Front Burner - 'I couldn't just stay silent': Sexual misconduct in the military

Episode Date: March 16, 2021

A former member of the Canadian Armed Forces who experienced a culture of sexual misconduct first-hand reflects on the latest onslaught of allegations that go straight to the top.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. It's been headline after headline for more than a month. First, in early February, a sexual misconduct investigation into the former Chief of Defense Staff, General Jonathan Vance, was announced.

Then shortly after, his successor, Admiral Art MacDonald, stepped down from the role. He too is under investigation over a separate allegation of sexual misconduct against a female junior officer on a naval ship back when he was a captain. And last week, CBC News reported that the man in charge of human resources for the Canadian forces had also been investigated over multiple allegations of inappropriate behavior with female subordinates in the 90s. Sources told the CBC his track record of avoiding consequences even earned him a nickname, Mulligan Man. Accompanying this flood of stories, important questions about who knew what, when. It's been a lot.

It's been even more for those who have called out sexual misconduct in the military in the past, those who had hoped that maybe things were going to change. To date, the view from one former member of the military who says that she was harassed relentlessly and sexually assaulted, and who spoke up as part of a class action lawsuit against the Canadian Armed Forces that the government settled less than two years ago. I wanted to join the military because I thought it would be a great and fulfilling career. thought it would be a great and fulfilling career. I knew friends who had joined and they had gone through basic training and physical fitness was an important part of my life. And this is one career where physical fitness is part of your day-to-day routine. And there's also the aspect that you get to serve your country.

It's a career that has a purpose. And I felt like I was proud to serve my country. Glynis Rogers was 18 years old when she first joined the Canadian Armed Forces. It was 2006. She was fresh out of high school. the Canadian Armed Forces. It was 2006. She was fresh out of high school. Eventually, she realized it wasn't going to be exactly the great and fulfilling career she'd imagined.

There wasn't one moment. It was such an everyday occurrence that it kind of just wore down on you like day after day. And I wasn't able to just disregard it. It really affected me. Of course, after the sexual assault and everything that happened, because of that, I just realized that it wasn't the right fit for me. I couldn't just stay silent. I couldn't just suck it up and forget about it,

like they expect you to do in the military. I wasn't able to handle just accepting the culture. And can you tell me a little bit about what that culture was like for you? you? Yeah. It was honestly almost on a daily basis. There would be some comment or some inappropriate touching. It just felt like I couldn't be myself. I had to work harder, train better, have better scores, have better academic standing than my male peers in order to gain respect. Those comments could be derogatory, offensive, about her appearance, her intelligence. She was called a slut. Her behind was slapped. One time in particular, when I was in training, a superior officer touched me inappropriately.

And it had happened before, more so with peers, because I was in training kind of up until then. peers because I was in training kind of up until then. So it was mostly just peers, other men on training with me. So having a superior officer do the same thing, it shocks me at first, but it's almost like you had to just deal with it. You had to almost even laugh it off. just deal with it. You had to almost even laugh it off. So I didn't report this at the time. I didn't even know it was something that people reported. It might sound horrible, but if it was just inappropriate touching or like like, name-calling or misogynistic jokes, sexist jokes, it felt like there wasn't anything that we could do. If we mentioned anything to our superiors, who I would have had to go above him, it would have just been dismissed.

I know that beyond the jokes and the comments and the inappropriate touching, you were also raped during your time in the military. And first, I want to say that I'm so sorry that you went through this. And I do know that you did report this. And can you describe what your attempts to get justice within the institution was like? the institution was like? Luckily, I had a superior officer that I completely trusted. And he made sure that the military police were contacted. But it's always a bit difficult. Well, I found it difficult because it remained in the military. Like, I had to report a peer to somebody else in the military, to somebody else who was in uniform. Even though they say that coming forward won't affect your career,

that coming forward won't affect your career, it won't affect your postings or your standing within the organization, it does change your relationship with peers. I've had people ever since this class action actually message me and say, like, hey, I used to respect you, but now all that respect is gone. One guy even said, how could I do this all for just sole financial personal gain?

So it's difficult to come forward because even though they say it won't affect your career, Even though they say it won't affect your career, it won't affect your relationships with your peers or your subordinates or superiors, it does. It definitely does. I know that the military legal system is currently being revamped to address some of these shortcomings. But with my experience, I wasn't able to have this criminal hearing heard by a civilian court. It had to be in the military court system. by a civilian court. It had to be in the military court system. And although you can't have a military judge-only trial, if you do have a trial by jury, those juries are other officers, other NCMs in the military. Glynnis' accused was initially found guilty in a court-martial. He was sentenced to six months

imprisonment and a demotion in military rank, but he later appealed and was acquitted. It was very difficult to go through the military legal system. I think it failed me, to be completely honest. It's something that should be external. The military system, legal system, like JAG officers, they deal more so with military code of conduct breaches. So like absent without leave or insubordination. But when it comes to criminal sexual assault, it's not designed, I guess, for this.

And I feel like the lawyers, prosecutors, and the defending counsel, they don't have the experience that is required. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast,

just search for Money for Couples. In 2015, the retired Supreme Court Justice Marie Deschamps issued a scathing report after conducting an independent review of sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces. What she found, it confirmed a lot of what Glynnis had experienced, that the military had this highly masculine, sexualized culture where people turn a blind eye to misconduct. In response, Operation Honor was launched by then Chief of Defense Staff General Jonathan Vance. It's an ongoing campaign to stamp out sexual misconduct in the forces. Glyn has left the military shortly after it kicked off.

When it was announced, it just turned into a joke. It was just more like declarations of zero tolerance, and it accomplished very little. It was hop on her. When you say hop on her, what do you mean? So Operation Honor was shortened to Op Honor, Op Honor, and then everybody would make the joke about Hop Honor. Huh. Right. It was still military policing, military. There's still that bro mentality, that, like, lack of accountability. The one thing, like, that Deschamps, one of the major recommendations that she made in the report was for independent oversight. And I think that they still don't have that. They did implement a sexual misconduct

report center, but this center is more for just disseminating information. So it kind of ties into the military legal system. I think the military, especially with the latest news and with Vance, who implemented Op Honor, with him in the headlines being accused for sexual misconduct himself, it just shows that the military isn't able to police themselves. General Vance is currently being investigated over an alleged improper sexual relationship with a subordinate and an alleged email, which, according to Global News, invites another female subordinate who'd asked for career advice to a clothing-optional vacation destination. Vance denies all allegations of inappropriate behavior. But it's not just allegations against Vance and his successor, Admiral Art McDonald, that are raising concerns.

It's also this testimony from the former military ombudsman, Gary Walburn. I did tell the minister what the allegation was. He had raised an allegation of inappropriate behavior by then-CDS Vance to Defense Minister Harjit Sajjan, and that Sajjan refused to look at the supporting evidence. I reached into my pocket to show him the evidence I was holding and he pushed back from the table, said no. It just shows again that this hierarchy isn't capable of actually being held accountable. Like there's no accountability at any level right now. I want to ask you about another thing that stuck out to me

from Walburn's testimony. He said that he came to Sajan because this woman wanted some kind of assurance that her career would not be hurt by coming forward. And one of her things that she was looking for, she said, if only there was someone you could talk to that would give you the assurance you need. I thought in this particular case, looking at the allegation who was made against, the minister was the guy for that. You talked about this earlier, about how that's a real

reality. And he said that he thought the minister would be the guy for that and the minister looked away that's the common theme that's what happens at every level so honestly like it's it's horrible to say this but it's it's not the first time i'm sure and it's at that level, it's shocking. Yes, it should not be happening. But that's the exact same thing that happens at every single level of the military. People look away. Minister Harjit Sajjan confirmed in testimony before the Defence Committee last Friday that he did not look at the evidence, but that it was because he wanted to keep the investigative process independent from political interference.

At the very end of this private conversation, Mr. Walburn brought up concerns of misconduct involving the former Chief of Defence Staff. He did not give me any details. I did not allow him to give me any details. I very purposely respected the investigative process to ensure that it remained independent. Drawing an elected official, a politician, into the sequence of an investigation would have been wrong and dangerous, politicizing any investigation that threatens a just outcome for those who come forward. Given his position and experience, Mr. Walburn should have known this.

Lieutenant Commander Raymond Trotter also testified before this committee on Friday. He reported a complaint of sexual misconduct against then-CDS Admiral Art MacDonald on behalf of another last month, and he said he had a really hard time navigating the system. This is very difficult for me as I was trying to do my duty to the Canadian Armed Forces and to the complaint. I wish there had been more guidance for me. There are many policies, but I am unsure if Operation Honour has been widely accepted within the Canadian Armed Forces yet. I was involved in another sexual misconduct report later in February, i.e. the next week, and I was disappointed in that experience as well. as well. As some senior personnel I interacted with minimized this other incident, and in fact, I was berated in a very demeaning manner for following through on my reporting. I believe

I was treated this way because the complaint was also about another senior officer. It was a very discouraging and disappointing experience. In this environment, I can certainly understand why so many victims of sexual misconduct would be reluctant to come forward. Thank you. Glynis said she was a bit surprised that even a guy of this rank, a lieutenant commander, came up against these hurdles. I didn't think that the experience would be the same, to be completely honest. But again, he's reporting on a senior officer in the military. Like I said, when you go up against the military, you're going to get resistance. Unfortunately, it's going to affect your relationship with peers, subordinates, and your superior officers.

That's what happens with this current design. After all the disappointments we've talked about today, I wonder what you think needs to be done to truly tackle, to truly change this culture that seems to persist. tackle to truly change this culture that seems to persist? The one thing that is actually positive from this is that women are finally starting to feel that they can speak out, to feel like they can be finally heard. So that is one positive aspect about this. But honestly, I truly believe the military needs to listen to the experts. They've done multiple reports, but they haven't implemented the recommendations. And one of the main things that I think would help a lot would be independent oversight and accountability.

Because right now, it shows that even at the highest level, there's no accountability. Right. And you mentioned these reports. The report by Marie Deschamps, this independent center, was a centerpiece recommendation of her report six years ago. When she looked into the issue. And, you know, it's also worth noting that the minister, Minister Sajjan, has now said that the forces will create some kind of independent complaint process for allegations of misconduct

and that all options are on the table as to its structure. Does that give you any hope? It does. That does give me hope, finally. And also the restructure of the current superior officers in the military. Like there's now a female in the role of Vice Chief of Defense Staff. Now, finally, at least there's some representation. There's somebody else who has a different experience. There's somebody who women can look up to and who can finally feel like they have a voice.

On that note, the military wants to have women make up 25% of military personnel by 2026. And they have a long way to actually go to reach that goal. Right now, women make up about 16% of the military. And what would you say to a young woman who is looking at a career in the military today? That's really difficult. Really difficult thing to answer because I do have some friends who have had an amazing experience in the military. And it is still, it can still be a rewarding career. You can still feel pride that you're serving your country, that you do have a purpose. You can travel the world.

So it's difficult. I try not to persuade anybody based on my opinion, but I do like to make sure that people, anybody who's joining the military, has done their research. They know what they're getting into. At the beginning of this episode, I mentioned that Glynnis was one of the lead plaintiffs in a class action lawsuit about sexual assault and misconduct in the military. The federal government settled that suit for $900 million in 2019. Before we ended our conversation, I asked Glynnis about what happened when people were invited by the judge to speak.

And I want to leave you with her response. to speak. And I want to leave you with her response. So I think the judge initially just wanted reasons of why people agreed or disagreed with the class action. But then woman after woman came up and they began to speak about what they've been through in the military. And I think it was a very cathartic moment for a lot of women because this was finally a safe place outside of the military where they could speak, where they could be heard and supported. But hearing all of the experiences is heartbreaking it was really heartbreaking I want to thank you so much for this conversation thank you for being so open

oh you're welcome and thank you for having me me. All right. So before we go today, we've invited defense minister Harjit Sajjan to come onto the show to talk about this issue. He has so far not accepted that invitation. That's all for today. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.