Front Burner - How Viktor Orbán is reshaping Hungary

Episode Date: April 6, 2022

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán and his Fidesz party won their fourth consecutive victory in Sunday’s election, even after a historic effort by opposition parties to come together and defeat the autocratic leader. Today, Justin Spike, Budapest Correspondent for the Associated Press, explains how Orbán has held onto power, changed Hungary, and what his latest victory could mean for the future.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. We want a victory so big that you can see it from the moon, and you can certainly see it from Brussels.

On Sunday night, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán took the stage to claim his fourth victory in a row, even after a historic effort by opposition parties to come together and defeat him. The autocratic leader won another supermajority in a country where he's gerrymandered voting boundaries and controls large swaths of the media. and controls large swaths of the media. He's been resisting sanctions on Russian oil and gas while war rages in Ukraine, not to mention his push against LGBTQ rights and his past crackdowns on refugees. And yet, he says, he's just become the model for the rest of Europe.

The whole world has seen tonight in Budapest that Christian democratic politics, conservative civic politics and patriotic politics have won. We are telling Europe that this is not the past, this is the future. Today I am joined by Justin Spike, Budapest correspondent for the Associated Press. He's just spent some very long nights covering this election, and he's going to explain what this Ironman autocrat's grip on power could mean for the future of the country. Hey, Justin, thanks so much for being here. Hi there. Thank you very much for having me. To sort of introduce Orban here, I want to compare the Orban of the 1980s with the Orban of today.

In the dying years of the Soviet Union, I know that Orban gave this really famous speech. I know that Orbán gave this really famous speech for democracy as a liberal student activist at the time. And how does that compare to the Orbán that we see today? Yes, Viktor Orbán really started his political career in the mid-1980s as a liberal anti-communist, self-styled revolutionary, rather as an activist. So in that speech that you mentioned in 1989, he stood before hundreds of thousands of people on Heroes Square here in Budapest and demanded the withdrawal of Soviet troops, which had been occupying the country for over 40 years. Soviet troops which had been occupying the country for over 40 years. So that's really how he made his mark, his initial mark on Hungarian politics.

In the years that followed, he moved slightly to the right, being an anti-communist. He always had a bit of a conservative streak in his politics, but he was a politician who was really looking towards Europe and saw the future of Hungary on the European continent, in the European community, and ultimately as a part of the European Union. He was first elected prime minister in 1998 in Hungary, and he served four years, but then lost an election unexpectedly in 2002 to the socialists. A lot of people think that Viktor Orban's big turn, the distinct political turn that he made, came after that loss in 2002.

And I think he saw in Hungarian society a gap or sort of a vacuum in conservative politics that he was keen to try and fill. So he lost the elections after that and finally came back into power in 2010. Today Hungarians voted for themselves and for their future. They voted for Hungary and for its future. They voted and they have won. Today Hungarian voters have put hopelessness behind them. And that's when things really started getting interesting here in Hungary.

He's been in power now for 12 years, just won his fourth consecutive term in office. And in those 12 years, he's done a lot to seize control of Hungary's media. He's really cracked down on civic organizations, NGOs, and has really seized control of a lot of Hungarian public life. And so a lot of analysts and people who knew Orbán in his younger years believe that when he lost that election in 2002, it was a real breaking point for him. And he realized that if he were ever to come back into power again, he would never allow the kinds of voices which had led to his failure to best him again.

And that's why he worked so hard in the last 12 years to take over the media and to pack so many segments of the government with his loyalists to ensure the perpetuity of his power. Right, right. And talking about packing the government with his loyalists, I've heard a lot about corruption under Orban. with his loyalists, I've heard a lot about corruption under Orban, like his friends getting rich and streets literally going dark because of like shady streetlight contracts. So can you tell me a little bit more about how the corruption has transformed society in Hungary? What Orban and his political movement and his system have done is to create sort of a new class of Hungarian capitalists who have re-bought a lot of some of the assets, which were state assets in the communist period, and then were sold off in sort of this clearinghouse atmosphere in Eastern Europe in the 1990s to Western capital.

So how that's looked is that Orbán's government writes out public procurement contracts to companies owned by some of these allies of his who are businessmen, and they do these contracts for large sums of money, and then they've managed to pile up unimaginable wealth. In the village where Viktor Orbán was born, there's a smart new football stadium, just a stone's throw from the prime minister's weekend home. The stadium is the first stop on a vintage train ride stadium, just a stone's throw from the prime minister's weekend home. The stadium is the first stop on a vintage train ride that also takes in an arboretum

and a pleasant ice cream shop. The train line and the stadium were built, say anti-corruption activists, using public money with construction contracts awarded to well-connected businessmen, part of an elite that's grown rich through its proximity to power. The purpose of creating this class of Hungarian capitalists who are allied with the prime minister is really twofold. As I mentioned before, he really wanted to bring a lot of capital and bring a lot of industry back into Hungarian hands. But on the other hand, he's been able to really secure a lot of the support of Hungary's business elite by enriching them in this way.

And in so doing, really having access to large amounts of capital, which he might not otherwise have access to if it were to remain in hands which were disloyal to him or remain over the media before. How has that funneling of money impacted the media, the media landscape? been a part of that process. Allies of the prime minister have bought up huge portions of Hungary's media landscape. And when people talk about crackdowns on the media in Hungary, they shouldn't have the impression that the journalists are being jailed or attacked. That's not the situation we have here when we talk about media freedom. Rather, what's happening is that for independent journalists to be able to have a place to work has been made very difficult in the last 12 years because of a completely distorted media system whereby formerly critical outlets were bought up by pro-government businessmen and slowly over time that influence has seeped into the newsrooms and the quality of the news reportage has transformed entirely. And it's not only the

commercial media, the state media in Hungary has also been taken over entirely by Orbán's government. With Orbán loyalists filling those positions, essentially the public media is able to act as a government mouthpiece and use state resources, and not just a little, but large state resources, financial resources to push out the messaging of the Orban government on the radio and on television, which actively campaigned, for example, in this last election campaign for Orban and his party and smeared the opposition coalition, which was trying to unseat Orban at every opportunity. Can you talk to me about the electoral map itself?

How have the lines that divide the constituencies changed under Orban? So in 2011, after Orban's government re-entered power, they set to work transforming a lot of state institutions. They rewrote the constitution of Hungary and passed it in parliament unilaterally. And they transformed the electoral map, as you mentioned, gerrymandering Hungary's electoral districts, but they also reduced the number of electoral districts and the number of seats in parliament. And so the effect that that had was really to sort of split, as you have gerrymandering as well, in, for example, the United States, it's well known that this is a strategy that political parties there use. They were able to sort of split urban areas,

which were sort of more of a mixed bag of voters, many of which would have voted for the socialist or liberal or left parties, and split them up and connect them with larger areas out in the countryside, which tend to swing more conservative. And that has managed to sort of reduce the power of liberal voters in those areas. That said, though, given the result of the election that we had just on Sunday. We have to ask the Lord how it happened that we won the biggest victory when everyone joined forces against us. It appears that the scope of the victory that Orbán was able to win in this election cannot be explained only by things like gerrymandering of the electoral map. But that was something that started a process back in 2011, which has continued to this day. I do want to talk about his social policy. How has Orban gone after minority groups and refugees in the country?

A really striking feature of Orban's political system here in Hungary is that there's always an enemy of some kind against which he is keen to position himself as the sole defender against of the Hungarian people. So this really kicked into high gear in 2013 and 14 when Orban's government went after NGOs, non-governmental organizations, civic organizations here in Hungary, arguing that they were unelected activists who were trying to sort of interfere and intervene in Hungary's internal politics. Some of them, of course, receiving money from abroad from the billionaire financier George Soros, who is Hungarian by origin. Orbán has really gone after Soros as a source of undue and unwelcome interference

in Hungarian public life through his activities, through the non-governmental organizations which he's involved with. And then after that, in 2015, when there was the refugee crisis in Europe, over a million refugees coming mostly from Syria and Iraq in that year. And when that happened, Orban tried to turn the crisis into some sort of a political asset for himself and campaigned very heavily on keeping migrants out of Hungary, keeping refugees and asylum seekers out of Hungary and refusing to settle them and to grant asylum applications or to accept asylum seekers from other European countries. So this really became a central part of Orban's political campaigning.

The refugees were portrayed as an external enemy coming from abroad, Muslims, brown-skinned people who were set and intent on invading Hungary and changing its fundamental culture, changing its Christian roots. And he portrayed it as a process from which there would be no turning back. And in a country like Hungary, which is largely rural, where a lot of people have very little exposure to people from other countries and certainly not from distant places like the Middle East or Africa. This message really resonated and it was beamed into every household through Orbán's media empire, where they depicted the refugees and migrants as violent, as rapists and as people against whom it was essential that Orbán defend the people. against whom it was essential that Orban defend the people.

Hungary's open doors to Ukrainians is in stark contrast to the Syrian refugee crisis in 2015. Back then, razor wire fences were installed along the country's southern border with Serbia, all in an effort to block thousands who were trying to get in. What about LGBTQ issues? What has Orban's stance on LGBTQ issues been? So similarly to George Soros and the NGOs and the migrants, LGBTQ people have really come into the sights of Orban's government in recent months. Before the war in Ukraine began,

it appeared clear that the main focus of Orbán's campaign for this election was going to be defending Hungary from what he calls the LGBTQ lobby. So he's really pushed this idea that activists, LGBTQ activists, are aiming to enter Hungarian schools to spread what he calls LGBTQ propaganda. And this all culminated in a law passed last year, which basically declared that it was illegal to target children with information or media content, which, quote unquote, promoted homosexuality or gender change. It may look like a celebration, but this is a march of defiance.

The LGBT community here in Hungary has long felt under attack, but the government's enactment of a new sex education law has galvanized activists. Organizers say the crowd at this year's Budapest Pride March was the biggest in its history. There was a big backlash to this in the European Union. The bloc has threatened to withhold billions of dollars in post-pandemic recovery funding. Ersla von der Leyen is president of the European Commission. Europe will never allow parts of our society to be stigmatized, be it because of whom they love, because of their age. And in response, Orban's government decided to hold a referendum on the law which they had already

passed and was already on the books. There were four questions, very skewed questions like, do you agree with the promotion of gender change in children? Fortunately for the opposition, not enough people voted on that. So the outcome is non-binding. But still the government trumpeted it as a great mandate to maintain its so-called child protection policies because the vast majority of those who did vote

sided with the government. Episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and

podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Cops. One thing I'm curious about is that conservatives and figures from the far right in North America, they often praise Orban, right? Including former Trump strategist Steve Bannon and Fox News host Tucker Carlson, who's interviewed him. I've noticed in the last few nights in Budapest, I've run into a number of Americans who have come here because they want to be around people who agree with them, who agree with you. Do you see Budapest as a kind of capital of this kind of thinking? It is because the other Central European countries are also very competitive and producing very nice ideas and organizing that kind of communities of conservative and Christian Democrats. Why do you think Orbán has become this hero of the international right? I think that Orbán's appeal to the right, especially in North America, has a lot to do with a misunderstanding of how Hungarian society is organized and what life is really like here. So as you mentioned, Tucker Carlson visited Hungary

last summer. He spent an entire week here broadcasting from Budapest. He went down to tour the razor wire fence at the southern border, and he was very pleased with what he saw. When illegal aliens arrive at the Hungarian border now, they are photographed and then they're politely escorted back across the line. The whole process takes about half an hour. It is the most civilized thing we have seen in years. And as we watched it, we thought to ourselves, why can't we have this in America? He thought that Hungary was a very orderly, clean and idyllic place. And he feels that Orbán has the courage to really serve his people because he cares about his people.

Now, I think a lot of that has to do with Orbán's family policies. The Orbán government has given out a lot of resources to families with children. out a lot of resources to families with children. The benefits include a lifetime personal income tax exemption for women who give birth to and raise at least four children. To really promote the nuclear family in Hungary as they try to reduce the divorce rate, up the birth rate and replace the declining population with a burgeoning population of Hungarians and not of migrants. We are living in times when there are fewer and fewer children born in Europe.

For the West, the answer to that challenge is immigration. But we do not need numbers. We need Hungarian children. need Hungarian children. I know Orbán has also gotten close with Russian President Vladimir Putin. So when Russia attacked Ukraine in February, I heard English commentators saying it was a threat to Orbán in this election because he was so cozy with the aggressor in this war, right? And how did the war in Ukraine actually affect Orban's campaign, you think? When the war first broke out, it was really unclear still how it was going to affect the

campaign. Naturally, it was on everybody's minds because it was only about a month before the elections were to be held. But as the weeks went on, it was on everybody's minds because it was only about a month before the elections were to be held. But as the weeks went on, it became clear that Orbán had decided exactly how he was going to handle the war in Ukraine. And that was by continuing his course of playing essentially sort of a double game between his relationship with the European Union, of which Hungary is a member, and his relationship with President Vladimir Putin in Russia. Orbán visited Moscow a few weeks before Russia's offensive began. He's condemned what's happening but not Putin personally and has positioned himself as the only one who can keep Hungary out of the conflict. So for years many in the EU have criticized Orbán's closeness with Putin.

He's met with him essentially every year since he took power in 2010. And he's also depicted Putin's Russia as sort of a model on which to build his own nation here in Hungary. And that has really raised a lot of eyebrows in the EU, where Putin's Russia is seen as an adversary rather than as an ally. But Orban has sort of pursued a different tack over the years. He's spent years trying to convince his voters that Russia, while a historical foe, because the Soviet Union occupied Hungary for more than 40 years in the 20th century. In the modern world, Russia is an essential ally and partner for Hungary, that Hungary depends on Russia for cheap energy, natural gas and oil, and that without those, energy prices in Hungary would skyrocket and Hungary would be less secure.

Hungary gets 85% of its gas and more than 60% of its oil from Russia. As the war drug on, it became clear that Orban was not going to go along with the European mainstream, which at the time was taking firm steps to put sanctions on Russia, heavy sanctions, and to try to reduce their dependence on Russian energy. Orban decided that he was going to continue his course of playing this double game. And even though Orban and his government did condemn the aggression in Ukraine, ever since the war started, Orban has not mentioned the name of Vladimir Putin even once. Orban's government has supported the sanctions which the European Union has imposed on Moscow,

which the European Union has imposed on Moscow, but has firmly opposed spreading those sanctions out onto energy imports. Now, this was a real gamble for Orbán ahead of the election, because it was unclear how the electorate and how his supporters would react to him really being, once again, a black sheep in the European Union in terms of his approach to Putin in this situation, a black sheep in the European Union in terms of his approach to Putin in this situation, where unimaginable scenes of brutality were occurring just next door. Hungary is a bordering nation of Ukraine. But the gamble really seems to have worked out. Orban won this election by a landslide. There were public polls taken asking people before the election how they felt about the situation in Ukraine. And in late March, only about 44% of Fidesz voters, the supporters of Orbán's Fidesz party, characterized the war as Russian aggression. Many of them thought that the United States or Ukraine were at fault

for the conflict. for the conflict. You know, it's interesting from where I'm sitting in Toronto, it feels like it's easy to assume Hungarians would distrust Moscow and gravitate to the West. As you mentioned, Hungary was part of the Soviet Union. Moscow crushed its revolution against Stalin's rule in the 50s. But more broadly, looking at the geography and history of Hungary, how does it help us understand why Hungary is playing both sides here? It's a small country, a small landlocked country in Central Europe, of fewer than 10 million people. And given its geographical position throughout history, it's really been sort of on a fault line or in sort of a borderland between the East and the West. So all the nations of this region have really found themselves sort of in the middle of a game of tug of war between great powers for many centuries. game of tug of war between great powers for many centuries. And I think that this, along with the uniqueness of the Hungarian language, it's unlike any other language in Europe, it's sort of its own cultural island here. And I think that really plays heavily into the mentality of Hungarian people, whereby they believe that their nation, which has existed for over a thousand years,

is always teetering on the brink of destruction, and that the machinations of great powers around them could at any moment really eliminate their existence. So I think trying to play a pragmatic game by taking advantage of alliances as far as it serves him on both sides really resonates with Hungarian people because they don't see their salvation. And I'm talking about Orban supporters here. They really feel that the West doesn't have all that much to offer them. Viktor Orban has depicted the West as in decline, as sort of crumpling under the weight of decadence of what he calls liberal insanity or LGBTQ madness and woke culture and all these other buzzwords, which are popular

on the right in the United States and Canada as well. And so I think he's managed to convince a lot of his voters and also to sort of harness this sentiment among a lot of Hungarian people that only we are going to choose our friends and we're not going to go along with the mainstream or the liberal consensus of Europe. We're going to play our own game and nobody can tell us that we're not allowed to. Justin, thank you so much for taking the time to walk me through this, to walk us through this. It was my pleasure. Thank you very much. All right, that is all for today.

I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner. Talk to you tomorrow.