Front Burner - In Saskatchewan, a domestic violence prevention law hits roadblocks

Episode Date: June 30, 2020

Saskatchewan has just become the first Canadian province to enact Clare’s Law, which aims to help prevent domestic violence by allowing police to warn people about a partner's violent past. But it��s already hit a stumbling block: the RCMP says it won’t take part. Bonnie Allen, a CBC national reporter based in Regina, walks us through the new law and talks about why it’s controversial – including among some anti-domestic violence advocates.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Josh Bloch. If anyone's starting a new relationship, they should be able to find out whether their partner has a violent past.

It's the idea behind Claire's Law. If someone reaches out for help, we're going to do everything we can to help them. This week, Saskatchewan became the first province in Canada to enact Claire's Law. It's intended to prevent domestic violence by allowing police to warn people about a partner's violent past. A similar law has been on the books in the UK since 2014. What this scheme means is that members of the public are entitled to ask the police for information

about their partner. But in Saskatchewan, the law has already hit a snag. The RCMP says it won't take part, at least not right now. I don't understand the reticence of the RCMP. So I'm not really sure what could be the barrier. I would hate to see the RCMP, our national police force, be the odd one out. And while Claire's law is popular, it's also controversial,

including among some advocates for victims of domestic violence. Today I'm speaking with Bonnie Allen. She's a CBC national reporter based in Regina who's been covering domestic violence issues in Saskatchewan for years. This is FrontBurner. Hello, Bonnie. Hi, Josh. I want to start with Claire Wood. Who was she?

Claire Wood was a single mother who was brutally murdered by her ex-boyfriend in 2009. She was going to take on the world. She would be able to do this, that. The next job was going to be the most brilliant, and little or nothing come of that. Claire Wood murdered by an abusive ex-boyfriend she met on Facebook. His name was George Appleton. They had only dated for about 10 months,

but after she rejected him, he then continued to harass and terrorize her for months. Now, she called police several times about that, but at no point did police warn her that he had a history of violence. In fact, he had served prison time for it. Appleton raped her, strangled her, and set her on fire. My daughter died because some man, and I say man in brackets, And when her father, Michael Brown, found out about that history of violence, he said that had his daughter known very quickly in the relationship,

he's sure she would have left much sooner and after the breakup that she might have done more to protect her safety and to take those threats more seriously. I thought it was a disgrace that the police couldn't tell my daughter she was in trouble. And I think the police must have realized, and it was frustrating for them not to be able to tell my daughter. So what changes did her murder inspire in the UK? Well, it inspired what's known as Claire's Law. It often has much more jargony names, the domestic violence disclosure scheme, but essentially it's about releasing information. It gives police permission to warn women

and men who are at risk because their partner has a history of violence. So there are two parts. There's the right to ask and right to know. So, Josh, just imagine that I'm in a new relationship with a boyfriend. I'm quite taken with him, but there are some red flags and maybe some rumors. So I could make an application to police to find out whether or not he has a history of violence and what kind of risk they would consider me to be at. Or what if it's my parents or my best friend that are concerned, they could make the application. The information would not be released to them. It would be given to me, but they can trigger the request. And finally, the police could decide on their own, just take it upon themselves to warn me if they've been

keeping an eye out for serial offenders and they're concerned about me. And what exactly would the police share with you at that point? So the information that's released isn't quite as interesting or as extensive as some people might imagine. You are not given every interaction, complaint, police call. But a panel will assess your level of risk, low, medium, and high or high. You will be given that risk assessment and any sort of criminal convictions that are on the books would be shared with you. This law is being looked at in a number of jurisdictions across Canada, but Saskatchewan is actually the first province to pass Clare's Law.

It just came into force on Monday. And there's a pretty good reason why Saskatchewan is the first, given how serious the domestic violence problem is in the province. That's right. Saskatchewan has a pretty grim track record. Every day across this province,

domestic violence is tearing lives apart. It started with reports of gunfire in the small northern Saskatchewan town of Kindersley Thursday morning. It frustrates us that we continue to have these high rates of violence. It comes out first among all the provinces in all the ways you don't want to be first. It has the highest rate of domestic violence. It has the highest rate of police-reported intimate partner violence, family violence that would involve children, and intimate partner homicide.

I mean, the statistics are shocking. In 2015, 5,976 cases of intimate partner violence were reported in Saskatchewan. That's 666 cases per 100,000. that's 666 cases per 100,000. And when you compare that to a province like Prince Edward Island, which has the lowest rate, is 197 cases per 100,000. Yeah, that's disturbing. And then it's even more disturbing when you consider that 70% of domestic violence incidents are not reported to police.

So those are only the ones police know about. So prior to passing this law, what kind of work had the Saskatchewan government tried to do in terms of both documenting these cases and then also curbing domestic violence? So before 2015, I would say not very much. And 2015 was a turning point for a few reasons. In April there was a really terrible and tragic murder suicide that made national headlines. The public was left reeling following the horrific killings of Latasha Gosling and three children at the hands of her partner. And shortly after my colleague Stephanie Langenager and I did an assessment of where Saskatchewan stacked up.

Saskatchewan tops a grim Canadian list. Now, a recent spike... And discovered that there had never been a coroner's inquest into any domestic violence homicide, nor had there been a formal review into any killing of that type. So that also made national headlines, and shortly after, it was followed by two more high-profile homicides. One involved a young domestic violence counsellor named Celeste Yanni,

who was beaten to death by her boyfriend. And shortly after that, a woman named Lisa Strang was shot by her husband. And Lisa Strang was a longtime employee of the Saskatchewan Party, which is the ruling governing party in Saskatchewan. So when you take all of that together, it was very soon after that the government announced that it would do a domestic violence death review. It would appoint a panel of experts to examine why domestic homicides were happening and to make recommendations. And so then I guess Clare's Law is passed in the wake of that and came into effect in Saskatchewan. Although there's already been a pretty big bump in the road, the RCMP is now saying that they can't participate in the law. Tell me why. What's the reasoning? Well, basically, they're citing privacy. There's only a person at risk of harm from an individual

who would ever have any access to sensitive information. So I really don't understand this decision by the RCMP. They would have raised it a year ago when we started to engage with the RCMP. We've had ongoing discussions that have been fruitful. We've worked with them to develop a protocol. Now, to be clear, the RCMP supports Clare's Law in principle and has been part of the planning process from the beginning. I do think they're working towards, and I know as a province, we're working towards finding some sort of a common ground where they can participate. People have been working on this legislation for two years, and I would hope that would have given them ample time. But when it came time to put it

into effect, it said that it was restricted by the Federal Privacy Act, which essentially, it says, stops the RCMP from releasing private information about a person without that person's consent. In this case, it seems to have taken the Saskatchewan government off guard. We were caught off guard that they went ahead with this a week ago and said, no, we're not participating, because we worked with them to get to this point and we were disappointed. Right. It sounds like there's been a lot of tension between the Saskatchewan Justice Minister Don Morgan and Bill Blair, the Federal Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. Indeed. In fact, Justice Minister Don Morgan wrote a pretty sternly worded letter to the Minister of Public Safety and then proceeded

to release it to the media last week saying how disappointed the Saskatchewan government is, and going on about the fact that they had offered the RCMP every opportunity to sort of sort out these legal issues and to consult with their lawyer. And now it's up to the government to explain to potential victims of violence why they won't have access to this information. And tell me more about the stakes here. I mean, if the RCMP doesn't participate, what does that mean for people who live in rural parts of Saskatchewan who don't live in areas under the jurisdiction of a municipal police force? It means that people who are in relationships could still make the application to a municipal

police service by the phone or on the internet. But it's that other part of it, Josh, the right to know, where police could monitor serial offenders and proactively warn women in those relationships that they could be at risk. Obviously, you can't expect a city police officer in Regina to monitor a serial offender in Pelican Narrows, 800 kilometers north, which is an RCMP jurisdiction. When you spoke to Regina's chief of police, what was his response to the RCMP position? Well, he said that he'll focus on his officers and doing what they can do,

that he doesn't want to be caught up too much in the controversy. At the end of the day, we're in the business of helping people. Regina Police Chief Evan Bray is a huge proponent of Clare's Law. He says that it will protect police officers who want to warn potential victims. Also, he says that he doesn't really have privacy concerns because they are only releasing the risk factor and criminal convictions that should be public record but are rarely available to the public. And finally, he sees it as a starting point, Josh. The intention of this legislation is that it would be province-wide and certainly would help not only those in large centers but those in small centres where resources aren't quite as readily available,

but it is instant access and it promotes a conversation that can help keep people safe. Because there's an opportunity then to offer other services, victim services, family counselling, access to women's shelter. So it's like a doorway to those people. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Cops. So I have to say, it doesn't seem surprising that this kind of law would raise some privacy concerns. What do other legal experts say about the concerns that the RCMP has?

Well, certainly there are privacy considerations and some of the issues for past perpetrators are what kind of offenses would be held against them and for how long and aren't people allowed second chances. But the Federal Privacy Act does allow for information, a person's personal information to be released if the public interest outweighs any invasion of privacy. That's written into the Federal Privacy Act. So in this case, the Saskatchewan Privacy Commissioner, who's in charge of the provincial laws, says it's pretty clear to him that public interest and safety would trump that privacy concern. Information would either say it is low risk, medium risk, or high risk, I think a good number of my concerns basically evaporated.

We have these privacy concerns from the RCMP and from others, but that's not the only controversy surrounding Clare's Law. And I'm wondering if you can walk me through some of the other concerns, especially from anti-domestic violence advocates. What are they saying about this law, both here and in the UK? Sure. Well, one of the main concerns that is often raised is that this puts too much onus on the victim. It makes women responsible for men's violence. So you tell a woman he's got a violent history, you're then making her responsible. It could lead to victim blaming

and victim shaming. So police could say, well, you've been warned. Now it's on you. You know, what did you think was going to happen? And of course, domestic violence is incredibly complicated. Women choose to stay in a relationship for many reasons. Often they're beaten down and broken. Their self-esteem has been chipped away. They're financially dependent or they have children with the person or they could truly love the person and sort of have that fix-it mentality. Like, I will be there and I can give this person a second chance. So a woman should never be blamed for staying in a relationship. Other concerns are this idea of how receptive would a woman be to the information

if she didn't seek it out if it was a family member or the police who instigated this because it depends who's done the asking but if it's a friend or a family member who's asking on her behalf and actually she doesn't want to know then you've got a whole range of other different questions that there are issues with the quality of information. As I mentioned earlier, domestic violence incidents are rarely reported to police. So Clara's Law is only as good as the information. In most cases, there would be no police interaction or no charge or criminal conviction because nobody reported to the police. So to say, oh, there's nothing here in the books doesn't mean the woman isn't at risk and it could give her a false sense of security.

And finally, one other concern would be that lack of trust in the police system and the criminal justice system that some people would just not feel comfortable reaching out or receiving any contact. Right. I mean, speaking of trust, like this law is predicated on people trusting the police. In Saskatchewan, there's a significant Indigenous population. And for many of those communities, that trust does not exist. And in fact, a Human Rights Watch report from 2017 documented dozens of instances where Indigenous women have experienced violence at the hands of police and the RCMP in Saskatchewan specifically. Yeah, there's a huge history of distrust between Indigenous people and police. There's systemic racism that extends to people of colour, to immigrant women, to women with disabilities. I hope that RCMP, that cop that killed our niece, our granddaughter, that he's listening.

I was hurt. I was hurt in my heart and in my mind and in my soul. It is hoped that perhaps Clare's Law could begin to foster that trust and could encourage people to report domestic violence. But there's a lot of work to be done to get to that point. And I would say that it would be unlikely that many women would feel comfortable making that application today. Bonnie, you recently spoke to a survivor of domestic violence who said that Claire's law would not have helped her. Yeah, that's right. I spoke with Savannah Hodgson. She's a 31-year-old woman from rural Saskatchewan

whose husband threatened her with a chainsaw and a gun. My husband died that night and who showed up was someone that I don't ever want to see again. He just wanted to be powerful and feel powerful. She was able to escape and he was eventually convicted of assault with a weapon. So it was only later that she discovered from one of his exes that he had treated that woman in a similar way. But she said, I was braver to tell about it where she didn't. Even if Savannah had made a request under Claire's law, it wouldn't have turned up anything. There had been no reports to police.

The law has been around for six years in the UK. Is there evidence that it has made a difference there? Well, it depends how you measure whether or not it's been effective. I interviewed Sandra Walklade, who is a sociology professor in Liverpool, who's respected as a domestic violence expert. And she says if you measure it by whether or not there's been a reduction in domestic violence, then no. They're minuscule. In 2017, it was 0.4%. In 2018, it was 0.5%. I just think we need a lot more evidence about how and under what circumstances this kind of scheme might work and for whom it might work. She would also say that there was never any evidence to begin with

to suggest that Clara's Law would make a difference. It's one of those initiatives that was introduced, I think, not on the basis of any evidence that it would work, but simply because people thought it would be a good idea. You know, some advocates say that this is just low-hanging fruit, that it's actually a way for governments to make it seem like they're doing something about domestic violence, but it kind of avoids tackling some of those more deeper, complicated issues. What are you hearing about that?

Yeah, and that's certainly one of the criticisms. There's this one phrase that everybody uses to describe Clare's Law, which is that it's one tool in the toolbox. It's really just one more tool to try and help people in a preventative way. But if we go back to how the government released it, it was after that domestic homicide review report that called on them to do a lot of different things. And they very quickly said, look, we're going to pass Claire's law. And then I would argue almost every interview we've done with the government since they've pointed to Claire's law. So it is considered low-hanging fruit in the sense that it's fairly easy for the government to pass. The onus is on the police to

then implement it. There isn't much more that's asked of government. And it's something they can point to to say, look, we're doing something and perhaps distract people from all the other things that they've been slow to do. And that would include many of the other recommendations in that report. Because, for example, one of the recommendations was for a public awareness and public education campaign. And here we are two years later, no sign of that. I think they've put it out for tender. But again, I mean, no billboards, nothing on TV, nothing on the radio. So in addition to what you've been talking about, what other kinds of changes do advocates want to see happen alongside Clare's Law to try and really tackle the issue of domestic violence in Saskatchewan?

Yeah, so one of the main calls is for a mandatory kindergarten to grade 12 curriculum that would teach healthy relationships. And that would go hand in hand with this public awareness campaign I mentioned. They would like to see more programming for perpetrators. And there are also no, really no programs that would do the intensive family counseling, because as many domestic violence experts point out, expecting people to leave the relationship can be naive. work with the two people to try to forge a healthier, safer path forward. So more programming that would do that. For those who do want to leave the relationship, more shelter spaces. In January and February, I called every single crisis shelter and second stage shelter in the province. Most of them are full and turning people away. We discovered that women and children are being turned away from domestic violence shelters 600 times a month in Saskatchewan. And Saskatchewan is one of only two provinces in the country that do not provide any core funding to second stage shelters that would provide that long-term counseling and security to women who want to

leave the relationship. Bonnie, you've covered domestic violence in Saskatchewan for years. And looking back, how many of those cases would have been changed by Claire's Law? If I look at all of the domestic homicides that I have covered in, say, the past seven years, I would say that Claire's Law would likely have not made a difference in any of them because there was either no record of police interactions or criminal record. So there was no information to access or the woman already knew that the man was violent. And so she didn't need someone to tell her that. But the one catch to that, I would say, Josh, is that if police had sought out some of those women who were in relationships with serial offenders, and that had

triggered more supports, then maybe, just maybe that might have made a difference, but we'll never really know for those women. Bonnie, thank you so much for speaking with me today. Thank you for having me. Before we go, a news update for all you double-double lovers out there. Tim Hortons is being investigated by Canadian privacy authorities over their smartphone app. Tim Hortons is under investigation for the way its app collects location data from customers. The Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, along with similar authorities in Alberta, B.C. and Quebec,

announced on Monday that they're launching an investigation into Tim Horton's app data collection practices. The investigation comes after a report by the Financial Post earlier this month, which revealed that the app was collecting detailed location data from users, even when they weren't using the app. Tim Horton strongly disputes the idea that they're doing anything their users aren't aware of, and told CBC that the company recently updated the app so that it only collects location data when the app is open.

The investigation is ongoing. That's all for today. I'm Josh Bloch. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner.