Front Burner - Huawei’s Meng Wanzhou extradition fight begins

Episode Date: January 21, 2020

Meng Wanzhou’s extradition hearing finally kicked off this week. It’s been just over a year since the Huawei chief financial officer was arrested on fraud charges. The arrest ignited a massive diplomatic rift between Canada and China, and a lot of international attention is focused on the Vancouver courtroom where a judge now must decide whether Canada will send the heiress to face the U.S. justice system. CBC Vancouver senior reporter Jason Proctor has been covering this story closely. Today on Font Burner he explains how extradition hearings work and how these proceedings might affect Canada’s already tense relationship with China.

This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. It's been just over a year now since Meng Wanzhou was arrested after stepping off an airplane in Vancouver. The chief financial officer of Huawei is facing fraud charges, and her arrest ignited this massive diplomatic rift between Canada and China. Phase one of Meng's extradition hearing finally kicked off this week. So understandably, there is a ton of international attention focused on the Vancouver courtroom, where a judge will decide whether Canada will send her to face the U.S. justice system. CBC Vancouver senior reporter Jason Proctor has been covering the story closely

and he joins me now to explain how extradition hearings actually work, what needs to be proven, and how this all might affect Canada's already tense relationship with China. This is Frontburner. Hi, Jason. So great to have you back. Oh, thanks for having me, Jamie. So let's start here. What's the scene like at the courthouse in Vancouver? Well, as you can imagine, it is, I wouldn't say a zoo exactly, but like every one of Meng Wanzhou's major court appearances, the ones where there's actually some

kind of issue at stake. In the months before, there's been nonstop kind of applications for media accreditation. There's been nonstop public access. And so we had expected today to be one of the busiest since her bail hearing. And that's certainly proven true. There's massive interest from around the globe. I'm on the accreditation committee of the B.C. Supreme Court. And so I certainly myself have received tons of requests from people who wanted to come and attend this from Asia, from New York, from Europe. And this is really this is the first formal stage of the extradition hearing. And so there's massive interest.

And what are the crowds like outside the courthouse? You know, they started building up just around 830, which is when the first doors open up. Tons of media wanting to get a glimpse of Meng Wanzhou as she comes in to the courthouse. It's become an almost formal procedure over, you know, the months in terms of the way that she comes into the courthouse. And it's just an extraordinary scene in terms of the dynamics of the way the courtroom works and the courtroom looks. You have breaks at which you see Meng Wanzhou walking up and down the halls of the courtroom in this kind of almost royal entourage looking thing.

So there's tons of Huawei executives that are in town for this proceeding. So you see her kind of surrounded. And she's certainly very much the this proceeding. So you see her kind of surrounded. And she's certainly very much the focus of attention. You see her surrounded by her advisors and flanking them. You have the security guards who have to follow her 24-7, both protecting her and making sure she doesn't flee. And so they kind of move up and down the hallway. And it's just kind of fascinating to watch. And, you know,

you really get a sense of power, right? And I mean, the person that we're talking here has a lot of power, they have a lot of wealth at their command, and there's a lot of writing on them. And, you know, I mean, she's in a giant courtroom, one that was built especially for Air India, a huge trial that was held here a number of years ago. This is actually the same courtroom where she made her very first bail appearances in B.C. Supreme Court. Ms. Sung, do you have anything to say this morning? Yes. And before we get to the arguments that are being made in her case and how this could play out, I've actually never been to an extradition hearing. And could you give me like a quick 101

on how it goes down? Yeah, essentially, what we're at right now is this phase called double criminality. So if you think about it in terms of what's actually at stake here, you have one state, which is the United States in this case, asking another, which person is accused of doing, the crime that they're charged with in the United States, would that also be considered a crime, like an offense, a prosecutable offense in Canada? And if it is, then we would send them down there. But, you know, this is sort of the bedrock of what extradition is all about, because obviously we don't want to send people to places where they will be prosecuted for things that we wouldn't consider crime. So that's certainly very much at issue here. Usually extradition is not actually as laborious and long a process as it would be here. process as it would be here. But, you know, that's kind of probably a mark of the level of legal representation that she has. But also, this is a very unique case. There aren't many extradition hearings, you know, certainly that we could find in the precedent and that lawyers can find that deal specifically with sanctions violations.

Okay. And so I know Meng Wanzhou is accused of allegedly lying to banks about Huawei's connection with a hidden subsidiary. That Huawei skirted U.S. sanctions on Iran doing business there through banks in the U.S. via a subsidiary called Skycom. And this is what the Justice Department said about it. Huawei allegedly asserted that all of its Iranian business was in compliance with the American sanctions. These alleged false claims led banks to do business with the company and therefore to unknowingly violate our laws. So how are those arguments playing out on both sides in court? Well, what it is, is essentially her defense team says,

and here we get to this kind of division between Canada and the United States in terms of the dealings with Iran. The United States will withdraw from the Iran nuclear deal. We will be instituting the highest level of economic sanction. We regret that the United States has chosen to step out, but the international community will continue to try to move forward in a way that holds Iran to that deal. And so we didn't actually have the same economic sanctions that the US had in place at the time that the extradition warrant was sworn. And so that's the essence of their argument. What they say is that if you kind of transported all the sets of facts, so you mentioned she's accused of lying to banks about an alleged

violation of US economic sanctions. If you transported that to Canada, well, it wouldn't be considered a crime, right? Because we don't have any economic sanctions against Iran. So a bank wouldn't be putting itself into any danger. There would be no potential loss for the bank to experience because there would be nothing there. The Crown, on the other hand, says, and this is kind of also at the bedrock of the way that we think about extradition in Canada, is that it's conduct-based, it's not offense-based. And what that means is we don't do what's called offense matching. You don't kind of put the US law on this side and put the Canadian law on that side and draw them up and see if they're exactly the

same. It's all about the conduct and specifically the essence of the conduct. And what she's actually charged with in the United States is fraud. So it's very basic. It's lying, it's misrepresenting, and somebody's suffering a loss because of that. And what they say is, you know, that's fraud on both sides of the border. And that is what she's allegedly done. That is so fascinating. So just to make sure I understand, her defense team is saying, look, she didn't break any laws in Canada because we don't have those sanctions with Iran. And the Crown is arguing this isn't about the specifics here. It's about the broader charge, which is fraud.

And fraud is also illegal in Canada. Exactly. I mean, they almost basically say that, you know, if you want to think about it, sanctions are actually a red herring here. The bigger issue is fraud. Okay, so what are experts saying about how this hearing could go, about which side has a better case here? You know, the experts seem to think that the Crown probably has the better case, simply because of this idea of it being conduct based versus offense based. And, you know, the way it was described to me is that the way that they've sort of gone is instead of, or the way the courts have moved over the past 10 years is

instead of transposing an entire set of facts into another country, they've kind of looked at it, taken the lowest common denominator of, you know, of an offense. And if that kind of applies, then they've gone with that. And, you know, of course, there's another really key element at play here, the detention of two Canadians in China. Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor have been held in prison for over a year now, presumably in retaliation for the arrest of Meng Wanzhou. And so clearly how this case plays out could have a very direct impact on them, hey? You know, you have to think it would. You actually have all these different

elements. You have the legal case with regards to Meng. You have the tensions between Canada and China, which include the detention and arrest and accusation of spying against these two Canadians. And then there are two other Canadians who are facing the death penalty. And you have sort of then also the economic issues, the fallout. And then you also have the decision going on around Huawei and the Canadian government currently deciding whether or not to allow Huawei to be part of the 5G network. Canada is the only country in the Five Eyes that hasn't blocked or restricted Huawei's plans over security concerns. The US, Australia and New Zealand have frozen the company out. And, you know, none of these things are ever thought about without thinking about Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig. So it's very difficult to untie them. Obviously, that can't play any role in the decision that Associate Chief Justice Heather Holmes has to make. But you can only imagine that if it doesn't go the way that China wants,

there will be displeasure. It certainly won't help the case. That's the way it's been put to me anyway. Let's say Justice Holmes sides with the crown here and says that Meng Wanzhou should be extradited to the United States. What happens next? Does she just go to the United States or are there other steps here? No, there are other steps. There would be a date set aside in June for arguments around abuse of process. So this idea that Meng Wanzhou's constitutional rights were violated when she landed in Vancouver in December 2018. And, you know, she was detained by the CBSA for about three hours before she was actually arrested by the RCMP. And during that time, you know, her phones were taken, the passcodes were taken, and she was asked some questions about Iran. And what the defense has alleged is that she was the victim of kind of a conspiracy at the behest of the FBI to get

information from her using those kind of extraordinary powers at the behest of the FBI to get information from her using those kind of extraordinary powers of the CBSA in order to mount a covert criminal investigation. So they say that would be a violation of her rights. The Crown, on the other hand, has said that is ridiculous and nothing of the sort happened. There is also another branch of the abuse of process argument, which speaks to kind of the politics around this case, which is that the defense alleges that U.S. President Donald Trump, and you may remember he gave an interview with Reuters, I believe, at the time that she was arrested, saying if it could help get a trade deal with China. He said, if I think it's good for what will be certainly the largest trade deal ever made, which is a very important thing, what's good for national security, I would certainly intervene if I thought it was necessary. And so what the defense alleges, you know, going off of that is that that's an extraordinary abuse of her rights, that she's

being used essentially as a political pawn to get a trade deal with China. And so as a result of that, they allege that the whole case should be tossed. OK, so once they deal with this double criminality question, assuming that the judge sides with the crown, then they would move on to this abuse of process argument and the politics part of this, the politics part of this argument. So this could take years. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection.

Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. I know Meng has been on house arrest for the past year. She's been out on $10 million bail. She's going to be staying at one of her two homes worth, we understand from the court proceedings, $21.9 million. And maybe pursuing a PhD in business at the University of British Columbia. Stark contrast to the conditions that Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig are being held in in Chinese prison.

Both remain in detention in what's described as secret jails in China. This is where the lights remain on and the two are subjected to frequent questioning. She hasn't said very much, but I know that you've been covering her. And tell me how she's responded to all of this. You're right. I mean, she hasn't said much. She hasn't. We've certainly asked whether we could speak with her a number of times. That hasn't happened. You know, right after she was released on bail,

she kind of released a blog post talking about, you know, all the massive support that she had had from around the world, comparing the situation to a time when she had gone to Fukushima shortly after there was a tsunami there and kind of had to deal, you know, stand up in the face of adversity like that. On the anniversary of her arrest, she put out a fairly long, you know, vaguely poetic blog post in which she talked about kind of the way the mountains looked around here and the coming of the fall and, you know, the passing of time and the fact that you know though she had never been intended to be here this long the past year

has witnessed moments of fear pain disappointment helplessness torment and struggle she's kind of been buoyed by the support of of the people around her of course i've also been deeply moved by the kindness of people here in canada thanks to the kindness of the correctional officers and other inmates at the Alouette Correctional Centre for Women, I was able to make it through the worst days of my life. She talked about taking the time to kind of complete an oil painting. So that's the one hand kind of thing that we've heard. The other statement has been almost visually, if you want. We've talked to some Huawei executives about this, and you certainly get a sense that there is purpose to the way that she has presented herself

at the hearings. So the very first hearings, we saw her kind of in these hoodies and these floppy hats and, you know, track pants and that kind of thing. In the last bunch of hearings, you see this woman who's wearing designer clothes, these very expensive shoes that people from around the globe have attempted to kind of identify, like Jimmy Choo shoes, that kind of thing, all of which set off this ankle bracelet that she's wearing, which is a GPS monitoring bracelet.

And today she lived up to that as well. Again, she wore a black and white polka dot dress, high heels, the ankle monitoring bracelet well on display. And she waved, she smiled, she looked confident and assured as she entered the courthouse saying hello to reporters and thank you to her supporters. And I asked sort of an old friend who also happens to be head of global PR, I believe, for Huawei, about that.

And I mean, the statement that he said she's trying to make is that she's right out there. Like, she is not hiding from this. She has denied all these allegations. She said she didn't do anything wrong. And again, going back to that kind of abusive process argument, she believes, and they certainly believe, that she's being used as a political pawn and that Huawei and to some degree Canada and she are all caught in the middle of this bigger battle. Wow. I want to talk to you before we go. I wanted to get your perspective on this because we've talked about a couple of the ways that this could play out in court. But there is another option here. An op-ed was written in the Globe and Mail a couple of days ago by the former chief of staff to John Cretien, Eddie Goldenberg.

And Goldenberg was essentially arguing that the Canadian justice minister should step in here. And he should use the section of the law at his discretion and release Meng Wanzhou in exchange for the two Michaels. He argued essentially that this is the more palatable of two very unpalatable options. And that the U.S. got us into this mess and we have to put our own citizens first. Like, he's essentially saying that we should have a prisoner swap here. You know, it's a super interesting question, because just by virtue of having covered this a lot, I hear a lot from the public. And I think people ask that same question. It makes a lot of sense. You know, it's tough, though, at the same time to imagine how Canada goes ahead with its extradition treaties generally in terms of that kind of a suggestion.

Right. Because, I mean, essentially, it seems like what you'd be saying is that it works to take hostages, essentially, and then exchange them for somebody who's wanted. So it's hard to see the United States going for that. You know, another thing a lot of people have talked about is the idea of doing exactly what US President Donald Trump alluded to, and what Prime Minister Justin Trudeau talked about in terms of a trade deal. And this was mentioned by Trudeau over in December on a show called Salut Bonjour in Quebec. He said, you know, the government has said that the U.S. shouldn't sign any final trade deal with China unless it settles the question of the two Michaels and Meng Wanzhou.

You know, you could see that being part of this. You know, and I guess it comes back to what's so extraordinary about this whole situation, because often when we see these kind of prosecutions, you don't actually necessarily see an executive, let alone the daughter of the founder of the company, facing prosecution. You'll see some kind of a giant, you know, multi-million dollar or billion dollar settlement and, you know, a non-prosecution agreement or something like that.

Usually the United States charges the company, not individuals in the company. Yeah. And, you know, there's a lot of people who suggest that that's also what might be going on here in terms of that pressure. But, you know, certainly I think a lot of people, a lot of Canadians that I hear from anyway are saying we don't need this. You know, is this all worth this? Good question. Jason Proctor, thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you for having me. All right. So before we go today, I want to bring your attention to sort of an odd scene outside the courthouse in Vancouver today. A handful of young people, all holding homemade and near identical red and white signs that said stuff like, bring Michael home, Trump stop bullying us, and free Ms. Meng, equal justice. The group was untypically mum for protesters with a message. They didn't want to answer questions about what group they were from. We're not allowed to talk, so we're not. Our group doesn't want to talk. Whether they were familiar with the issues. We just want equal justice. Equal justice. How is equal justice? Are you aware of the

extradition treaty? I'm not. A reporter on the scene was curious if they had been paid to be there and most of them kept quiet. Are you paid to be here? Though one young man said that he wasn't. All right, we're following the story and we'll update you on anything significant as it evolves. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner and talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.