Front Burner - Inside controversial Trump biopic ‘The Apprentice’

Episode Date: October 11, 2024

'The Apprentice' premiered at the Cannes Film Festival and received an eight minute ovation. The film follows a young, awkward, ambitious Donald Trump during his bid for respect among New York City's elite, and his formative relationship with notorious NYC lawyer and political fixer Roy Cohn.But in the time since its Cannes debut, team Trump has unleashed a pressure campaign to keep the film from the public.Dan Bekerman is a producer of 'The Apprentice', and joins us for a discussion about the film's complicated journey to theatres, and the challenges of making art about powerful people.For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. Former U.S. President Donald Trump has existed in the public consciousness really since the 1970s. Would you like to be the president of the United States? I really don't believe I would, but I would like to see somebody as the president who could do the job.

And there are very capable people in this country. It's a story many will be familiar with. New York City heir to his father's real estate business turned real estate magnate of his own, turned reality TV star, turned president of the United States. Different parts of that story have been told many times over, on television, podcasts, and documentaries. Trump has been the butt of the joke on shows like SNL for some four decades now. What makes you think you can defeat Joe Biden this time? Well, I think I'm doing even better this time in terms of Hispanic. I like to say I put the panic in Hispanic. And people are sick of having an alleged criminal like Joe Biden in the White House.

They want a convicted criminal, someone they can trust to get the crimes done right. But there's a new film that's been the subject of great controversy, which stands to tell the Trump story in a way that we haven't seen before. The Apprentice follows a young, awkward, ambitious Donald and his bid for respect among New York City elite. And really, it centers around his relationship with notorious New York City lawyer and political fixer Roy Cohn and the shortcuts, cheats, and bully tactics that Trump would eventually learn to wield on his journey to power. The film opened to rave reviews, an eight-minute-long standing ovation at the Cannes Film Festival, to be exact. But in the time since, Team Trump has unleashed a pressure campaign to keep the film from the public.

And just like that, a film that seemed prime for Oscar season was suddenly struggling to find its way to theaters. So today we're joined by Dan Beckerman, a producer of The Apprentice, for a discussion about the film's complicated journey to theaters. So today we're joined by Dan Beckerman, a producer of The Apprentice, for a discussion about the film's complicated journey to theaters, Team Trump's bid to cancel the film, and the difficulty of making a movie about a man everybody already feels that they have figured out. Dan, thank you so much for coming on to FrontBurner. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to have you here. So before we get into the narrative of the film,

Donald Trump is one of the defining figures of the 21st century, one of the most famous men in the world. And his story is one that's been told a bunch of times already, right? In books, documentaries, television shows, podcasts, more. What made you all decide to tell his story and why now? Well, you said it very well, which is that everyone feels they know Donald Trump. They know the persona. But that's the thing. They really know the persona that he is projecting out into the world. And what I think this movie accomplishes is it really shows how he learned how to create that persona. And he learned it from this lawyer named Roy Cohn, who was a very notorious lawyer.

But he was extremely skilled at building a narrative that would kind of win in in legal cases and he really imparted this knowledge to donald and he created uh well he showed donald how to create that persona that now we're all so familiar with but what we don't know as well is, you know, kind of who's behind the curtain. You know, I've started using the metaphor of the Wizard of Oz near the end when Dorothy and Tin Man and Scarecrow and Cowardly Lion arrive at the castle and they're confronted by this giant green face. The great Oz has spoken. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. Who are you? I am the great and powerful wizard of Oz. You are? I don't believe you. No, I'm afraid it's true. There's no other wizard. But then Toto pulls back the curtain and you see there's a very human kind of vulnerable man behind that curtain who's projecting this image of omnipotence of that green face.

But who is that man behind the curtain? We're much less familiar with that. And that's how I'm seeing the movie is really, is just showing how that all started, showing how Donald, the person learned to project this sort of allful image that he wants us to see. You know, we meet Donald in this film when he's in his mid-20s, right? He's kind of this awkward playboy, desperate to gain the respect of his father and New York City's elite. And it's at this point when he and his father are subject

to a discrimination lawsuit from the State Department for allegedly refusing to rent to Black families. And, you know, it's at this juncture that he meets Roy Cohn. And just tell me a little bit about, you know, how Cohn enters his life and, you know, what happens in those early days. Yeah. It's one of my favorite parts of the movie where you're just seeing this young, ambitious guy. And it's surprising to many people who watch the movie how much you get emotionally engaged with this young guy who just wants to get out from under his father's shadows. Donald, the Chrysler Building is in foreclosure. Well, the Chrysler Building- And you want to open a hotel around the corner.

The Chrysler building is a landmark, so it's absolutely fine. It's like adding a deck chair to the Titanic. Dad, sooner or later you might have to accept the fact that it could be right. And maybe I know what I'm doing. Look, Donald, I respect what you've done. I really do. I hope so. I hope so, Dad. I really do. You know, his father pretty clearly made him feel like he was never good enough

and sort of makes all the children in the family feel that way. And Donald wants to prove himself. And he's trying to prove himself in the world of Manhattan in the 70s and 80s where, you know, it's not like it is today. It was pretty gritty. It was a pretty tough uh world that uh that manhattan and uh but he wants to show he can mix with the with the uh you know the millionaires and you know there's a scene at early in the movie at le club where he he's bragging to a young model he's on a date with that uh he's the youngest member

ever to be accepted to that club there's a skill to being a billionaire it's a talent you have to be born with it you have to have a certain gene it's a pretty cool place yeah and they say i'm the youngest member ever admitted that must be a big thing it is it's a very big thing and that's where he meets roy and roy's you know having uh drinks with with you know pretty shady characters many of whom he represents including mob bosses and things like that and and roy sees donald and you know roy was an you know pretty remarkable ball of contradictions himself because he was a gay man, but would frequently use information he had from the gay community against people in court cases. But he saw young Donald and he invited him to his table. What's your name, handsome?

I'm Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Nice to meet you. Roy Cohn. The Roy Cohn from all the papers and everything? That's right, the Roy Cohn from all the papers, that's right. Yeah, you're brutal. I'm brutal, that's right. And from that moment, he took him under his wing

and it started this relationship that, you know, that both men had different objectives. You know, Donald wanted to be accepted in this elite world of Manhattan, elite, although probably quite shady. And Roy, you know, there was possibly an element of romance in Roy's mind because, you know, a lot of Roy's boyfriends were tall and blonde. because a lot of Roy's boyfriends were tall and blonde. But he really saw in Donald a vessel that he could impart his worldview onto. And his worldview was really shaped by these rules.

Roy called them his rules for winning. You want to know how to win? I'm going to let you in on a little secret. There's rules. Roy counts three rules of winning. The first rule is the simplest. Attack, attack, attack. Rule two.

Admit nothing. Deny everything. Rule three. This is the most important rule of all. Okay? No matter what happens, no matter what they say about you, no matter how beaten you are, you claim victory and never admit defeat.

Never admit defeat. You want to win, that's how you win. Never, ever, no matter what, never admit defeat. And that might seem kind of familiar. And also I see that third rule as being about showing any weakness, showing any vulnerability is I think the subtext of that rule. And we can see all those rules really, they're quite simple and we can see how they have been adopted and integrated into really kind of everything Donald does.

Is the idea here essentially that Trump schtick, the bluster, the lying, the bullying, the vying for power, the charisma, is essentially an imitation of Roy Cohn? as the master because donald definitely did adopt roy's worldview and you know kind of climbed into it like a second skin that he's been wearing ever since and yet roy used those rules for winning cases when he was representing shady people uh you know he also is someone who is responsible for having the rosenbergs executed uh even when he was a very young man working with McCarthy. The electric chair awaited the two convicted spies as the hour of their final reckoning approached. And then it was over. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg had paid their debt to society with their lives. For the first time in its 177 year history, a United States civil court had decreed and followed through on the execution of two native-born americans on the charge of espionage but donald applied that world view

and those rules in a very different way than roy had done so i don't think it's as simple as donald is just copying roy i think he took he understood the power of that of that those sort of techniques or that world view but he instead of just applying them to legal cases like Roy did he applied them to himself and he really used them to create this image uh like we were saying in the beginning you know this image of someone who cannot lose donald j trump the man who with a golden toilet who cannot lose uh and he by creating that persona he actually gave himself an advantage in the business world and then then later in the political world where, you know, that's

just a compelling character, especially in America where people, you know, the idea of the American dream is so fundamental in the business world, for instance, you know, his reputation in negotiations with other business people, he would get, he would get things through, he would get an advantage in deal making, he was able to, you know, really short change, you know, people working for him, not pay bills, using the currency of that character that he had created. And he's he recognized how powerful that was, and then he applied it to politics. I should say, you know, this film is obviously fictionalized to some extent, but also,

of course, of course, based on a lot of real things. And just for people listening, how much of this film is fictionalized? Well, the film was written by Gabriel Sherman, who is an investigative journalist, written by gabriel sherman who is an investigative journalist uh very accomplished writes for vanity fair and the new yorker and you know he also wrote um the loudest voice in the room that became a series about fox news and had real world impact on fox news a lot of the you know heavily verified and well-sourced uh writing he did in that case and he he did that in this case as well Gabe you know he every aspect of the movie is based on uh meticulous research that said you're right it is a fictionalized account um it's a story it's a movie um but

where it matters you know where there's you know some controversy, I think you'll find in every case that it's based on very thorough research. Well, here's one of those moments, which I can imagine will ring alarm bells in Trump world. It is the depiction of Donald Trump's alleged 1989 rape of his wife, Ivana Trump, an account which was based on her own testimony under oath in 1990. I'm sure this is something you all knew would inspire some controversy. And so what is the thinking that goes into a scene which portrays a former U.S. president as a rapist? Yeah. And, you know, I cared a lot about that. I'm not interested in being, you know, accusing real people of things that are baseless or being sensational. And, you know, as, as the producer on this project,

who is kind of, frankly, the most responsible in the sense that, you know, the company is, is owned by me, the producer of the film is owned by me and uh you know i have i have to take that responsibility extremely seriously and um so i did a very deep dive into that subject matter and spoke with gabe about it and looked at the sources for the information spoke to many lawyers about it and you know i was compelled to believe that the scene that we have in this movie is really quite fair based on the information that's out there. First of all, it's based on an under oath or deposition that Ivana gave herself about this incident during their divorce proceedings proceedings and in the under oath statement she describes a scene that uh it's not exactly as it appears in the movie but i would say what she described is

actually worse than what's in the movie and that she did you know to be thorough and fair she did later in a book that was written about her and sort of there was a disclaimer that was put on that book and in that book it also describes a scene that's quite about her and sort of there was a disclaimer that was put on that book. And in that book, it also describes a scene that's quite close to what we have in the movie. But in that book, there was a disclaimer that she gave in which she did not deny that it happened. She sort of tries to clarify that she didn't mean to imply that I think her very fairly close to her exact words were, while I felt violated as a woman and these events did happen, I didn't mean to imply that it constituted rape in the criminal sense.

Right. I think I just got it right. In a literal or criminal sense. In a literal or criminal sense. Thank you for that exact quote. But that's pretty close to what she said. And later when he was running for president, it's true, she further distanced herself from it and said that he's the father of my children. He'll make a great president. She did say that as well before she died. But it was important to me. I know it was important to Maria Bakalova, who played Ivana in the movie, to do justice to Ivana as a person. And I think a lot of the tragedy that is in this movie is in that relationship between Donald and Ivana. And, you know, to me, what I see in it is a kind of loss of humanity in that scene that I do think is,

is tragic. People who've seen seen the movie there's all kinds of reactions but some people many people feel surprised at how much empathy the film builds for this person um especially early in the movie when you see him kind of struggling to prove himself um but obviously neither do we do we shy away do we we don't sugarcoat it uh some of the things uh either and overall I think it adds up to to like I said I think something that's sort of a tragic loss of humanity that occurs in this story as the young Donald Trump kind transforms into the guy we're very familiar with right now. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem.

Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo.

50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. You know, as we've talked about, the film is about the making of Trump, the character, how he learned to leverage power and people to get his way. And in some ways now, art is kind of imitating life a little bit. When the movie premiered it, can the film, as I said,

receive this long-standing ovation? It appeared to be on this trajectory for a wide release and even critical acclaim and success. But then Team Trump became involved. The famously litigious Trump issued a cease and desist letter and the billionaire Dan Snyder that put up equity for the film reportedly sought to block its release.

ABC and CBS also refused to air commercials for the film during the presidential debate. And you have since had real issues getting the film to theaters. And just can you walk me through the series of events from Canada today? Yeah, well, first of all, I want to start with the end which is that we've made it through all those challenges this is a good news story we have made it through the movie is coming out friday um you know and we have uh you know a pretty exciting release happening um you know there's all kinds of reviews coming out and they're pretty, pretty darn positive, I have to say. And the movie is coming out.

But, yeah, cut back to the Cannes Festival. We had this incredible screening, you know, pretty elated, elated feelings all around. And then I think it was like an hour after the screening, one of the actors showed me on his phone. Oh, there's a tweet. And the tweet ran from the trump campaign and then a couple days later uh there were cease and desist letters with all kinds of you know frankly pretty ridiculous accusations from from trump and his lawyers threatening you know us but also any distributor who would dare to uh bring the movie to audiences and so what that did is honestly that was a chilling experience because i saw how it did affect the big corporate

distribution companies that typically bring movies out um you know when they're when they're going to go to a wider audience you're typically working with a big company that's either a subsidiary of an even bigger company or just in its own right, a giant kind of entertainment company. And those companies were intimidated by those threats from Trump. And there was a real chilling effect in the industry where, you know, we privately had conversations with people from many of those companies saying they loved the film and wished they could take it on distributed but that they couldn't take the risk on after those threats they couldn't take the risk of you know being sued by Trump they couldn't take the risk of alienating what they would see as half the country you know

even though the film like we were talking about is not really a political attack piece at all it's that's not what it is nonetheless those fears uh ruled their decision making process and i think i was really witnessing uh you know one it, it's almost like Christmas Carol, where you're seeing, you know, the possibilities of the future. And, you know, what I think I was seeing is, okay, yes, there's a direction the country, the United States could go or any country could go, where a power, if a person is powerful enough, and they have low enough regard for the laws and conventions that that surround things like free speech they can suppress speech they can suppress stories without even you know changing any laws they can simply use the they can use fear to suppress um stories that they don't like uh as long as they're willing to do it and the

companies that would normally you know distribute art and movies um are willing to be intimidated it can happen very quickly and I think that's that is essentially what was happening and you know for me I I like Ali Abassi our director um is uh Iranian Danish and uh his previous movie to The Apprentice Holy Spider there was an extreme reaction from the Iranian government to his film which was very consequential for him personally. And, and, and you know it was certainly banned in that country, but it was, it went further than that in terms of consequences. And to think that his experience with the Iranian government, you know,

suppressing his speech in his next movie in United States is happening again with a, just a different powerful person. It says a lot. You said you're on track for release Friday. What changed? We had one distributor, Briarcliff Entertainment, run by a guy named Tom Ordenberg, who has a history of, frankly, being brave in the face of these kinds of challenges.

You know, he was the distributor of the movie spotlight that the Catholic church was very unhappy with among many others. And frankly, he, you know, sorry to be crass, but he was the only distributor with enough balls to take on our movie. And so we have, you know, been working in it with very little money and very little time. But we have a plan to release the movie and everyone can go see it this weekend. And I do think people seeing this movie is a statement as well. It's a statement that, you know, powerful people shouldn't be able to silence voices that just are inconvenient or unflattering to them in their minds.

That should not be something that's easy for them to do. One thing I wanted to ask you about is Dan Snyder's role in all of this. I don't know how much you can say, but he said this is the former owner of the Washington Commanders NFL football team. He is a friend of the former president. Originally, he believed it's been reported that this would be a flattering portrayal of Donald Trump when he agreed to help fund the film. And, you know, he was allegedly approached by his son-in-law who runs a production company, and he walked out of the screening when he finally watched the movie. And just how exactly is it that this mega billionaire became one of the

main funders of a film that Trump is now so strongly against? Yeah, I mean, look, I've learned over the course of my career that it's extremely difficult to finance any movie. So, you know, is there always a rhyme and reason? It's not always easy to see of how a movie gets financed but you you basically uh you you have to do what you have to do uh and the fact is this movie would not have been made without kinematics uh the investing into it and um you know they're they've put out statements about uh you know why they felt they needed to part ways with the project, and I'll just let them speak for themselves on that. But ultimately, I'm grateful for anyone who helps get the movies made that I feel passionately about. There's usually only one very narrow path up the mountain to get a movie made, and this was ours. And final question for you. Are there any things that you learned about Donald Trump in the making of this movie that surprised you, right? Or I think you're going to say yes to this.

So what are the things that you learned about him that surprised you or any ways that your opinion or sense of him had changed at all over the course of this production? Yeah, I think it just got me to understand more deeply, you know, how a person, you know, cause you know, everybody in the world, we're all people, even the ones that, you know, a lot of people don't like, you know, we are all people. And how does a, how does a person get from A to B? How did how did what happened that that led to this character that

we're all so familiar with you know having this role in our society and i think that's where the movie really has something of value for audiences which is we all understand ambition we all can understand in some way feeling that you need to prove something to the to you know maybe to your family or to yourself um and to watch this character being built by him by donald he built this character he learned these techniques from Roy and he used them to create this persona of the character he called Donald J. Trump. I see that as being him as a storyteller ahead of his time because that where my mind went on that is that we're in this era where everyone has discovered the power of creating a public persona for yourself, where you curate meticulously how you're perceived in this public way through often through social media.

We've all entered that era where that's kind of, you know, the main ingredient we use in many of us in our careers socially is to create this projected image of ourselves that gives us real world power. Donald learned to do that from Roy in the late 70s and early 80s. So to me, it's actually completely intuitive that that skill of his would resonate in our era. Dan, this is super interesting. Thank you so much for coming by and wishing you the best of luck with your release. Thank you so much. All right, that is all for this week. All right, that is all for this week.

Front Burner was produced this week by Joytha Sen Gupta, Matt Mews, Matt Amha, Aja Sauter, Iman Bare, and Ali Janes. Sound design was by Mackenzie Cameron and Marco Luciano. Music is by Joseph Chabison. Our senior producer is Elaine Chao. Our executive producer is Nick McCabe-Locos, and I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you next week.

For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.