea here being that this contract to get the supply ship was sole source. They didn't ask any other companies if they wanted to bid on it. That is correct. And what they did do is they asked other companies out of fairness to say, hey, you got any ideas out there?

And there were some proposals that were put in, but it was nothing official. The former conservative government went basically straight to Davey and negotiated a sole source contract. OK. And then when the liberals get in power, they're like, hey, wait a second. Maybe this isn't so fair. That's right. OK. And so the idea that they were going to put the project on hold leaked. That's how this whole thing started. And so it leaked in the media. There are reports that the liberals are going to put this project on hold. And what happens then? What's the effect of these leaks? Well, internally, there was a suitcase-sized nuclear explosion that took place

within the prime minister's office. There was a departmental investigation as to how could this information have gotten out. And then eventually the RCMP were called in to conduct an investigation in early 2016. And why was there this suitcase-sized explosion in the prime minister's office? There's leaks all the time in government. Well, if you look at some of the court transcripts of interviews that were done with federal cabinet ministers, the major concern was that having that information out in public at that time put a lot of pressure on the government to actually proceed with the deal without looking at it, without reviewing it, rubber stamp it, and away

you go. That was one of the major bones of contention. Why would that information, the fact that the Liberal government had put this on hold to ask more questions, have put a lot of pressure on them to just rubber stamp the deal that the Conservatives started? Well, because at the time, the government had until the end of November to approve the deal. If not, the government faced, I believe it was an $89 million penalty from the Davie shipyard. So it was really a high stakes decision that had to be made. And the government was furious. I can say to you that in dealing with people around that time and writing stories about this particular deal, the reaction of both staff at Public Works, at National Defense around it, the Navy needs a supply ship several years ago. And the Conservatives decide that they're going to give the deal to get the supply ship to this one company in Quebec.

And the Liberals come into power and they say, look, this is a sole source deal. We have a lot of questions around this. We're going to put this on hold for a bit, that information that they put it on hold gets leaked in the media. And people in the prime minister's office are very angry about this because it puts even greater pressure on them to deal with this, in part because if they don't go through with this deal, they're going to have to pay an $89 million fine. That's correct. Okay. And where does Mark Norman come in here? As the RCMP begins its investigation, and this is all clear in the court records, Admiral Norman's name surfaces again and again with people and within documents the RCMP uncover as they're going along. And very quickly within 2016, they begin to focus their investigation on Vice Admiral Norman.

And they eventually come to the conclusion they believe that he was that leak. That is correct. And as you mentioned before, they charge him with breach of trust. And they are alleging that there were 12 separate incidents where he leaked cabinet confidences or cabinet secrets to both an executive at the Davies shipyard and a CBC journalist. OK. Murray, before we get to the actual defense, Mark Norman's defense, is it normal for somebody to get charged with leaking information to the media? Is this common? No. It seems extraordinary to me.

It is absolutely extraordinary. federal politics for 20 some odd years. And I have only ever seen one civil servant basically taken away in irons for allegedly leaking material. You often get internal investigations as to how information got out. You often get RCMP investigations into the leaking of cabinet material, it's exceptionally unusual to have someone charged. Right. Leaks are very common, especially in Ottawa. Okay, so now let's get to the case and Mark Norman's defense. He was relieved last June of his duty, and then a pretrial started happening for his breach of trust charge.

I'm anxious to get to court, get this dealt with as quickly as possible and get back to serving the people of Canada. Thank you very much. We're not going to be making any other statements. And right away, there were accusations of political interference by opposition parties. And why? What's playing out here? Well, the accusations of political interference started with Vice Admiral Norman's lawyer in court records that were filed last October. Now, there are two layers of alleged political interference here. The first layer, former Treasury Board President Scott Bryson allegedly interfered in the negotiations or the cabinet discussions around whether or not the lease deal should proceed. Okay. And how did he allegedly interfere? The defense alleges and

claims that he was acting on behalf of a rival shipyard that wanted to get a chance to put a formal bid in on the lease project. Okay. And this is the Irvings that we're talking about here, right? Very powerful family in Atlantic Canada that owns a shipbuilding enterprise. That is correct. Irving's telling the government it's the best choice to deliver a badly needed supply vessel. We are not interested in delaying vital critical capability to the Royal Canadian Navy. We know they need this capability, but we think we have a better, faster, less expensive alternative with much less conversion risk.

Mr. Bryson and the Irvings have denied that there was any attempt at political influence. Okay. And Scott Bryson, I should mention, he resigned from cabinet late last year, and a lot of people were asking if this had something to do with Mark Norman. And what does he say about that? There was a lot of speculation about that, but Mr. Bryson has said that he left cabinet because he'd been in federal politics for a very long time and wanted to spend more time with his family. That is what was told to us. Are you leaving because of what may come out in that trial?

Absolutely not. That's a non-factor. That's a matter between the prosecution and Vice Admiral Norman. This is a family decision, and my family come first. Okay, so we've got this first layer of political interference allegations that Scott Bryson was essentially working at the behest of a rival ship building company. And what is the second layer of how the Privy Council office, which supports the prime minister's office and does work and does the bidding of the prime minister's office and controls the bureaucracy. The allegation is that the Privy Council office was directing the prosecution of Vice Admiral Norman. This is a really explosive allegation. Sounds familiar. Well, it does.

And you see, when you compare it to what was going on with SNC-Lavalin, in the case of SNC-Lavalin, it suggested that a minister of the crown was leaned upon to make the public prosecution service change its mind on something. In this case, the allegations are much more direct. It's direct from PCO into the public prosecution service. Now, of course, PCO and the Public Prosecution Service deny that there was any influence that was leveraged and they denied that there is an which is essentially the office of the prime minister, was pushing for Vice Admiral Mark Norman to be charged in this case. The implication there being that he embarrassed the liberals so much around their decision to put this contract on hold. Yes. this contract on hold. Yes. And so I should note that Mark Norman's lawyer is Marie Hennin, and a lot of people will know her as Gian Gomeschi's lawyer. And is it fair to say that she's adding sort of an extra layer of profile to this whole affair? It's quite an

extraordinary prosecution where really the complainant's deciding what we get to look at, what's important and what's not. We've asked for a full waiver of cabinet confidence so that we can defend this case and so that we can see the full story. And that waiver still isn't forthcoming. Well, she has certainly added legal star power, if I can put it that way. But it has been fascinating to watch her perform in court and the precision with which she has taken apart various government lawyers' arguments. It's been fascinating to watch. We'll be back in a whole new way, where stories are brought to life by powerful performances from renowned actors and narrators. With the free Audible app,

you can listen anytime, anywhere, whether you're at home, in the car, or out on a jog. The first 30 days of the Audible membership are free, including a free book. Go to www.audible.ca slash cbc to learn more. There's another piece of news,

and I'm trying to figure out if these are connected. I'm hoping that you can help me, because the Conservatives are talking about it a lot. Last week, some news broke in this case. A Liberal MP named Andrew Leslie decided not to run for re-election. And it came out last year that Leslie had offered to be a witness in the Norman case. So is there a connection between these two things, him possibly being a witness and also deciding to not run for re-election? We've not had enough evidence to suggest that this was one of the reasons that he decided not to run for re-election. It's speculation by the Conservatives. It's speculation

throughout all of the parlours here in Ottawa. Thankfully, there is a Liberal who has had enough of the Prime Minister's lack of integrity. The Liberal member for Orleans is going to testify on Norman's behalf. Will the Prime Minister stop this obstruction and release all of the relevant documents immediately? Mr. Speaker, I can report to the honourable member that the Department of Justice has cooperated and given all appropriate documents to the trial in question. What we do know is that he did volunteer last year and let the prime minister's office know this,

that he would be willing to appear as a defense witness for Vice Admiral Norman. Okay. So it is conceivable that before the next election, we could see a liberal MP testifying against the liberal government, even though we don't know what he might say. intimate knowledge potentially of what kind of things were being said behind closed doors by the Liberal government about this case. A former Liberal cabinet minister may have been working at the behest of a rival shipbuilding enterprise, everything we've been talking about for the last several months, the independence of prosecutorial judgment. And we've got a Liberal MP who's just quit and will not be running in the next election. And we have no idea what he could possibly say here, but he has put his hand up to testify on behalf of Admiral Mark Norman, and he is in a position to know a lot of stuff. Am I right here?

You're right. Okay. So why hasn't this story been a bigger deal? Why hasn't it blown up like SNC-Lavalin? It's a complicated story. There are a lot of moving parts. There are a lot of different players. It's a complicated story. There are a lot of moving parts. There are a lot of different players. Procurement is not necessarily the sexiest topic. In the case of the SNC-Lavalin scandal, it involved power, it involved a cabinet minister, it involved many things that are near and dear to the Liberal government. I come from a long line of matriarchs, and I'm a truth teller, in accordance with the laws and traditions of our big house. I know nobody in here wants to have to pick who to believe between Jody Wilson-Raybould and Chrystia Freeland. Right, the narratives of the feminist prime minister sort of pitted against a female cabinet minister.

Exactly, and that is one of the reasons... Sexier than procurement? sort of pitted against a female cabinet minister. Exactly. And that is one of the reasons. Sexier than procurement? Yes. Yeah, well, it's really tough to pitch procurement stories. Trust me. I've been doing it for a long time. No, we're going to do it. This is going to be a great procurement podcast.

But no, it is an exceptionally complicated story. The other thing, too, I think, is because this has been dragging on for a few years now. And, I mean, Admiral Norman's name came up as a suspect when he was suspended from his duties in January of 2017. And, I mean, this was big news in the spring of 2017. Right. And I mean, this was big news in the spring of 2017. Right. And the fact that it's been in court and they're fighting over documents and they're talking about, you know, cabinet secrets and privilege and all these sorts of things. It's just not something that has captured the imagination of the public. OK, fair.

Lots of legalese here, incremental developments. There are other big stories to follow. But I want to talk to you about what you think could happen here. So when Andrew Scheer gets up at the press dinner, and he says that SNC-Lavalin was really just a dry run for the Mark Norman trial. Mr. Trudeau could view it as a good dry run for the Mark Norman trial. Do you think he has a point here? Could this blow up? are much more severe than they were in SNC-Lavalin. That is, if those allegations can be proven. But also, too, there's the political spectacle. You're going to have a former member of the Liberal government, a former parliamentary secretary, testifying on behalf of someone who is accused of leaking cabinet secrets. You could also potentially have former cabinet minister Scott Bryson called to the stand on behalf of the crown. You could have former defense minister Peter McKay called

to the stand on behalf of the crown. Both of those names are on the crown's preliminary witness list. So this could end up being one huge political circus. Well, Murray, I hope that you will come back on the podcast if and when that happens and take us through it again. Good stuff. Thank you so much. So as I mentioned at the top of the show, there were a bunch of jokes told at the annual press gallery dinner in Ottawa this past weekend.

Well, before we let you go today, and for your listening pleasure, here are some of the best ones, or at least what passes for best jokes in a room full of politicians. Unsolicited texts are never welcome. Just ask Tony Clement. I didn't put a lot of effort into this tonight. I'm working very hard on my climate change plan. I should have said who accused whom of white supremacy. But screw it. I'll just blame Scott Bryson later.

These are all just jokes. Just jokes. Please don't sue me. But in the words of a third of my caucus, I'm out of here. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog.

She names it Gay Girl in Damascus. Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger. The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now.