Front Burner - Inside Indigenous backlash to fast-tracking mega projects

Episode Date: July 24, 2025

Many First Nations leaders across Canada are furious about two laws just passed by both the federal government and Ontario's provincial government.The Protecting Ontario by Unleashing our Economy Act and the federal Building Canada Act, better known as Bill 5 and Bill C5, are meant to fast-track large development projects and have faced similar criticisms.Many Indigenous people say the bills stomp on treaty rights and ignore the need to get their consent for development in their territories –– and this could shape up to mean some big battles across the country.Alvin Fiddler, Grand Chief of the Nishnawbe Aski Nation, a political organization that represents 49 Ontario First Nations, joins the show to unpack the controversy.For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

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Prime Minister Carney and all the premiers, where they talked Trump into provincial trade and getting major infrastructure projects going across the country. But there's a potentially big sticking point in those major projects. Many First Nations leaders across Canada are furious about two laws just passed by the feds and the Ontario government, which are meant to fast-track projects, but which many Indigenous people say stomp on treaty rights and ignore the need to get their consent for development in their territories. This could shape up to mean some big battles across the country.

Today, I'm speaking to Alvin Fiddler, Grand Chief of the Nishnaabe Asking Nation. It's a political organization that represents 49 Ontario First Nations. Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler, thanks for coming on Front Burner. Thank you for the invite. On Tuesday at the first ministers meeting, Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan announced an agreement to work together to strengthen trade and plan new pipelines and new rail infrastructure. This is really building on an agreement that Ontario and Alberta signed a couple of weeks

ago. But some of the big things that they would be exploring would be moving Western oil and gas to a not yet built deep sea port in James Bay in northern Ontario and also studying the possibility of a railway line that would go from the Ring of Fire region in northern Ontario, which is of course rich in minerals, to processing facilities in Alberta or Saskatchewan. And many of your member nations are close to the Ring of Fire and James Bay. What do you think about this agreement between the provinces? Well, I think the missing piece in all of this is just a lack of any type of conversation

with the people that live there. For example, one of the proposed sites that we're hearing is Moose, near Moose Factory. And speaking with Chief Peter Wesley from Moose C know, has said that this was a total surprise to him, to hear about this in the news and the people that live there. Something as major and something as significant as a proposed seaport in their community. So obviously that tells me that the province, in this case, Ontario, just totally failed to even consult with the people that would be impacted the most. The Premier's argument kind of at this current time

is that we have these unfair tariffs. You know, there's a need kind of more than ever to grow the energy sector, be more resilient and self-reliant as an economy? Folks, we can do two things. We can sit back and basically watch our economy die and jobs being lost, or we can move forward, work collaboratively. What do you make of that argument? Yeah, I think I've been quite vocal in the last few months that using someone like Donald Trump as a boogeyman to have a duty to uphold what NDRIP

calls for, to ensure that First Nations have their right of free, prior, informed consent be respected. There are these two key pieces of legislation that many Indigenous people are taking issue with when it comes to all of this development discussion, right? There's the Protecting Ontario by Unleashing Our Economy Act and also the Federal Building Canada Act, better known as Bill 5 and Bill C5, and both are meant to fast track large development projects. And they've really faced similar criticisms. And if you could flesh that out a little bit more of what are your kind of central criticisms

for those two pieces of legislation. I mean, there are several concerns that our leadership have expressed the last few weeks or the last few months about Bill 5 and now Bill C-5. The number one concern that we have is both Ontario and Canada's failure to acknowledge their obligations, whether it's their treaty obligations or their constitutional obligations, to have a meaningful conversation with First Nations. There are several concerns that our communities have expressed. One of the questions that has been raised over and over again is what happens if the community says, no, we're not ready? What if they say no to a major project and their territory? Will they be arrested if they resist?

Will they be sent to jail? Similar to what happened with Chief Donnie Morris of KI back in 2008 when he and most of his council were sent to jail for two months because they said no to a mining company I was exploring in their territory. So there's some real concerns about where things are headed, including the total disregard for any types of environmental protections, whether it's Bill 5 or Bill C-5. And we've right now, over the last few months since May, many of our communities have been dealing with forest fires and evacuations. And at the same time, they're expected to engage in these major,

major initiatives. And it's just impossible for a community like Sine Lake to engage when 3,000 members of their community are displaced. And we know that with climate change, it will only get worse if there's, you know, if these environmental protections are taken away. So there's just so many things that we are concerned about, that our leaders are concerned about, and the fact that Ontario and Canada so far have refused to listen or to have said that they will not amend or repeal Bill 5 and Bill C-5 is a huge concern. Following the criticisms of C-5 in particular, there was a summit where the Prime Minister met with over 600 indigenous leaders from across the country last week.

This is the first federal legislation to put indigenous economic growth at its core. I fully recognize, we fully recognize there's many diverse perspectives, which is exactly why we've assembled this group. Clearly, the federal government wants a reset here. Did that happen in your view? Those that showed up there, at least from the Nan territory, expressed their position, which has been that we oppose both Bill 5 and Bill C-5. We love our land, we care about our land and we care

about the waters and we want to put ourselves in the driver's seat that when it comes to any type of resource development in our area that we need to be the ones to drive that, not Ontario or Canada. Were you reassured in any capacity by what you heard during the summit? Not at all. In fact, I think it's even more concerning after being at the summit in Ottawa and also being at the meeting in Muskoka there two days ago, that even though Prime Minister Carney or Premier Doug Ford may say things that, you know, trying to assure First Nations people

and leadership that they will respect the treaty or that they will consult. And I have been listening and my colleagues listening very carefully to all the comments. But what we're talking about principally today is how are we going to build together? They want to move quick. They're tired of talking. That's what I heard from all the chiefs around the table. All we hear is talk, talk, talk. Let's start moving forward. going to build together. I agree 100%. But that's not what Bill 5 and Bill C-5 say. If you read those two pieces of legislation, all the power and authority rests with them. They've given themselves the power to do whatever they want or whenever they want to when it comes to resource extraction in our territory.

That's very troubling. Coming back to you, you were mentioning the meeting with Ford as part of the First Minister's meeting on Monday as well. There was a meeting with Indigenous leaders there and he said at the time, for the most part, I can't do something if they don't want to do it and that you can't move forward without their collaboration and buy-in. The number one thing I heard is start moving. Stop talking, let's start moving because this door is only open for so long that everyone seems to be working together right from the municipalities to the provincial, federal

and First Nations communities and we're going to work together and collaborate. And what do you think about those comments from Premier Ford in particular? and First Nations communities, and we're going to work together and collaborate. What do you think about those comments from Premier Ford in particular? Do they assuage your concerns at all? Not at all. In fact, what I said at the time was that I hope that his words were recorded because that's not what the bill says. There is currently a legal challenge that has been put forward by four of our communities

to challenge Bill 5. These laws were purportedly brought in to address the threats from south of the border of the Trump administration. And yet, they are structured in ways that we become what we say we're threatened by. threats from south of the border of the Trump administration and yet They are structure in a ways that we become what we say were threatened by select First Nations nine at this point say the bills represent a clear and present danger to their ways of life and reconciliation and the reason why they're challenging it is because the province wants to assume all the power and authority over our lands and resources and even though Premier Doug Ford may

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Do you think that there are ways to make the consultation process itself less bureaucratic? I'm not sure. I think what's also concerning is that both Ontario and Canada have not defined what consultation means to them. I think we're pretty clear from our end what consultation should be or what it should look like. But we haven't heard that from Ontario or Canada. And how

would you describe that? Well it's having a respectful meaningful dialogue whether it's with Ontario with Canada for them to come to our own table rather than us flying around the countryside attending their meetings in Ottawa or in Muskoka and having maybe not even the time to express our issues and concerns. So it's creating a process, a forum where our leadership and also the rights holders can have a respectful dialogue with Premier Doug Ford or on the case of Bill C-5 with the prime minister.

You know, you mentioned the legal challenge and can you tell me a little bit more about what is the outcome that is desired there? Well, I think the legal challenge that was launched, their goal is to stop Bill 5. And you know, it stood out to me that the nations that have taken part in the challenge have also just taken pains to say that they are not anti-development, right? That this is not about not ever developing projects.

Yeah, that's true. I think many of our chiefs have sort of delivered the same message that we are not necessarily anti-development. I think all of us want prosperity for all our communities in our nation, but it's the process I think that is very troubling that, you know, the fact that Ontario and Canada are giving themselves all the power and authority to do whatever it is that they want to do in our territory, that is what is concerning. That's why I've been going to these assemblies in Ottawa and also the one in Huntsville earlier this week is to deliver a message that First Nations need to be at

the table. The one that I went to on Monday was I call it a side table discussion. The main table, which was on Tuesday, where the Prime Minister was also part of that forum, that First Nations again were totally excluded from that meeting. You've really laid out the criticisms that you have of these two pieces of legislation that are meant to fast track projects, as well as the meetings so far that are meant to fast-track projects, as well as the meetings so far that are meant to assuage concerns about them. But I'm wondering, you know, given what Prime Minister Carney has promised, that First

Nations rights holders would have wealth and prosperity for, quote, generations to come, do you see opportunities that these laws could bring to the communities that you work with? Under the the current version of these laws, I would say no. And I think what's what's especially troubling is the Prime Minister Mark Carney at the forum last week said that he was not open to any any changes or any amendments to Bill 5.

Do you think the legal challenge could force his hand on that? I mean, it's hard to predict how the legal challenge will unfold or what the decision will be, but I can understand our communities that took part in this lawsuit that they have every right to defend their interests and their communities. And I hope that how this case unfolds will be favorable to them that Bill 5 will be amended or repealed. There's something that I want to play for you, Chief, if that's all right with you. Our regular host, Jamie, she interviewed the federal energy minister, Tim Hodgson, a few weeks ago. And throughout this conversation, you've been bringing up your concerns around what if we want to say no to a project?

What happens then? And we tried to get him on the record about that precise thing, whether or not the government would proceed with a project that was rejected by Indigenous leaders. So I'm hoping you could just have a listen. Okay. I just want to be clear about something. Let's say an Indigenous group gives a hard no to a pipeline that crosses treaty land. Would you move to build the pipeline anywhere?

Again, you're talking about a hypothetical and I'm not gonna, what the prime minister has been clear is we would need consent from indigenous peoples from provinces and territories. So you wouldn't. We will deal with it when we get to the actual, I think people are trying to get to hypotheticals. The goal is to get to people being supportive. There are a lot of tools people have to get to places. If we're not getting

consensus, it's going to be very challenging. There are a lot of projects, like I went through, there are lots of projects where we are going to get consensus. Our preference is to work with, to help everyone get to a good place. Our preference is not to drive wedges between people. Our preference, like we're in a trade war. We gotta pull together. What do you make of what he had to say there? Well, the problem that we have is that these provincial

or federal officials, whether it's the environment minister or the prime minister or Premier Deguefort saying that, trust us, we will respect your treaty rights. Our people have heard those words many times before and we don't trust them. It's as simple as that. I'm curious, we were talking about opportunities and are there examples in your eyes of big development projects that have been a win-win for all the parties involved?

One that gets pointed to is the liquefied natural gas project in Kitimat, BC, and the key proponent there is the Highs Love First Nation. And can you think of any examples, whether that one or another one that you think have been positive and just tell me about why you think they worked. Yeah, no, for sure. And I can give you one example from our territory. We call it Watanaga-Nyap Power to connect 21 of our communities to the provincial grid and it's probably like a 1.8 billion dollar project that started seven or eight years ago and now is just completing the hookups to the

communities and that was a project that was based on the needs of our communities it was community-led it was sort of a tripartite project involving Ontario and Canada, First Nations majority ownership and the project went really well. So I think we have a blueprint that is based on, again, it was community led, it was community driven. All our communities knew about what the impact of the project would be to their land and to their water and what the revenues would look like and what the impacts of the project would be to their land and to their water, and what the revenues would look like and what the... When you say that there's a blueprint there,

what would you describe as, you know, if there was like a short list here? Yeah, I think first of all with Wate Power, and again, it's a big project that was community-led and community-driven. To me, that is so key that our communities were part of that discussion even before we hit the shovels on the ground, that they knew exactly what this project would mean to them. And that is so important when you talk about major projects, you know, the ones that Bill 5 and Bill C-5 about that That First Nations need to be at the table right from day one Something that struck me while reading up on the LNG project in in Kitimat

You know one of the defining things well at the first it's also about like not only participation, but but ownership You know for the Heisler like it was also about involving their own people in understanding all of the technical expertise that comes from these projects and that they were the ones to build trust within their communities on that. And do you see kind of those elements as being really kind of crucial in the consultation process? For sure. And again, it's going back to the Wate Power experience that communities recognize that at that time they may not have the

necessary capacity to or the capacity to effectively engage in a project like this, but they quickly built a plan or they create a plan how that would happen and then our First Nations, you know, our membership were, you know, were effectively involved in that project because training and skills development was a big part of that project. And so that they have the capacity now that if there is another project that comes along that the capacity is there. So to me that was a big, you know, that was quite significant. Could you see a version of say the ring of fire development that could work like applying

those principles that you've been talking about? Yeah, for sure. I mean, anything is possible if you do it the right way. If there is respect and trust, that if there's a relationship there between all the parties, that we can do or we can build anything. Grand Chief Albin Fiddler, thank you for your time. Me too. Me too. Me too. Me too. Me too. Me too. Me too.

Me too. Me too. Me too. Me too. Me too. Me too. Me too. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.