Front Burner - How to get tough with the unvaccinated

Episode Date: August 9, 2021

As a potential COVID-19 fourth wave looms, epidemiologist Raywat Deonandan talks to guest host Jonathan Montpetit about frustrations with those who have opted out of a COVID-19 vaccine thus far, and options for getting tougher on their access to public spaces.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jonathan Mopetze, sitting in for Jamie Poisson. Hello, I'm Jonathan Mopetzi, sitting in for Jamie Poisson. Samantha Diamond is a co-owner of a salon in Montreal, where she also works as a hairstylist. And she says that COVID-19 vaccination, well, it comes up in conversation a fair bit at work.

It's just something we're talking about. You know, I went here, I went there. This is my experience. These with my secondary effects I had or this type of. And so I made a reference to something to a client with whom I was having a nice back and forth. And she paused. And then she says, you know, I'm just waiting. I just want to see. I'm not sure. And I didn't say anything. I just let her talk because it's hard to know how to react. But then she said, she's moved to this

isolated area. And she said, well, I'm not really seeing people. And then I said, well, you're seeing me right now. I'm in a profession where I don't want to alienate people. And I don't want this. I don't want her to feel uncomfortable. But at the same time, I I'm present. I'm a human being who's present. And and what she's doing does affect me. Today on FrontBurner, as the threat of a fourth wave of the pandemic looms over Canada, we're going to be talking about the frustration some vaccinated people are starting to feel with those who have made the choice not to get a COVID-19 vaccine

and possible options for getting tougher with that group. To help tackle this subject, friend of the show, Rehwat Dianandan is here. He's an epidemiologist at the University of Ottawa. Hi, Rehwat. Thanks so much for being with us. It is my pleasure as always. You can hear the frustration Samantha is feeling there at her salon. And I wonder if that frustration is something that you're hearing from others more broadly.

Absolutely. Even in my own personal life, we struggle to get a massage therapist who was vaccinated. You'd think that would be easy, but it was actually quite difficult. We're struggling right now to find a daycare with guaranteed vaccination for all its staff. These are interesting challenges that we didn't think we'd come across at this stage in the pandemic. And so I'm totally simpatico with the people who are feeling some frustration on this front. Where do you think that frustration is coming from?

It's coming from the realization that at this stage in the pandemic, we have solutions. We have some very good solutions, vaccination prime among them. And yet there still remains a segment of society that will not accept that solution and kind of wants the remaining segment to do the heavy lifting to get COVID under control. So it feels fundamentally unjust and unfair for those of us who've accepted vaccination. Very well. There's been a real focus on showing compassion for people who haven't been vaccinated, figuring out how to persuade them to get the vaccine on their own. And we've also talked about the importance of making vaccines as available and convenient as possible. But we are also starting now to see some actions that are firmer, more stick than carrot, because after all, while Canada's vaccination rates are really impressive, still about 20 percent of eligible Canadians don't have a single dose.

So the big one that stands out to me is Quebec announcing last week that proof of vaccination will soon be required to access non-essential services such as gyms and restaurants. We'll put in place the passport in order that people who made the efforts to be vaccinated, that they are able to come back to a normal life. What do you think of that move? This is, of course, the dreaded vaccine passport, which is misnamed, of course. It's a vaccine certificate. There's no travel across the border involved here. I think it's unavoidable as a policy tool if you are serious about keeping institutions and society open while transmission is still high. And places around the world have shown us that it works. In Israel, famously, it worked until they let it slip and the cases went up again, and now they're reinstituting it again.

In New York, it's about to start as well. So the challenge, of course, is balancing the effectiveness, the undeniable effectiveness of this tool against its representation as a challenge to civil liberties. And so we have to do this dance a bit delicately and to point out how, in fact, it's not unethical and it's not denying service to people. It's just giving businesses and institutions a tool to stay open. So for you, they're like there are no red flags here as Quebec and possibly some other provinces go forward with vaccine certificates. Well, there's always going to be red flags. Look, I'm a non-white immigrant to this country. I'm sensitive to the idea of having to produce documentation to show my papers to the authorities. That's not a fun thing to do in a liberal democracy, and it should not be tolerated

in the long run. So a vaccine certificate has to be a short-term tool to accelerate the opening of society. It cannot be allowed to remain on the books for months on end, and it cannot be allowed to be a bridge to a dictatorship, as some commentators are suggesting right now. But there is precedent for this. We have other elements in society where public health steps in and is a bit draconian. For example, I'm not allowed to drive above the speed limit, even though I can, and I'm quite safe in doing so to a certain limit. But there comes a time when each of us has to curtail our personal liberties for the common good. But it's important that that be balanced against the opportunity for those who are ineligible for that

level of curtailment to still access services. So again, it's a balancing act. The red flags have to be this massaging of the messaging to make sure it is not framed in an authoritarian way. And so people understand it is a short term solution. You know, I should just point out that hours after Premier Legault announced that Quebec was going forward with a vaccine certificate program, the number of registrations for vaccine appointments double just in a span of hours. Is that a sign to you that this is an effective public policy tool? Absolutely it is. We can categorize the unvaccinated into a variety of groups. First, they're the hardcore anti-vaxxers for whom this is a kind of religion, and I'm not really sure

how to reach them. These kinds of policies may just infuriate them and drive them deeper into their corner. There are the vaccine hesitant, who need some better understanding of the risk versus rewards and the safety and to be able to navigate the misinformation that's all around us. And for them, I have a lot of time. There are the apathetic, who have nothing against vaccine, but it's not a priority for them right now, or they feel that their personal fitness level and their personal level of immunity doesn't warrant vaccination. Then there are those who want to get vaccinated, but they face all kinds of barriers, like they can't get time off work. Then there are those who are simply ineligible, like kids under 12 right now. So the thing about a vaccine certificate or passport, if you want to call that, it really targets the apathetic. So those who have nothing against vaccination, but just didn't call it that, it really targets the apathetic. So those

who have nothing against vaccination, but just didn't make it a priority in their lives, now it becomes a priority. And that, to my mind, is a fairly large segment of the vaccine-resistant population. And that's why this tool can be so effective. Look, there's been a lot of talk about vaccinations in schools, especially with September just around the corner. Do you think children, those over 12, should have to get a COVID-19 vaccine to attend school? I personally do not think the time is right to make that compulsory right now for that particular demographic. And here's why. In Ontario, for example, we already have nine vaccines that are compulsory to attend school. So there isn't a lack of precedent for this. And eventually, I think a COVID vaccine will be compulsory. But right now, given the high levels of resistance

from parents, I think you end up driving those parents into the arms of the hardcore anti-vaxxers. You end up really making the job harder down the road. So I think making this compulsory does more damage than good right now. In the future, it might be the time. So right now, I think we have to cajole and educate and incentivize parents of kids to consider vaccination and wrap schools around with all kinds of public health assets to make sure that transmission is low, if not zero, in schools. Okay. So you're against the idea of requiring students to get vaccines, but what about teachers? Oh, I think they should totally be compelled to get vaccinated. And here's why. Professions are not a constitutionally protected group. Each of us, I feel, has a right to bodily integrity and autonomy.

I'm not a lawyer, I can't say that's so for sure, but philosophically it makes sense that in a liberal democracy we should not be compelled to inject something into our bodies we don't want. On the other hand, none of us has a right to the job that we have. If your job requires a vaccination and you don't want one, well, get another job. In some parts of the world, like some US states, what they do is they make people who don't want the vaccination, like healthcare providers or teachers even, jump through some extra hoops. Like you got to get tested a couple of times a week,

maybe at your own expense. So you make it a little difficult for them and nudge them slowly into the vaccination camp. We don't have time for that right now. That's a long-term strategy that's worked in public health for things like the anti-smoking campaign, but the time frame here is really quite compressed. We're talking weeks or months to get this under control. So we must make some professions mandatorily, if that's a word, mandatorily vaccinated. And that includes healthcare workers, transit workers, first responders, and I'm sorry to say teachers. Talk to me a little bit more about that time frame and why you think that we need to start thinking about this, like, you know, kind of in terms of an urgency that, you know, the time is no longer on our side here. Yeah. So the reason we have a fourth wave,

we're looking down the we have a fourth wave, or we're looking down the barrel of a fourth wave, is that we have a large susceptible population. Who is susceptible? People who are not immune. Who are not immune? People who have not recovered from this disease and people who have not been vaccinated. And there's no reason right now, if you haven't been vaccinated, to not be vaccinated

unless you've got an allergy to one of the vaccine components. And that's a very tiny number of people in this province. So given the size of the susceptible population, the likelihood of a fourth wave is good, and the likelihood of a strain on our healthcare system is also quite good. So we have to get that number down as quickly as we can to avoid the likely burst of cases coming our way that will again put a strain on society. So there is another soft deadline, if I can put it that way, when kids under 12 become eligible for vaccination. Then suddenly our chances of genuine herd immunity go up. Until then,

we haven't got the numbers of people to get to a herd immunity conversation. That means we've got to get as close as we can by vaccination and deploy other mitigation tools like mask wearing to get us over that last hump to get this under control. That's why if you can get vaccinated, you absolutely should get vaccinated. And if you're in a position where you're exposing yourself to a lot of potentially vulnerable people like unvaccinated children or immunocompromised people, I think it's in society's best interest right now to compel those people to be safe. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization,

empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. A lot of these points of friction are happening in workplace settings. And I want to tell you a quick story from Jacob Wharton Shuckster, who owns a restaurant in Toronto. Because there is no formal vaccine mandate in Ontario, he thought about taking a small step on his own,

vaccine mandate in Ontario, he thought about taking a small step on his own, leaving the outdoor patio open to everyone while inviting only vaccinated people to sit indoors at the bar. But he got some extreme blowback for it. We're talking zero-star reviews, no-shows from fake reservations, and some very extreme comparisons online. Being told that this medical apartheid, which is like completely offensive, it's like telling black people to sit at the back of the bus. Like these are really offensive, offensive things. And they're completely not fair arguments. And Jacob says he doesn't really blame the people who trolled him. He blames the governments who are leaving these decisions up to him.

This isn't my area of specialization. It's just like I'm a restaurant person. This is why we shouldn't be the ones making these public health decisions. Rewat, I'm wondering what you make of that argument that leaving the onus on individual business owners puts them in a really tough spot. It's a great observation. I think the state's job is to be the bad guy. I understand the government's position and perspective on this. There's an economic argument that if you make

the vaccine certificate available and then leave it to the institutions to decide whether or not to use them and how to use them, then market forces will compel businesses to leave unvaccinated people outside because they're going to be the minority every day. There are fewer and fewer of them. So no business wants to exclude the majority of potential customers. That's a long-term economic solution driven by market forces, but it ignores the human element, the derision, the division, and the hate that comes of this, as this individual has observed.

So my position is it must be the state's job to don the cloak of this, as this individual has observed. So my position is it must be the state's job to don the cloak of evil, to be the bad guy, to accept the hate. That's why you're elected at this point. If we leave it up to individual businesses, we're requiring of them not just rational decision-making, but courage. And it's difficult to acquire and to express this kind of courage, given the amount of vitriol circulating right now. I totally get this person's position. When you hear the extreme blowback that Jacob faced for just proposing a policy for his own private business, I wonder if you think that there's a risk that any kind of attempt to push a bit harder to get people vaccinated

will just further alienate those who oppose and further entrench their opposition. There's always going to be a little bit of that. That's why I'm currently opposed to making vaccination compulsory for children because you will alienate a fairly large constituent of parents who are quite concerned about their children. But when I think about this situation, I look at Israel. Israel used the Green Pass earlier this year, and their Green Pass requires people to provide evidence of vaccination or recovery from

the disease or a recent negative swab test before they gain entry into a facility of some kind. And I got back to why that's important in a second. But what Israel found was that it was well enforced early on, then it became informally enforced as people just went along with it. Then as the case numbers dropped, it just fell by the wayside. People just naturally stopped using it. So the passes have a lifespan of their own, hence they will not be part of everyday democratic experience. But including that negative swab test as one of the options that gets you in the door is critical here. Absent that, you are simply saying that a segment of society will never have access to these services. That is not what we're saying. We're saying if you have not been vaccinated or have not acquired immunity elsewhere,

you must now go through a couple of extra steps. The restaurant is not denied you, the gym is not denied you, the bus is not denied to you. All you have to do is take a couple of extra steps. That's critical to making this slide into authoritarianism. Before we sign off, I was hoping we could touch quickly on the political viability of these moves. In Ontario, Premier Doug Ford has repeatedly stated that he would not make the vaccine mandatory for anyone. I just don't believe in forcing anyone to get a vaccination that doesn't want it. The answer is no, we aren't going to do it. We aren't going to have a split society. But then last week, there was a bit of a flap when Ontario NDP leader Andrea Horvath

initially implied that she was opposed to mandating vaccines for health and education workers, something the Ontario Liberals have been calling for. Unlike Mr. Del Duca, I don't take lightly people's charter rights. And so that's why what we're saying is rapid tests or your vaccination status and being vaccinated. But then she very quickly backtracked on that. I fully support mandatory vaccination in health care and education based on science and public health priorities. I should have made that position clearer much

earlier. What does that tell you about the political calculations and the political at will at play here? I think our political leaders are gauging the attitudes of their constituents. Unfortunately, what we're seeing is our leaders are backing into the ideological corners from which they arose. That's unfortunate. It should be driven by the science, and the science says that these strategies work. And what is the overall goal here? The goal is to get us back to an economic and lifestyle normal as quickly as we can and as sustainably as we can. This tool gets us there. So what does it mean for our political leaders? It means that if they really want to be seen on the winning side of this from the lens of history several years from now, guess what? Those who get vaccinated are going to be the majority.

They're going to be most of the voters. They're going to be the people who wanted to get out of this mess faster, right? So I think it's ultimately a losing strategy to, at the very least, not even actively consider a strategy, a tool, a policy option like this, which gets us back to normal fastest. Rewa, thanks so much for joining us and walking us through these issues.

My pleasure. I love this show. The Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games have come to a close. In these difficult times, you give the world the most precious of gifts. Hope. Canada's first Olympic decathlon champion, Damien Warner, was the country's flag bearer at the closing ceremonies. His win was just one of many highlights for Team Canada, which came away with 24 medals, 7 gold, 6 silver, and 11 bronze. Despite the challenges brought on

by the pandemic, Canadian athletes had one of their best summer games ever. The only time that Canada won more medals was at the 1984 Boycotted Olympics. That's it for today. I'm John Mopetzi sitting in for Jamie Poisson. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.