Front Burner - In search of separatists in Alberta

Episode Date: June 20, 2025

Last week, Front Burner spent a few days in Three Hills, Alberta, a small town northeast of Calgary. We attended an event about Alberta independence, and spoke to a wide array of people about separation from Canada, and the possibility of an upcoming referendum on the issue. CBC Calgary’s Jason Markusoff came with us.Why Three Hills? Because while separatist sentiment does exist in the province’s cities, it runs deeper in rural small towns, where people tend to feel more disconnected and frustrated with the federal government.People in Three Hills will also be voting in a provincial byelection this Monday, where a separatist party – the Alberta Republican Party – is running a candidate. So in a way, separatism is already on the ballot.For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcriptsRead Jason Markusoff's piece here: How voters in rural conservative heartland wrestle with Alberta separatism

Ten years ago, I asked my partner Kelsey if she would marry me. I did that, despite the fact that every living member of my family who had ever been married had also gotten divorced. Forever is a Long Time is a five-part series in which I talk to those relatives about why they got divorced and why they got married. You can listen to it now on CBC's Personally. This is a CBC Podcast. Hey everybody, I'm Jamie Poisson. So last week I spent a few days in Three Hills, Alberta, a town of about 3,400 people. It's about 90 minutes northeast of Calgary. I was with our producer Elaine Chao and our colleague, longtime political reporter based

in Calgary, Jason Markossoff. As we've discussed quite a bit on the show recently, there is a group of Albertans who want to see a referendum on the issue of separation soon. And Alberta Premier Daniel Smith has just made it much easier for them to do that. We chose Three Hills because, well, I'll let Jason explain from our car ride into town. We gotta leave Calgary to do a proper episode talking to separatists because there are separatists and there is separatism sentiment within the big cities, Calgary and Edmonton, but it's mostly a rural small town sentiment.

In the same way that conservatism runs deeper outside of the big cities, so does the separatist sentiment. It's there where people feel way disconnected from Ottawa, more frustrated liberals, more supported by conservative politicians and some conservative rural values. So it's there that the separatist movement bleeds the deepest. The other reason that we chose Three Hills is because it's in the political crosshairs, like no other place in the province right now. There is a provincial by-election on Monday, so June 23rd, where a separatist party, the

Alberta Republican Party, is running a candidate. So people here will get to say in some way yes or no to separation and separate a sentiment. Alright, so this is just like any municipal town hall. There's a stage here, lots of chairs set up and I think we're going to sign in here. Yeah, hi. Can I sign in? Sure. Sure, we're actually with the CBC. We've got an entry to win for a free Alberta flag. Thank you.

Oh, are you us? Yeah, we're actually with the CBC from Jamie. Welcome! I'm so glad you're here. Alberta flags are pretty big here. There was a big Republic of Alberta flag as we walked into a quote, independence discussion in Three Hills. Events like this have been popping up all over the province. There are about 150 people here,

and a handful of speakers are making the case for separation. There's someone from the Alberta Prosperity Project, which is collecting signatures for a petition to get a referendum on the ballot. Cam Davies, leader of the separatist Alberta Republican Party, who is trying to get a referendum on the ballot. Cam Davies, leader of the separatist Alberta Republican Party, who is trying to get elected in the riding's upcoming by-election, rallied for votes. We have a desperate need right now in Alberta for a course correction. It's a correction of the heart, but it's also a correction of the government. Because we are the government, each and every one of you.

That's how it should be. And so if we don't hold accountability as a priority, if we don't hold the people that we elect to do what they say they're going to do, then we've lost the plot. Alberta is in a toxic, abusive relationship with Ottawa. As a show of hands, how many in this room believe that we should give Mark Carney a chance? We've got one. Okay. I'll accept that. That's okay. It's always hard. You really got a sense that there was a lot at stake for the separatism cause here. If Davies wins the by-election, he would be the only separatist in the legislature. It would bring provincial, national, and even international attention to what they're trying to do. Interestingly, Three Hills has been down this road before.

The only other time a separatist was elected in Alberta was 1982, when Gord Kessler won basically the same riding. Kessler is actually at this event too, and his speech got some of the biggest cheers of the night. And by the way, I was elected as a separatist, and now it's not politically correct to say I'm a separatist say I'm a separatist. I'm a separatist. But the point is, we're called separatists, but the federal government abandoned Alberta

a long time ago. a long time ago. They have separated in every way, socially, culturally, financially, the list goes on and on. They have separated from the values that we as Alberta have been raised with. So they are the Separatists. So I think Ward's dirty word comments have a bit of a double meaning. Sure, lots of people look at Separatism in Alberta as a negative thing on the whole. But also, within the movement to separate, people often prefer to use the word independence because they think it has

a less negative connotation. Anyhow, we make the rounds looking for people to chat with. We walked up to Jackie and Ryan, mother and son from Sundry, an hour west of here. Jason noticed that she was wearing a more Alberta, less Ottawa t-shirt. It means to me that Alberta is a province, has smarts, doesn't have to depend on Ottawa. Like we're tired of listening to Ottawa bosses around. We are, we can be an independent province. Back then I didn't think that. I thought we're strong, we're going to stand up for ourselves within Canada.

I don't think it can happen anymore. Why? Why do you think? Because Eastern... because the Laurentian... Because there are 50 years plus of the same old problems with Ottawa's overreach. When did that switch then from more Alberta, less Ottawa, to more Alberta, no Ottawa? Well as soon as Trudeau did his I'm out of here, and then he brought in somebody else that's going to control everything. Like he did not represent the West, he never did, and we still don't have anybody that's representing the West. It's quite obvious.

Even the people from the East are saying, yeah, like you guys are being trod on, like, come on. Have you kind of thought about the practicalities of moving on? We need to find out, isn't it? Yeah. I think there's a lot of things that are said that would possibly can happen, but we don't know that. Who's gonna, is he gonna pull the Emergencies Act on us? Is he gonna, like who knows? They're capable of doing anything. Guess what? They've done it before. Talking about the truckers convoy, right? So... Are you talking like how the expense of everything if... The federal infrastructure, the social services that are so intertwined with the federal...the fact that Alberta is a landlocked province,

the fact that business leaders are saying that it could dampen investment, foreign investment in the province, like what happened in Quebec, like those kind of practicalities. I think Quebec has a different situation than us. They want to be their own culture, they have demands for that, and that's fine, they can have their own culture, but we're our own people out here. We send billions of dollars every year out to Ottawa, they dole it out to Quebec and other have-not provinces, and we don't get nothing back for it. So I think it's time for us to stand up for ourselves and be our own, you know, make decisions for our own money and not spend it on Ottawa and Quebec and their happiness.

This kind of separation is more than just, if Alberta goes through with it, it's more than just a four year political term. You know, that you know, Carney can come, Poliev or the next concerto leader can come in. I guess I wonder about how you feel about the permanence of what Alberta could do if it's separated. That it's like there's no... Like it's hard to go back. Yeah.

Yay! We don't want to go back. Yeah. Yay. We don't want to go back. So this room full of people, it wasn't exactly a local crowd. A local counselor and the mayor were there to kind of check out the vibe. And they told us that they recognize maybe around a quarter of the room. Jason mentioned that he recognized people from other events he'd been to around the province. He likened it a bit to deadheads who would follow the Grateful Dead around.

Separation superfans. But we did find and speak to people who lived in Three Hells. One of them was Sonia Farrell, who was serving coffee at the event. Did you say earlier that you were going to wear your Canada hat here? Yeah. I was thinking about it, but you know what? I just decided that I'm just going to wear the red shirt. Sonia moved to Three Hills in 2003 from Mississauga because she wanted a quieter, less crowded

life. She's got two daughters, 18 and 20, who were raised here. So just tell me a little bit about what brought you here tonight. Okay well I think that it is a big question. There have been a lot of policies that have kept Albertans back from the opportunities that would have been easy in the East. One of my first jobs that I had when I got out here was I was working at Canada Post, that depot right there. And the first thing that I was asked to do was wear a mask. And when I talked to a local doctor, he was able to acquire from me a mask exemption.

And I was basically told that I could not work in the office without wearing a mask or relinquish my health records. And that would verify that I was indeed exempt, which I think has been the erosion of our personal privacy. How is it that your own experiences through COVID, obviously, and then also these other broader observations about Alberta, how is it that they've kind of led you to this location, though, where independence is on the table, right? There's a lot of money that has been leaving Canada for various foreign entities, but now

we're dealing with misspending of so much of our taxpayer money that I'm getting to the idea that this isn't something that's just a Canadian issue. It's systemic. I see it globally, where all these countries are coming to a place of being financially bankrupt. We're being bought and paid for piecemeal. There's this deep distrust of big international institutions like central banks

and the World Economic Forum running through this conversation. She's also really concerned with illegal immigration into the country. So to me, I see Alberta being a bit of a beachhead, a place where we can keep that last refuge of freedom or at least start it so that there is freedom in Canada, because I think that freedom is going to be a thing of the past. So there was a referendum on the issue you would vote to secede tomorrow? Oh yes, yes,

indeed, yes, absolutely. The practicalities of doing it, right, like, do you think they can be ironed out in a way where Alberta comes out in a good place, right? The fact that comes out in a good place, right? The fact that you would have to buy back all this federal infrastructure. You know, several business leaders have raised the concern that people might not want to invest here. I guess I'm just wondering people like yourself, or what would you say to people you haven't really thought this through? No, the oil still gets out of Alberta. It still manages to find its way down to Texas. It'd be wonderful if we found other ways to get it to the East Coast. There is definitely a demand for our natural gas and I think that more countries will want to invest in Alberta for that. If you separate? I think so, I think so. I don't think that they're

going to stop wanting our natural gas because it's a means of heat. Just what are your concerns around? Do you have any real concerns around separation? Right because and I say this with no judgment. I don't see any judgment from you. It's like a radical thing to do. You know I don't mean to use that word in a judgmental way. Like it's like a it's an extreme thing to do. Right? It's not a new thing. There are many countries that have done similar, you know? And so... I would say that would also be a radical thing.

And hopefully without the violence, I would hope that as Canadians that we could actually, you know, have the conversation of saying, well, you know, things aren't working out particularly well for us, we've been waiting for a very long time for things to change, is it worth it? I think so, especially when I do see a lot of values being disintegrated and a lot of other people's ideologies and values being foisted upon me.

And just when you got up there and spoke in front of the auditorium and you said that it's time that people need to start talking about politics, is this what you're talking about? Politics and religion. Like we can't shy away from these questions because they're hugely important of why are we here? Do we actually have a purpose? And just like how religion plays into your views on independence. Do you feel like if Alberta was an independent nation, you would be more free to to follow those values?

Or like, I'm just I'm just trying. We paused here because this man walked up to Sonia to whisper something in her ear. Turns out it was about us. I know, I know. Yes he's a grade five teacher at the local Christian elementary school. And he's saying it's a CVC. Yeah and I knew that. You introduced yourself so there was no surprise there. And really when it comes down to it the media can put their spins on things and I don't know what you will do with my words, but hopefully they will accomplish my sediments. That would be our hope as well. Sonia actually says that she's a proud Canadian, but given all the concerns that she's mentioned,

I asked her whether this is really about removing herself from a country that she doesn't recognize anymore. Remove myself from the Canada, I think if anything I want to provide a place where there is still those Canadian values that people can come to. And I welcome Canadians to come to Alberta. Music Today is the worst day of Abby's life. The 17-year-old cradles her newborn son in her arms.

They all saw how much I loved him. They didn't have to take him from me. Between 1945 and the early 1970s, families ship their pregnant teenage daughters to maternity homes and force them to secretly place their babies for adoption. In hidden corners across America, it's still happening. Follow Liberty Lost on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. So look, there's no polling that any of us have seen on the question of separatism in

Three Hills specifically. We do know that provincially, the polling shows around 30% of the province expresses support for going it alone. But it's higher in rural and small town Alberta. We drive around residential parts of the town and Jason knocks on a few doors and for sure there are red signs up around town for Cam Davies, the separatist candidate. Though I would caution anyone from reading too much into that. I am Pat Elliott. The red sign on my lawn is because someone coming and was telling me about this fellow, his name is Cam. Anyway,

he was telling me about this stuff and I'm like, yeah, okay, you could put a sign on my lawn, but I don't support the idea of Alberta separating from the rest of Canada because Alberta is an integral part of Canada. You know it's funny, I was, the reason I came here was we were staying over at the Beth Western and I was going for a morning jog and I jogged past your house and I said, oh, here must be some separatists. No, I am definitely not a separatist. I'm Alberta born and bred and I've lived here most of my life.

And yeah. You have an attachment to Canada all the same. Canada is like, I have a daughter that lives in PEI. Is she going to be needing a passport to come and visit me? Or do I need one to go visit her? I should hope not. Ray Wildman is the town's mayor, and he believes that people like Pat, who don't want to separate from Canada,

make up the majority of the town. We drove out to this industrial park where he does business as both mayor and head of a family business that makes custom woodwork. My son right there. Come on in, it's like a field trip. Ray moved to Three Hills from Saskatchewan when he was 16 and he's really proud of his town.

We think rural Alberta is as close to heaven as we're going to find on this great earth. So. Well, I just wonder if you could elaborate on that for me and, and maybe just if you could have in your mind like speaking to somebody who who maybe is not from Alberta. I have to swat the ball back to you and say well Where did you grow up? Toronto And I live in Toronto. I asked that question, you know with my own real curiosity

People ask me all the time. What is grassroots Family values are at the core of this kind of thing. Traditionalism is at the core of it. Faith is often a close partner to grassroots. I think it is. But I think that Alberta mindset that hike up your boots and get to work and make something yourself flows from these rural places more easily than it might in an urban centre where the masses of people have a harder time maybe standing out and becoming visible contributors to the ecosystems that they share. Whereas here, you can let your thinking run wild and you can create your own way of doing

things and you can be your own. There's more room to be yourself. But we're also a society or a group of people out here that was forged through hardship. I mean, I'm not saying that everybody isn't but out here you You battle pestilence plague weather fire flood frost all of those natural things that these guys battled to forge What this place currently is? I mean, I think they're still at legacy Do you want to I mean I feel like I feel like the question I want to ask next is... How is it then that the people here have become so frustrated

with the cities, with the country at large? What works in the city, people don't necessarily want here. Where can we go here without getting into deep political mud? But mud isn't... I don't think where you want to wallow. Wallowing is akin to self pity which I don't. I don't like to cultivate and that's where I feel some of the activism for separation comes from. It feels like a woe is me is being cultivated in that wallow and I don't like it. So I'm a pretty staunch opponent to the mindset of it myself. And I'm not gonna get swept up in buying into the notion that it's the best thing for the nation as a whole.

So if you write that right down, you can jot it down and record it, I don't care. But that's how I feel. I just wanna make sure that the voices that are pushing that agenda fully understand the depth of the changes that they're asking for. And I'm not sold that that's been looked at

closely enough that we're putting we're putting gasoline on a fire without realizing how much kindling is around it and there's great danger to that in my opinion so I'm a nosy guy and I noticed that you had the Alberta prosperity project I just pulled it up because yeah. Yeah. So so they paint a very rosy picture. Yes. Of what a separate Alberta would look like way fewer taxes, you know, freedom from all kinds of Ottawa regulations will have our own military. Yeah. When you think about what Alberta on its own, Alberta Independent looks like, what do you see? I don't see long-term benefit. I just don't.

I just don't. It sounds good in the short term, but I think once all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed, you're going to find yourself in a similar position. I wish the people that are pushing for a separatist agenda had to sit in a chair like this one, the mayor's chair, for an extended period of time and understand the difficulties of trying to make change to finance, health, taxation, social service, transportation, education, the whole gamut of everything that makes our society function in a half-ways fluid manner. I just wish they could see some of the challenges that are entrenched in there that aren't going

to go away with different people sitting at the same table. ["Dreams of a New World"] Good morning. Hi. Hi, Elaine. I take it you're Elaine. I am Elaine. Good Elaine. Good to meet you. Hi Jason.

Hi Don. Good to meet you. Good to see you. This is Jamie. Hi Jamie. Don McDonald is a local realtor, retired politician. Back in 92 he served briefly as a provincial liberal MLA in Three Hills. I should mention that that party was way more politically conservative than the federal liberals. Don met Jason years ago at a town hall hosted by Danielle Smith.

He's a longtime supporter of the premier and her united conservative party. And we're having lunch here before he shows us around town a bit. And we wanted to interview Don too. He's seen the political winds changed a lot in the area, including how support for separatism often goes up and then down again. He seems to literally know everybody. But before we're allowed to interview him, he actually wanted to interview us. In each one of these categories,

you have to decide which one has the most effect. So if you think that your friends... Don has us filling out the survey that he's designed, which he says gives him a window into what factors influence how people see the world. I will quibble, though, with how sound his process is, but I digress. So in the first category, you have to basically rank how these four things affect how you see the world.

Education, race, technology, and friends. So I turn it over to know what to learn what I am? To learn the essence of my true self? This goes on for a while. What was your highest? The highest was primarily peers. So I'm a big peer pressure person I guess. Yeah, primarily peers.

I think Don's doing this mostly because he doesn't want to be misrepresented by the media. While this whole survey is going on, he's recording us too. And even though I try to ask him questions, he shuts me down every single time. Can you tell us a little bit about your history in this area? First of all, I'm interviewing you. After the survey, there was actually an interview portion to this whole thing and he asks us a bunch of get to know you questions. When you hear the word optimist what do you think of? I think of somebody who chooses to see the positives.

When you hear the word pessimist what do you think of? Pessimist? I think of someone who chooses to see problems with things. Okay, Jason, you go first. How many of these questions are there? There's quite a few. We're here for a while. We're going to order lunch. Okay. I want you to contrast populism and elitism.

Elitism is brain trust. Populism is more people. You would get the same answer from me. I'm really, I'm not trying to cop out. Am I going to start with you first every time? I... you might. Have you ever had... Elaine, I'm going to start with you. Okay. Have you ever had a friend or family member go through a painful divorce?

One they did not want. A friend or a family member. Okay. I feel like probably most people have. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It turns out that the question about marriage and irreconcilable differences wasn't so

far off from our mission in Three Hills to get the pulse of how the separation rhetoric is landing with people. While there are Albertans who have decided that a divorce is best, I gotta say that the majority of people that we spoke to were more in the unhappy marriage, kicking the tires on what my options are kind of camp. Don drove us out to a farm just outside of Three Hills to talk to a couple of his friends who have a lot to say about separation. And also a lot at stake in it, as entrepreneurs who work in agriculture. We pull up to Harold Bays' massive property where he runs, among many things, a cattle feedlot.

Dorky bit of Alberta splitting for you guys. I don't know if you guys know what a feedlot is. Where they fatten cattle. So once the cattle are a certain age, They can, they raise them and they, and then they sell them there. They fatten them basically for the slaughter. He also has about 500 cows. So Harold, Harold's also an artist.

He designed stuff. He does stuff with metal. So he made all this stuff coming in here. Yeah. Oh wow. As we drive onto Harold's property, there's this life-size metal artwork by the gate of horses and a stagecoach. Further up, there are wild rose carvings, also made of metal. It's beautiful. So he has that artistic side to him that you immediately, really, Harold, you do that stuff. And look at this house on the hill.

Yeah. It's stunning. This will be, the blue truck will be Look at this house on the hill. This is stunning. The blue truck will be Keith's, I'm pretty sure. Keith has been a cattle guy, he's strictly a grain... So Elaine, I'm sure they're going to be okay with you recording, but I didn't tell them. Okay, okay. Their other friend Keith Dirksen, a grain farmer who owns 20,000 acres in two provinces, also came by.

Harold laid out plates of pastries, cheddar cheese, and coffee for us, and he even offered me ice cream for my coffee. We started off by asking him and Keith about this current political moment in Alberta when a lot of people are talking about separatism again. Keith says that he doesn't think separation is likely, but that people in the province want a different place in confederation. When I was in my 20s, when I got done college, I worked in the oil industry. At that time we had the national energy program and you literally had the wealth ripped away

from a generation and it's happening again. Kids, it doesn't matter where you live in this country, you can't afford housing, you just can't afford the basics. And I know at my age now I'm not going to stand by and see it. I'll sit back quietly and hold my nose and vote for change. But not necessarily to separate. That's, I just can't see it. But so tie that for me to your position on Alberta's place in the Confederation. Why would Alberta's place in the Confederation change that for you? If you're not paying the amount of taxes that we are, that every Canadian is paying, you've got extra money and you can put that towards wherever you feel

you should put it. You know, we had a federal election and everybody's, we live in a country where people respect that. But at the same time, you look at the announcements, the money that keeps getting announced and being spent, that's your guys' money and mine too. And it's, we don't look after Canadians. So if you can't look after it, what's the point of sticking around?

The way you're talking now is kind of more towards separation than where you started, right? Not separation, but it would be very similar to what Quebec does. They want to do their own thing, they do it. I don't see any reason why every province shouldn't be responsible for themselves. Do you want to say to the federal government Alberta is not paying this level of income tax? No, I would just assume Alberta do what Quebec is doing and just determine their own future. But within Canada. The reason, like one of the things that's been interesting about this moment, I mean, that sort of mentality has been around for, gosh, since the 80s or longer.

I mean, what's different about this moment, it seems, is that there is a more organized, active effort to take that next step further that you don't wanna take. I don't know, Harold, where are you at with all this? I think there's been a big discrepancy in the past of, and you know, the equalization transfers has been, you know, a one-way street. Alberta's sending money to Ottawa and that needs to be rectified. You know, one of the other problems is, is we can't get a pipeline either east or west.

You know, every person is a consumer of energy. So I don't know how much fuel Keith would use, but we use about 250,000 liters of diesel fuel every year. It's strictly to produce food. You know that needs to be produced efficiently and you know we need pipelines. If you're the most environmentally friendly person on the planet and you ride your bike to the grocery store to get food, that food will be wrapped in plastic, it will be shipped by diesel fuel, and it will be produced by people like Keith and I and our neighbours. If the governments would just line up and let industry do its job. The royalties, the taxes would get spread across this country. You might be amazed at the things that could get

fixed. Some people have suggested that we're not gonna get these from Ottawa, we're gonna get these from the rest of the country, then we gotta go. Keith said he was not into the idea of separation. Where are you? It needs to change because we cannot continue down the road we are and not have a negative long-term effect on us. If we can't get from a contemptuous relationship to a collaborative relationship, at some point in time, you know, separation happens, right? What would it take for you to like hit the separation button?

Like how far off are you on that? Well, I mean, we just need to get some changes. Otherwise, you know, that's what needs to happen. Like, I mean, I heard a thing and I don't know how accurate it is. We would be the sixth wealthiest country in the world if we separate. So is that how appealing is that to you? Because it sounds like it sounds like you're not there yet.

What's that window for you? Is it six months? Is it a year? I mean, there's a growing frustration, right? You know, like our equalization payments, I mean, it's been a one-way street. We've sent a huge amount of money east. We're averaging $15 billion a year that's going out. So it's 244 billion over the last however many years it is.

So it's 15 billion a year. If we went to Quebec and said, oh, by the way, you have to send money back to Alberta to support it. How would that conversation go? But I mean, I guess the argument, I take your point, but I guess the argument is just that everyone across the country pays the same level of federal income tax. It's just that Alberta has much higher salaries that you actually, that's why you guys end up sending so much.

It's because this province is so rich. That's the argument against this, right? It's not just salaries. What about the corporate tax? Yes, exactly. It's just that because this province is so rich. Because people have taken chances and have been rewarded and been successful. We're not saying we don't wanna help,

but what we're saying is there's gotta be some responsibility on the other end. And I think that's the problem is that a lot of people, including myself, have got to that, quietly, to have got to that point where we're starting to say, enough is enough. To hear you talk and Harold, to some extent, like I think people might think that you're pro-separatist.

If it wasn't for the fact that you kind of started off by saying, you don't really think that separatism is- No, no. So I guess I wanted to ask, why not? I mean, is there, if it wasn't for the fact that you kind of started off by saying you don't really think that separatists... No, no, we're just... So I guess I wanted to ask why not? I mean, is there an attachment to Canada? Like, what is holding you back from going, saying full-on, time to go? What's to be gained by creating your own landlocked country? It's easier to reach out of a boat and pull somebody in than it is to fight them off and try and keep them in the water.

It's just easier to take people along for the ride. We're willing to do that. But there comes a point where there's got to be some responsibility. And right now you have the Prime Minister said, oh, he's in favour of all these things. But he's abdicated his power. He has the absolute power on federal infrastructure to make it happen. He's letting the premier from BC say, well, sorry, we don't want it. And he says nothing.

All he'd have to say, not saying that he has to do it, but all he has to say, or when I say do it, he doesn't have to create the infrastructure. But he has to be very clear in saying if you want infrastructure that's going across the country it's federal responsibility we will make it happen. I have to leave my wife has a appointment and I have to get her there. Thank you so much.

Hopefully we're not too much rednecks for you. We're about as bad as it gets. This is about as bad as it gets. Yeah. It's about as red as it gets. Aw, come on. I think you're selling yourself short. I think you're selling the rest of the province short. Stop, stop, stop.

["The New York Times"] Harold and Keith articulated these frustrations that we heard again and again in Three Hills, a focus on the federal government and transfers to Quebec. Long-standing bones of contention in Alberta, especially when people in Quebec have opposed oil pipelines. Don, who after many hours together actually started to forget to record us, says that palpable frustration with Ottawa that has yet to culminate into full out support for separation is widespread amongst the people that he knows in town. Daniel Smith has made it very clear that what she is promoting as a sovereign Alberta within a united Canada. That is the consensus that I see.

People are, they do not want, let's just call it the status quo, but they are patriotic, they love this country. There is an angst over how the federal government creates policy and doesn't create a climate of trust. So under Justin Trudeau there was great distrust and you remember the polls that showed that the conservatives were up by however many points. I think everybody hopes that Mark Carney might be a different cat. What were you? What do you think? Do you think Carney is a different cat?

I think Mark Carney is Kamala Harris. Lots of talk. We'll see if there's any substance. No. I am not persuaded that the talk is going to translate into real action. How long do you think he has? I think Danielle Smith has, and I cannot identify all the things that she has laid out her principles. But there is not a large window here, I don't think. And just for clarity's sake, what would he need to do? I think that if there was recognition that the trawler

bill, is it C-68? That's C-48. Oh, sorry, the tanker band the tanker band is 48 yeah yeah if that was withdrawn and if if those pipelines built if there was a real willingness to build those across the country I think that would diminish a lot of the angst but that unwillingness says to Albertans, we don't really care. So I'll tell you, so I've talked to lots of people in the last few days. And I get both ends of the spectrum. People who are done, you know, the status quo does not work,

we have to do something different. The people who, they like the status quo, we'll just keep it as it is, and there's that large segment keep it as it is and There's a large segment in between this going. Yeah, you know, we got the status quo doesn't work. We got to do something What does that look like? So a time frame for that? So let me ask you this question. What do you think would happen to those people in the middle if? If they didn't feel like This was going in the direction that they wanted

to go into. What they need. Well, and that's where I think Danielle Smith's willingness, because she's a bottom-up leader. She's listening to the people, right? And so she's going to listen. There is opportunity for a referendum. And she's made it possible to do that. What would people do if there was no change? The separatist parties that are driving a wedge here,

trying to drive a wedge right now, that, you know, we're going to change all this overnight, that's naive. This is... Any kind of change is a process. It's going to take time. Does that mean that she's this bottom-up leader who's listening?

I mean, I feel like the counter-argument to that is that she is placating to a minority and I think the criticism is kind of pouring gasoline on a fire by allowing this That the threshold to move to a referendum to be lowered, right? I mean what like how would you respond to that? Absolutely disagree. Okay. Yeah, absolutely disagree. If you have a threshold that is too high, that's cutting things off at the knees.

So what she has said, let's listen to the people. If there is a consensus for a referendum, then we will let the people decide. And that is bottom up. That's saying, let's see what the people have to say. And I think that's why Daniel Smith has such support, is because she has been able to verbalize and advocate for a really strong Alberta. Can I just ask you about Daniel Smith? I mean, you're talking very positively about her. I've heard several people here talk quite positively

about her. That might be, well, I don't know. I don't know if surprising is the word. I want to put something to you. Outside of, well, certainly maybe in Toronto and Ottawa and other places, the way that people kind of talk about her and refer to her is not always,

it can kind of sometimes be in like jest, right? Like, oh, there she goes again, like at Mar-a-Lago, like placating herself to Trump and the administration. You know, Mark Carney made that quick quip about her that's like, oh, we're sending Doug Ford down to Washington. We're sending Danielle Smith. Oh, wait, no, we're not sending her. You know, I don't want to say she's like a punch line,

but some people like don't really understand her popularity. I just wonder how you would respond. Yeah. So how does corporate media portray her is one of my questions. And I think one of the frustrations that Albertans have is that often, I think we're portrayed out here as very provincial. What do you like about her? She's brilliant.

I've heard her numerous times. The ability to think on her feet, to ask questions back. I don't know many politicians that are as open and willing to have whoever get up and ask questions. We think back to the Wexit thing. 2019, liberals get elected, re-elected for the first time, Trudeau was in, and people were starting to talk about separation.

It pulled decently. There was this movement and it fizzled pretty quickly. Do you think that this separate moment is going to be the separate move, separatist movement that's independent movement right now is going to sort of fizzle or flame out or do you feel like this is different that this one has legs? This is going to be something we're talking about for a while. I think it has legs. Um, why?

Because I'll give you an example. So, I know someone whose wife grew up in Quebec. And she was talking to her nephew. And she just said to him, the feeling here in the West is very different than the Quebec separatism. Quebec separatism was about kind of a cultural thing, you know, language and those things. In the West, it's about dollars and cents. It's about economics. And so there is there's more appetite, they seem to think, in the West for it. Again, do people want to separate? But it's, we talked about this earlier over lunch and in a marriage, if there is one of the spouses that will not be willing to change, then somebody says, we're irreconcilable. This doesn't work. So there's opportunity for the country to recognize the value that Alberta

brings and that and and they can accommodate and change and work with with Alberta and that's what Albertans are hoping for, I think. So we're just on our way out of Three Hills after two really great days of reporting. We talked to a lot of people and Jason, how would you characterize the pulse of the town at this pretty integral political moment? One thing that struck me about talking to people in and around Three Hills was that contrary to what the polls seem to say, there are not a lot of committed separatists that we found. Yeah, we found a few. Some of them didn't really want to talk to the media, which is their prerogative.

But we spoke to way more people. I mean, almost everybody we spoke to, no matter what their position on this, has deep, deep resentment of the situation with Ottawa, be it about pipelines or transfer payments, equalization, Quebec, the federal liberals, Trudeau, Carney, a lot of disaffection. And even people who aren't Separatists and who say, I do not believe in this, they want Alberta's lot to change within Confederation and they

are really hoping that Mark Carney and Danielle Smith can change things. Because there are a lot of people who said they don't believe in that now but give it a while and if things don't change they could be pushed to slam that yes button. One thing that I've been thinking about is that a lot of the people that we talked to pin quite a bit of hope on Kearney they want them to do really big things like re-hauling equalization payments and multiple pipelines going across the country. And even if there is that political will

from this federal government to do this, these are complicated and hard things to do. And you do wonder if the expectations are such that disappointment is almost inevitable. I think one of the big questions is how much will people accept as good enough in Alberta? If there is one pipeline, or if there's progress towards one pipeline,

will that tamp down people's disaffection? Will that tamp down some of the separatism or soft separatism interest? A lot of that I think might rest in how Daniel Smith responds to it. If she sees a partial victory as a victory, if she's going to see some clear progress as really, really good, let's put down our sabers. the people out here really believe in her. They'll follow her with that But if she sees, you know

Some pipeline approval but doesn't see enough or she wants two or three and they only get one or There's pipeline approval, but no federal transfer overhaul Does she you know not support that? So I think the temperature controls as it were the, I hate to say this, but the climate controls on this whole situation may rest largely with Danielle Smith herself. Jason thank you so much for doing this with us this was really fun and it's great to have you along for the ride. This is a great road tripping pair. It's been fun.

Great. Super. Alright, that is all for today. Again, this upcoming Monday, people in Old Dildesbury, Three Hills will vote in a provincial by-election and what's really notable here is that it'll be the first barometer of how much Alberta separatist sentiment could translate into action at the polls. We'll be watching that really closely. This episode was produced by Elaine Chao, Jason Markossoff, Mackenzie Cameron, and me.

Frontburner was also produced this week by Matthew Amha, Ali Janes, Joythish Ngupta, and Lauren Donnelly. Our YouTube producer is John Lee. Our music is by Joseph Shabason. Our executive producer is Nick McKay-Bloakos. And I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you on Monday. MUSIC