Front Burner - Inside the push to decriminalize drugs in Canada

Episode Date: October 1, 2021

The views from two Canadian cities where the opioid crisis is driving a new movement for decriminalization, with the Ontario Harm Reduction Network’s Nick Boyce and Chief Const. Mike Serr of the police force in Abbotsford, B.C.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. As a society, we've really been using a legal frame in terms of how we think about containing substances. But this has not been successful. It's not been productive. It's caused social harms and with racialized communities disproportionately affected.

So that is Dr. Leslie Buckley, the chief of the addictions division at CAMH, Toronto Centre for Addiction and Mental Health. She spoke to my colleague Lauren Pelley this week after CAMH joined a growing push to decriminalize drugs in Canada. Toronto has become one of the epicenters of the opioid crisis, and soon the city will be asking Health Canada for an exemption to drug possession laws. They're following in the footsteps of Vancouver, which has already made the request, and which is grappling with a devastating opioid crisis of its own. Today on FrontBurner, a view from both those cities. In a bit, we'll be talking to Chief Constable Mike Sear of the Abbotsford Police Department and the Chair of the Canadian Police Chiefs Association's Drug Advisory Committee

on how we approach drug enforcement in this country and what decriminalization could actually look like. But first, we're going to be speaking with Nick Boyce, the Director of the Ontario Harm Reduction Network. Hi, Nick. Thank you so much for being here. Hi, thank you for having me. I just want to get a better idea of what's going on in Ontario right now. And I wonder if we could start with you talking about what we've seen in Toronto in the last few months. What's the state of the crisis like here? It's worse than it's ever been. In Ontario, we know that opioid-related deaths have been going up every single year for over 20 years.

Things started really escalating, though, around 2016-17. And we've tried to implement a number of harm reduction measures since and I can't imagine how bad things would be without those measures in place but just from January to May this year in Ontario there were about 1,200 opioid related deaths. Niagara region had record opioid deaths in March, a bit of a rebound in April, and is spiraling back the wrong direction. You know, we've been top five in overdose deaths in the province and up to number two in the province, only behind Toronto.

Toronto Public Health says a record was also set last month. Paramedics responded to 34 calls for suspected overdoses in December that ended in a person's death. Preliminary data shows between January 1st to January 26th of this year, there were 30 fatal calls for suspected overdoses. And just in August, so in August, Toronto paramedics responded to 689 non-fatal overdoses and 30 fatal opioid overdoses. That's just in Toronto. And why do you think we're seeing such a spike right now?

It's entirely related to the fact that we criminalize and prohibit drugs. Because we prohibit certain types of drugs, there's no quality or potency assurance of those drugs. And drug prohibition incentivizes suppliers and drug dealers to find newer alternatives when we restrict the drugs that are out there, when we restrict the chemicals needed to make them. and it incentivizes more potent drugs because they're easier to to move around and transport and is it your sense that the drugs are getting more potent they're getting more dangerous absolutely and we have evidence to show that we have we analyzed the samples of drugs on the streets um you, it used to be a few years ago that we had cocaine and crystal meth

and heroin. When it comes to the opioid drugs, there's very little heroin left on the streets. It's been entirely replaced by fentanyl or different fentanyl analogs. And even those drugs now we're seeing are being contaminated with other additives. So about 50 to 75% of the so-called fentanyl samples actually contain now benzodiazepines in there, which is another downer type drug. So then I wonder if we did go ahead with these calls to decriminalize, you know, possession. I just wonder if you could take me through what that would actually look like. We're all sort of sitting around the table trying to figure out what is the new model, because what we're doing doesn't work.

When we criminalize, I think it's important for people to also understand the history of the drug laws. So our drug laws in Canada are set at a federal level. So this is a federal issue, really. And the provinces are being left to pick up the health consequences. The rules around which drugs are legal and which are illegal are not based on any science or evidence. They were based on social control and who was using what drugs at the time. Many people might think that drugs like heroin and crystal meth and cocaine are illegal because they are dangerous, but they're actually more dangerous because they are illegal.

I think it's hard for people maybe to understand that. they are illegal. I think it's hard for people maybe to understand that. But when I think about alcohol, if that was a new drug that suddenly came onto the streets, the stories we would hear about alcohol would be people crashing their cars, people getting really violent. And we would think that alcohol is an incredibly dangerous drug. And it can be for some people, but for many people, it can be used safely. And the same is true for all those other drugs. If you know what you're getting, you know the quality, you know the consistency, all these drugs can be used in relatively safe ways. Because we prohibit them, it makes it very hard to know what you're actually getting. And criminalization also causes us to think a certain way about who uses what drugs. And it causes us to divert resources which could be used to help people

into policing, ineffectively trying to police the drug situation. In a scenario where these drugs are decriminalized, would people get their drugs from a government-sanctioned store, like how we buy marijuana right now? Would there still be a risk of an unsafe supply? What would it look like to you? So there's two things that we need to discuss. So there's decriminalization, where we remove any criminal penalties for using drugs. And it could be that we remove criminal penalties just for using or just for possession, but we may look to

also, you know, would people who still traffic or produce or sell drugs still have criminal penalties? So there's different models we could look at. What we're calling for in Toronto right now and where other municipalities like Vancouver have done some work is around just decriminalization. So it removes the criminal penalties. What it doesn't do is fix the supply side of the problem. So we're not talking right now about a legal regulated supply. That's not what decriminalization does. Decriminalization removes the criminal penalties, but it doesn't allow for a legal regulated supply. I do personally think that is something we need to consider. But as a society, the models we have for legally regulated drugs are either a prescription model where you would get a prescription from a medical doctor to access your drugs.

That perhaps that might be one model to consider, but not all drug use is medically related. It's not just about health. The other models we have are cannabis and alcohol and i don't think either of those are particularly good models either because with those drugs we haven't just legalized them but we've completely commercialized them and you know you can open a magazine or turn on the tv and see ads uh pushing those drugs and incentivizing buying them and using them. And I don't think that that's necessarily the model we want either. So we're not sure. I don't know what the model looks like, but something has to change because we have thousands of dead people and tons of wasted

resources. You know, Vancouver is an example, maybe, of how progressive thinking around safe injection sites and safe access sites has progressed over the years, right? But there are a lot of people that feel like it's backfired and that the evidence is right in front of our noses because the overdoses are so out of control there. So, you know, why do you think that that decriminalization, I guess, you know, in whatever form it takes, is the root here? People think that harm reduction maybe has a failed approach, or injection sites are a failed approach, but that's mistaken. The situation would be far worse if we didn't have these programs and services implemented and in place. But injection sites were never intended to respond to such a toxic supply and be open, literally trying to keep people alive. They're about trying to connect with some of the most marginalized people in society,

bring drug use off the streets into an environment where you could start connecting with them and start building relationships with them and getting them support. But they, again, they are a band-aid. They are not addressing the root cause of the problem. And the root cause of the problem and the root cause of the problem is criminalization and prohibition. So we don't put resources into trauma counseling, into housing, into employment. We spend it on ineffectively policing drugs, which has never stopped the supply. We spend it on prisons and courts, which doesn't stop people using.

How optimistic are you that we could see some movement on this, that in the near future drugs could be decriminalized? Because it does seem to me like more and more influential groups, CAMH, for example, came out this week, are calling for this. But on the flip side, I would say this wasn't a big issue in the last federal election. Yeah, it was extremely disappointing to see this not get more traction in the last federal election. to see this not get more traction in the last federal election. Before COVID-19 came along, this was the biggest public health crisis that we've seen in generations. It's hard to feel optimistic when the numbers just keep escalating,

when so many people I know are dead, when the people I'm working with on the front lines are completely traumatized and burnt out. But I have to hold on some kind of hope because what we're doing just absolutely isn't working. We have to fundamentally shift. And what does give me hope is that we have seen in other jurisdictions around the world, countries trying different approaches. And while they're not perfect, there are other models out there. So, but I think this is also coincides with big awakenings across the country around a history of genocide and indigenous issues and racist colonial policies. These drug laws are rooted in all of

that. And I think it coincides with many other social issues right now. Okay. Nick, thank you so much for this. We really, really appreciate it. Okay. Thank you very much. I'm going to go. through Angel Investment and Industry Connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years.

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Police Department. He's also the chair of the Canadian Association of Police Chiefs Drug Advisory Committee. Hi, Mike. How are you? Thanks so much for coming on to the podcast. No problem. Thanks for having me. So we just talked with Nick about how provinces right across Canada saw this big and incredibly tragic jump in drug poisonings. And I want to zoom in on BC here. A new report from British Columbia's coroner says suspected illicit drug toxicity deaths in July were the second highest the province ever recorded in a single month. 184 people died in July.

That's an average of six people every day. And how is the reality of the situation playing out for you from your vantage point? What do you think when you hear numbers like that? Well, I mean, it's obviously heartbreaking and these numbers, I mean, there's a good chance we can see over 2000 individuals dying in British Columbia, which would be, you know, like you're saying a record number. But that's only one part of the story. The other part is the amount of overdose calls that first responders attend to on a daily basis with COVID and everything we're managing with that. So for us, you know, we've had so much discussions on decriminalization and the impacts

on the drug laws, but you know, how do we save lives? And that's what we really need to do because, you know, in the last year, it's actually gotten worse than better. It's something we're very concerned about. I wonder if you could tell me a little bit more about what you're hearing from your officers about the kind of things that they're witnessing on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, I mean, some of the frustrating things or sad things is, you know, that certainly with COVID, we've seen, you know, an increased level of anxiety within our community. We see more people using in isolation and alone who are impacted. You know, we're seeing our drugs on the street are being cut with another drug, which is an anti-anxiety drug called benzodiazepines.

One of the challenges for us with benzos being cut into fentanyl is naloxone does not work on benzos. So we're seeing that we're having to give people more and more naloxone just to try to keep them alive so we can get them to a hospital in order to, you counteract the benzos or benzodiazepines so a lot of different things have happened you know we're seeing higher concentrations of fentanyl on our street it is an incredibly toxic drug that's hitting our streets and there is no room for error and you know that's why it's so important we get the message out just how important it is for people to really take steps to manage this. Right. Nick talked about, you know, how these drugs are becoming so much more potent, in part because they're easier to ship that way. It's one of the reasons, right, why they're becoming more dangerous, which I actually didn't know until he said that today. When it comes to enforcing the drug laws that exist on the books right now,

what are you seeing or what are your officers telling you about what is working and what is not working? Well, some of our concerns are we're actually seeing more local production of fentanyl. So labs here in British Columbia and, you know, across Canada, Alberta. So we're actually also a country that is producing this. So in the past, it was a lot of it, the majority of it was coming from China, but we're seeing other countries now starting to be part of bringing or exporting the drugs into our markets. You know, he's right when he talks about, you know, how toxic these drugs are. We're seeing, you know, many people who have used, you know, fentanyl for a while now are even asking for higher concentrations of that drug. And it's incredibly dangerous. And

for people who don't use on a regular basis, they are passing out or dying very, very quickly. So, you know, our officers are, as far as the drug laws, you know, we really do still really concentrate on those people who produce and import and traffic. But there's a lot of challenges. You know, there's a lot of people and there's a lot of younger people who are selling the drugs for the, you know, organized crime and the gangs. And, you know, sometimes it takes a long time for us to move our way up to the bigger players. And we're really getting those middle people who are very easily replaced in the system. And is the idea that you want to stop arresting the middle people? I mean, you know, at the end of the day, you know, cutting the head off the snake is where we would like to go. And we certainly are working and putting our efforts

into identifying, you know, those large organized crime groups who are really profiting and on fentanyl. But unfortunately, you know, we're so busy as well, especially a department of our size, you know, with the street level drug traffickers. I hate to say it, it's essentially a whack-a-mole at this, you know, at this point. How would decriminalizing drug possession fix that, though? And I agree with you, it's not the sole answer. It's not the panacea. You know, we certainly want to try to find ways to, you know, the elephant in the room is what is killing people is the toxic drugs that are on the street. What we would like to see is people relying and not accessing the street drugs. You know, certainly a safer supply is something that's part of our conversations on how do we, you know, how do we have people not use the, you know,

or purchase the toxic street drugs, which we know are killing people every single day, as you said. And one thing I do say quite frequently is we've de facto, despite what some people will say, de facto decriminalized drugs here in British Columbia or in the lower mainland for several years. I was just going to say that. Yeah. And in fact, we have the worst problem in Canada for drug overdoses. So what we'll argue is that, you know, we need to have, you know, systems in place and resources and pathways of care to support people not simply decriminalizing honestly will not make the difference if the difference will be how do we

direct people to supports and care how do we prevent people from you know helping them with their trauma and the issues that they're dealing with so they don't have to rely on drugs and those people who use drugs how do we ensure that the drugs they're accessing are safer drugs and hopefully try to support them on their journey? One thing I always say as a drug dealer, street drug dealer, they're trying to get a person who uses drugs to take more drugs. Hopefully, you know, a doctor or a that by officially decriminalizing these drugs, the idea is that people won't be so dependent on these, you know, street level drug traffickers that work for these large syndicates or gangs, maybe they will get their drugs from a much safer place. And also, and Nick mentioned this as well, that perhaps the resources currently directed to

policing could be directed towards other supports. Would that be fair to say that you're an advocate of that as well? Yeah, I mean, I would argue that, you know, as much as, you know, many think that, you know, policing, if we decriminalize drugs, that, you know, we'll have money that we can be, you know, reallocated to health. We don't dedicate any type of policing to addressing simple possession of drugs. So even if we decriminalize, we're still going to go after those who sell the drugs, the illicit drugs on our streets and those who are importing or producing these drugs. What I want to see is

decriminalization has to be done hand in hand with a healthcare model that provides pathways of care and support, that we will have more supervised consumption, we'll have more, you know, safer supply. I mean, these are eventually what will make the difference. Last year, the public prosecution service of Canada essentially de facto decriminalized drugs in the sense that they won't accept any charges for simple possession, unless there is a public safety risk, you know, youth or around, you know, schools or driving and things like that. So, but yet we're seeing, you know, in Canada last year, 6,200 opioid deaths. When we came out with our report for the CACP on decriminalization, it was 11 deaths in Canada per day.

We're now at 17. So, you know, more needs to be done than just, you know, us talking about decrim. We need to build up the systems in place to help people and support people. I wonder what you might say to somebody who looks at this possible next step of official decriminalization and worries about the slippery slope here. Yeah. And to be very clear, you know, that's the word, what you're talking about is a legalized

model or even maybe a regulated model. And we don't support that. And we've seen it for years. I was a drug cop in the downtown East side in the early nineties. And even then I realized that, you know, arresting people for simple possession was not making a difference. So what we're asking is for a health care or health focused approach for people who use drugs, people who are in simple possession. But we certainly were not in any way advocating that, you know, if people are accessing a safer supply, that it be done through, you know, a clinician, through a doctor, registered nurse. Drugs cause a lot of harm. And unfortunately, you know, my officers and officers around the province see that every single day and we really need to you know do a lot more in regards to education and support uh you know so that we don't see people going down the pathway

of using these very addictive and dangerous drugs so we're just saying that the arresting people going to court that has not proven to be a successful model for many, many years. So we're looking at a model where we direct people to health and supports and hopefully they can find better outtakes for their lives. Mike, sir, thank you so much for this. Really appreciate it. Absolutely happy to talk about this. So thanks again. Okay, so before we go today, we have an update for you on the Britney Spears saga. Free Britney now! Free Britney now! Free Britney! In a major victory, a Los Angeles County judge suspended the singer's father from the conservatorship, ending his 13-year-long control over her life and her money.

I'm so pleased and proud to say Jamie Spears is no longer a conservator. The decision comes one month after Spears pleaded in court for her father's removal, and after years of a fan-led movement to free her. A court-appointed professional will stay on as Spears' conservator for the time being. That is all for this week. FrontBurner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show is produced this week by Simi Bassi, Katie Toth, Ali Janes, and Derek VanderWijk. Our sound design was by Matt Cameron and Austin Pomeroy.

Our music is by Joseph Shabison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of Frontburner is Nick McCabe-Locos. And I'm Jamie Poisson. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll talk to you on Monday. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.