Front Burner - Infighting, allegations of racism plague Green Party

Episode Date: June 21, 2021

Federal Green Party Leader Annamie Paul made allegations of racism and sexism against some inside her own party after a tumultuous week that saw a potential challenge to her leadership and a Green MP leave to join the Liberals. With a possible federal election looming, CBC’s Rosemary Barton and David Thurton join us to explain what this all means for the future of the Green Party.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. that were so racist, so sexist, that they were immediately disavowed by both of our MPs as offensive and inflammatory. So you might have seen a pretty extraordinary press conference from Green Party leader Annamie Paul last week. This was following the loss of a Green MP to the Liberals

and an attempt to dethrone her as leader. Paul addressed infighting and called out racism and sexism inside her own party. She even had a few choice words for the prime minister. I say to you today, you are no ally and you are no feminist. Your deeds and your words over these past weeks prove that definitively. This coming from the first Black person and first Jewish woman to lead a federal party. Today, how did we get here? And what does it mean for the future of the Green Party? I'm joined now by CBC's chief political correspondent,

Rosemary Barton, and political reporter, David Thurton. David, Rosie, it is so great to have you both here. Thank you so much for making the time. Hey, Jamie. Hello. Okay, so let's get started here. People may be familiar with the broad strokes of the story by now, but I just want to recap a couple key points here. So on June 10th, Fredericton MP, Jenica Atwin, one of three green MPs says that she's crossing the floor to join the liberals. You know, the past month I've been at a crossroads. It's been in a word distracting. And so I'm going where I can do my best work on behalf of my community and for the people that I care so deeply about. And she says that one of those distractions was infighting over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And David, I wonder if you could just briefly recap what that infighting was about.

Yeah, sure. Not a problem. In May, the Green Party tweeted through Annamie Paul's account that the party calls for an immediate de-escalation in the violence and a return to dialogue as a means to seeking a peaceful solution to the situation over there. And enemy Paul goes on to say that, you know, violence and confrontation will not bring any resolution and it will only bring more suffering. And Atwin responded, you know, that that statement was inadequate. And she called for what she said was an end to apartheid in Israel.

And you'd think that that would be the end of it. But things got even more worse. You had Paul's senior advisor, Noah Zatzman, writing on Facebook, Noah Zatzman, writing on Facebook, accusing Jagmeet Singh and other politicians, including other unspecified Green MPs of antiLGBT, and pro-Indigenous sovereignty, and Zionists with a bunch of exclamation marks. So yeah, that outrages people in the party. It comes out that his contract is not being renewed. Party leader Annamie Paul does not criticize or disavow Zatzman. We should probably just note that, you know, Annie B. Paul isn't just, you know, the first black woman to be elected the leader of a federal party.

She's also converted to Judaism about 20 years ago. And Rosie, can you talk to me about the role that those social media posts from Zatzman played in Jenica Atwin crossing the floor? And then in these calls, essentially to oust Annemie Paul as leader? I mean, they do seem to be sort of the straw that broke the camel's back, if you will. The Green Party has been plagued with divided opinions on the Middle East since I've been doing politics. This is sort of a regular occurrence that the Green Party cannot come to a real consensus position on the Middle East. The difference now is that, well, as David said, the leader is Jewish. And her senior aide not only made these statements that were obviously offensive to people with different views,

but that he purposely went after their own MPs, their own sitting MPs, suggesting that he didn't want them to be reelected. That is not really the kind of, you know, team approach to politics that you would want from a senior aide. Jenica Atwin, you know, says that this was a factor in her decision to leave. She says it was not the whole ballgame. It's not the only reason she left. But feeling personally attacked for a position that you have inside the party is probably not a great feeling. I mean, that certainly was the catalyst. Even from there, I think we could have worked through conflict. I was open to that, but it didn't happen. So, yes, unfortunately, I don't meet all of the criteria of that list. And I just it was difficult for me to do my work in that environment.

I would also say that the Green Party is perhaps differently than other political parties, very much usually OK with people having different positions on policies. This is sort of a regular occurrence. And leaders don't generally sort of put the thumb down on people who speak out of turn or take a different position. So I think that was also part of the issue is that Jenna Catwin was being shut down with her position. Healthy debate is wonderful. It's ideal. It's how we get good policy. So it's not about her position at all. And it's about what came out of, you know, the lack of communication around reaching, you know, perhaps an understanding. Probably worth noting here as a bit of a sidebar, but since crossing, Atwin has changed her position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be what seems to be more in line with the liberals. So she previously said there were no two sides. And now she says there's been suffering for both Israelis and Palestinians. And her position, it's pretty

close now to the one from Annamie Paul's tweet, hey? It's certainly not where she was at when she originally tweeted. She also said that, you know, anti-Semitism is not acceptable in that statement. It is a complete change of opinion, in my view, and closely aligned to what the Liberals would want and expect her to say as a Liberal. To be clear, if Jennica Atwin had continued as a Liberal MP inside the party,

saying the things that she said previously, it would have been problematic for the Liberal Party. And the Liberal Party, contrary to the Green Party, is much more disciplined and has much bigger expectations about what and how you can speak out. Well, you know, we've had conversations about this and about my stance, and it's very clear to me that there are other colleagues in the House, in the Liberal Party, that would support my views, but also support the idea that we can work towards, again, understanding. So, I mean, it'll be interesting to see how that relationship plays out in the future. But coming back to the Greens, then just five days after Atwin crosses the floor, there's this emergency meeting of senior party members.

And it initially looks like they'll be voting on whether or not to start the process of removing Annamie Paul as leader. But then, David, things turn suddenly in that meeting, right? And what seems to have caused that shift? Yeah, yeah. If I could just maybe take you into the room, into that meeting. Please, please. I would love to be in the room in that meeting. Yeah, yeah, no, yeah. The meeting lasted more than three hours. And I was getting updates via text message from, you know, my sources. You know, people were laying out arguments as to why, you know, Annie Meepal could not continue on as leader. I was hearing that a letter was produced that was laden with racist tropes. When that letter was presented at the meeting

by that faction that was trying to get rid of Annamie Paul, people were shocked with the contents that were contained in that letter. There was an immediate reaction from people in the room, from, of course, Paul supporters, and others, including MPs Elizabeth May and Paul Manley. So yeah, I'm told that this letter was a key point in that meeting. It's hard to really say whether or not this was, you know, that thing that saved Paul from, you know, not having to face a non-confidence vote. But we do know this, that Paul's team wasn't really sure that she would survive this vote. They knew they were going into the meeting with more people undecided or outright against her. And this letter was presented.

The non-confidence vote didn't happen. Instead, they went into camera and, you know, there was this ultimatum that we all know about that was issued afterwards. And tell me a little bit more about this ultimatum and what it was. Yeah, so I'm just going to flat out read it. It's to ask Annamie Paul and Paul Manley, so the other MP, to organize a joint statement and a press conference where Annamie Paul would repudiate Noah Zatzman, his attacks and explicitly support the Green Party of Canada's caucus. So, you know, two MPs.

Otherwise, a vote of non-confidence in the leader would take place as per the Green Party of Canada constitution. So, you know, no confidence vote, but just this order that, okay, you need to condemn the comments that played a key role in creating this controversy. Show support for your MPs. And if you don't do that, well, then we're going to get rid of you or begin the process to get rid of you. Okay. And I want to get to this press conference in one moment. And I want to get to this press conference in one moment active, contributing, respectful, attentive member of federal council.

She has attended few council meetings and when in attendance has displayed anger in long, repetitive, aggressive monologues and has failed to recognize the value of any ideas except her own. of any ideas except her own. Yeah, you know, and Amy Paul said that, you know, this just plays into racist stereotypes. It perpetuates these stereotypes. And this is a description of a Black woman that a white man would face. The angry Black woman trope is the oldest one on the books for Black women.

That we act in a, when we speak with conviction, that we're aggressive, that when we are not happy, we always have to be very angry, and that when we seek to lead, we are acting outside of our place. We are acting in a superior way. your weight. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

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In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Okay, so now Annamie Paul gets up and she gives this press conference. First woman of color, first black person, and first Jewish woman ever elected to lead a major federal party. It was never going to be a walk in the park. And Rosie, does she do what the ultimatum called for? No, she doesn't do any of those things. I should be clear that

we heard more from Annamie Paul last week than I've probably heard from all year. It was press conference after press conference at a time when, you know, we can talk about whether that was the best political strategy. But at that particular press conference, there was no move to denounce the comments of her former aide. And she said that the MPs, her last two MPs she had supported her. I am thankful to the majority of our councillors who chose to reject those allegations. I thank them sincerely for their confidence in my leadership, and I look forward to continuing to work with them. And that was where she left it. And in fact, she went much further than that.

She not only called that letter racist, demonstrating racist and sexist comments, but she also said that the prime minister was to blame for the state of her party. The Liberal Party of Canada has demonstrated that it is hell-bent on winning their majority at almost any cost. By their own admission in recent days, they have sought to sow division and to create disarray within the Green Party of Canada

for their own political advantage in key regions where Greens are surging. And said that he was, quote, no feminist and, quote, no ally because of the way he undermined her party and her leadership. A real ally and feminist doesn't end their commitment to those principles whenever they come up against their personal ambition. This was, to me, as someone who's been here a long time, a very curious press conference, quite startling in some of the comments, not the comments around allegations of racism and sexism. I understand that Ms. Paul may believe that that is what was behind this. And certainly that's her experience. In Ottawa, we have conservative strategist Semhar Tekkast. I think for enemy and people and girls who look like enemy, this is bigger than the Green Party.

You know, people described her press conference as wild. I'll describe it as empowered. She stood up to the Green Party officials who, you know, according to her, made racist allegations and sexist allegations and said, I'm still standing and you are not going to take me down. But the allegation that in some way this had anything to do with the prime minister seems to me fairly absurd. In politics, this happens. Floor crossings happen. It has even happened with the Green Party. Elizabeth May previously took someone who crossed the floor. That is sort of what competitive politics is about. But it is not for any leader, I think, to make sure that another leader is okay and comfortable and competitive and won't lose members of their own party. That is fundamentally a leader's job.

Is to keep a handle on your team. And make sure that everyone is happy on the team. And that's the part that Annamie Paul here is responsible for. The Liberals were opportunistic. A hundred percent. Saw an opportunity and took it. But I don't think that the Prime minister is demonstrating that he isn't in some way not an ally by what his party did in this instance. I mean, Annamie Paul dug in her heels

in that press conference and said, I don't, I'm not buying this. I'm not going to go down for this. And this has nothing to do with me, really. To the people of Canada, I ask you directly, of Canada, I ask you directly, how many times will we allow Justin Trudeau to get away with pushing strong, competent, capable women out of politics when they are seeking to serve? And how much longer will we allow him to do it with impunity? Today, I am here to say that I am one woman that he will not push out of politics and he can believe it. She also talked about the finance minister, Chrystia Freeland, as well, right? Tell me a little bit about that. Yeah, she also pointed to Chrystia Freeland as someone whoity in this, you know, for being his female shield against all of that. She also has a role to play.

She also was in these conversations with with Jenica Adwin. Chrystia Freeland is not someone who would be easily used by anyone, just as someone who's had done lots of interviews with her and has a lot of experience with her. And she also shot back and said to Ms. Paul and said that this is not how any feminist would react to question the feminism of another. And now we're sort of in a whole other world, right, Jamie, where it's not just about the Middle East. Now it's about feminism and racism and sexism, and everybody's pointing fingers at anybody else. I think the other place where the argument for Ms. Paul becomes complicated is to suggest that Jennica Atwin, herself a woman, doesn't have the agency to make her own decisions.

Also sort of belies the idea that this is about feminism, because surely a female MP, a woman MP, can make her own decisions about where she wants to be. She was not kidnapped by the Liberal Party. She had a conversation with them and decided that that's where she wanted to go. On this topic of, you know, all the threads that have now come into this, David, this idea that Annamie Paul has faced racism from people in the party establishment, This is by no means a new allegation, right? Like the Toronto Star in particular has been reporting on this.

And what kind of allegations have Green Party insiders made? Yeah, no. For some time, the Star, you know, her hometown newspaper has been doing some extensive reporting on, you know, allegations of racism within the party. some extensive reporting on allegations of racism within the party. They obtained a lengthy email that was sent to dozens of party staff from Zahra Mitra. She's the Green Party's diversity coordinator. And she accused unnamed officials of causing irreparable harm by denying reports in the Star about the internal party strife, because for some time there have been news reports coming out

about the infighting within the Greens. She said the party has a real problem with racism and that top-ranking officials have hampered the efforts to make the organization more inclusive. The Star also reported that party insiders say that green officials, you know, were sabotaging the first black leader. Party operative Sean Yeoh, who worked on Annamie's Toronto Centre campaign in the by-election, said that, you know, she was facing significant resistance from the party establishment. You know, he said it was very hard not to see this process through the lens of race, gender and religion. He goes on to say, I want to be very clear that I'm not trying to paint this organization as overtly racist. I am saying that there's been prolonged, profound challenges in NME being effective in this role. And I observed that the leadership level of this organization is primarily white, he said. I know, though, that not everyone in the party agrees that racism is at the heart of why Paul is facing these calls to resign, right?

And so what are you hearing from people who are saying that this isn't about racism or sexism, but about leadership here? Well, yeah, you brought up that leaked letter, right? And there are some serious and real allegations against Paul, that she placed a gag on MPs, which, you know, Greens do politics differently. They don't whip votes. There isn't this internal centralized structure where the leadership of the party is controlling what MPs are saying. So they are saying that her leadership style and the way she was doing business was against, you know, the green philosophy. So yeah, there are some really serious allegations that

Paul has to answer for. Okay, sounds very thorny and complicated. It's messy. Rosie, big, big surprise here. We're likely just around the corner from the next federal election. So I'm wondering where you think the party goes from here. You know, a lot of people placed a lot of hope in Annamie Paul for all the things that she does represent and for the direction the party does want to go in. Progressive, reflecting Canada, more left-leaning, trying to tap into some of the people who may be disillusioned with other progressive parties in parliament like the NDP and the Liberals. So there was a lot riding on this. You do not, as a federal leader, want days and days and days of news coverage

about whether you are a good leader. That is not helpful to you, and it is not helpful to your party. It begins to make people question whether you can effectively do your job. You want headlines about your ideas, the things you're going to defend, your problems with the government. So this is what the Green Party has to sort of manage now over the next number of weeks. If we are, for instance, heading towards a fall election, Annemie Paul should be much more concerned about, first of all, winning her seat in a riding where it is not a given in Toronto Centre, where she previously lost in a by-election, and then growing the general level of support for the Green Party across the country, something that people really believed was on an upward track. You know,

at any given time, they sort of pull between six to eight percent. In order to grow, they need to tap into different parts of the country. Jenica Atwin was the beginning of that. So they don't know whether that's now going to translate into anything more. It's a problem. And they need to, Ms. Paul in particular, needs to show that the party can get past this and can focus on the issues that make the party attractive to a whole bunch of Canadians that are looking for something else. I have to say that, you know, we don't really pay a lot of attention traditionally to the Greens here in Ottawa.

So the next couple of weeks are going to be something. I know a lot of political reporters are going to be keeping an eye on things to see whether this ultimately ends with the downfall of this country's first elected black federal leader, or maybe she makes a strong comeback. All right. David, Rosie, thank you so much. This is a really fascinating conversation. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Jamie. All right, so some news before we go today.

I am very happy to report that over 75% of eligible people in Canada have received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine. received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine and 20% have now been fully vaccinated, including me. A big, big thank you to incredible pharmacists, Rasham, and also to all the people who've been working so hard to vaccinate people across this country. So keep it going, please, please. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk to you all very soon. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.