Front Burner - Investigating the Capitol insurrection

Episode Date: July 28, 2021

The armed insurrection in Washington, after Donald Trump lost the presidential election, shook many. This week, U.S. lawmakers heard from the police officers who tried to hold it at bay — as a committee pieces together what happened.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Elamin Abdelmahmoud filling in for Jamie Poisson. Hello, I'm Elamin Abdelmahmoud filling in for Jamie Poisson. People have used a lot of words to describe what happened in Washington on January 6th.

Riot, coup attempt, attack, insurrection. The officers who were at the U.S. Capitol that day, call it a matter of life or death. There were individuals that were trying to grab a hold of my gun. And I heard people in the crowd yelling, get his gun, kill him with his own gun. The way I was thinking is like, we can't let these people in no matter what, even if it costs my life. I swore enough to protect the public,

the member of Congress, and the United States Constitution. That's what I was doing that day, regardless of my personal safety. This week kicks off a U.S. Lawmakers Committee hearing that will investigate what happened that day, how things got so bad on the Hill, and Donald Trump's role.

Paul Hunter was listening closely to the first day of testimony yesterday. He's our senior correspondent in Washington. And that's where he joins me. Hi, Paul. Hey, how are you? Listen, I'm grateful that you're here to talk me through this. We heard from four police officers who defended the Capitol building. And you were really struck by U.S. Capitol Police Sergeant Akalina Gornel. What did he have to say? Yeah, it was, you know, all the testimony I found,

it was a real mix of, you know, anger and frustration and disbelief and a kind of sadness that it played out the way it did on Capitol Hill that day. I mean, we've heard a lot of this stuff before. We've seen the video countless times. But here it was from people right in the thick of things, what they experienced and how they felt. Aquilino Ganel was born in the Dominican Republic. As a child, I look up to the United States

as the land of opportunity and a place to better myself. From that moment I landed at JFK in 1992, I have tried to pursue that goal. Believed in the country so much, right, that he became a citizen and he ends up, you know, as a police officer on Capitol Hill, like the symbol of U.S. democracy. Like you could sense the pride in him as he spoke.

I'm always taking my oath seriously. On January 6th, 2021, I fulfill my oath once more. And then the horror and sadness of what played out. It's as if, like, with all four of them, they still are grappling with understanding or even accepting that it happened. For the first time, I was more afraid to work at the Capitol than my entire deployment to Iraq. In Iraq, we spent their armed violence because we were in a war zone. But nothing my

experience in the army or as a law enforcement officer prepared me for what we confronted on January 6th. I mean, he was called a traitor by some of the insurrectionists. I was falsely accused of betraying my oath, of choosing my paycheck over my loyalty to the U.S. Constitution, and shouted that I, I, an Army veteran and a police officer, should be executed. He was unable even to, you know, call his family and let them know that he was okay. When he eventually went home at four in the morning, he said, I had to push my wife away from me because she wanted to hug me. And I told her no, because of the other chemical that I,

my uniform had on. Sorry. At one point he said, you know, it was almost like he was still trying to figure out what was going on. And he said, you know, people in, you know, so-called Trump nation, they have gotten angry at athletes who take the knee in demonstration at times. And they say that's disrespectful, it's un-American. And then he said, Where are those same people expressing the outrage to condemn the violence attack on law enforcement, the Capitol, in our American democracy? I'm still waiting for them. So how is it that they supported

what went on on Capitol Hill that day? Isn't that disrespectful and un-American? You know, the same people who don't like it when athletes do that somehow step aside. Not only participated in this, but then those who weren't there stepped aside. Again, like the whole thing was like they're still trying to understand. It was just so sad. To be honest, I did not recognize my fellow citizens who sunk the Capitol on January 6th

or the United States that they claimed to represent. It's one thing, of course, to be confronted with the words of those people being called traitors, being called a disgrace, which were his words, but he also talked about moments where

he thought he was going to die. I too was being crushed by the rioters. I could feel myself losing oxygen and recall thinking to myself, this is how I'm going to die, defending this entrance. You know, and we saw, we've seen the video countless times from other angles, but in the testimony, we saw body cam stuff from the police and it was you're in the thick of things and it it was terrifying it was they like they you know at times they heard people say grab his gun

i was at risk of being stripped of and killed with my own firearm as i heard chants of kill him with his own gun i could still hear those words in my head today beyond the taunting you know and they're being tased and beaten with hockey sticks and bear sprayed and crushed i was electrocuted again and again and again i'm sure i was screaming but i don't think i could even hear my own voice one of them talked about several attempted to knock me over and steal my baton one latched onto my face and got his thumb in my right eye attempting to gouge it out. We heard at length what it was like against those insurrectionists on that day who were vastly outnumbering them. They were, you know, they were caught and they didn't expect it, they didn't know what to do, and you know, at times they felt like they were going to be killed.

I feel like I went to hell and back to protect them and the people in this room. But too many are now telling me that hell doesn't exist or that hell actually wasn't that bad. The indifference shown to my colleagues is disgraceful. Now, one of the testimonies that I saw making the rounds on social media was that from Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn. And one thing that he said was that black officers on that day were fighting their own battles here. What did he remember? Being racially taunted, being called an ugly, hateful, racist name that he said he had never before been called while wearing a uniform. I sat down on the bench in the rotunda with a friend of mine who was also a black Capitol

police officer and told him about the racial slurs I endured. I became very emotional and began yelling, how the blank could something like this happen. Is this America? I began sobbing. Officers came over to console me. And he recalled a fellow black officer on that day on Capitol Hill who was called that same name to his face, something his friend told him later

that he had never been called to his face before until January 6th, and it happens on Capitol Hill. Again, anger, disbelief, but sadness at everything that played out. To the rioters, the insurrectionists and the terrorists of that day, democracy went on that night and still continues to exist today. You all tried to disrupt democracy that day. You all failed. You know, one of the officers noted the irony that, you know, out in the crowd, among the other don't

tread on me flags and Confederate flags. To my perpetual confusion, I saw the thin blue line flag, a symbol of support for law enforcement more than once being carried by the terrorists as they ignored our commands and continued to assault us. And here they were being attacked themselves. None of it made any sense. Now, hearing these stories from these officers, what's the through line here? What did they seem to all share in common? officers. What's the through line here? What did they seem to all share in common?

That they were overwhelmed and left effectively on their own for far too long. They didn't have enough people. They were outnumbered. They were caught by surprise. It was incredible to hear. Again, in a country that prides itself on security in no small way, in the epicenter of U.S. democracy, sacred they call it here, that it should be left so unprotected and that those officers, and speaking on behalf they were of all the others, just felt alone. In contrast, during the Black Lives Matters protest last year, US Capitol Police had all the support we needed and more. Why the different response?

Were enough for the brave members of the MPD and later on from other law enforcement agencies? I'm afraid to think what could have happened on January 6th. Now, I think everybody will have, you know, different memories of January 6th, of watching that news footage, watching the crowd of the Capitol get more and more agitated, and having it go on and on. And remembering, like, we're watching Washington, D.C., one of the most protected places on earth. It could be, you know, you could have so many officers there within a few minutes if you wanted to.

And I think a big question that people will have is, why? Why were these officers left alone on that day? Why did they seem so completely unsupported? Do we have any answers about why that was the case? answers about why that was the case? Well, that is part of the mandate of the committee to explore and investigate what happened and why and that is a central question. What took so long for reinforcements? Was the White House a part of that is one of the key questions. There has been reporting that the National Guard was delayed in talking about, you know, taking the rally to another level on January 6th and marching with the strong suggestion that there would be violence.

You know, so why wasn't there, you know, more of a response, more preparation? Part of the argument is, well, it was it was nonspecific. Right. And officials say they're always challenged between deciphering what is, in their words, keyboard bravado and what presents real imminent danger. So there's that. The other part is, you know, I think when you look back to January 6th, you also have to look back to January 5th. Find me one person who could have guessed that in a million years, that kind of thing would have happened, that Americans would have attacked their own Capitol

building. And I think in fairness, that that was a part of it. I remember that day clearly. I was well aware of the demonstration of the rally rather down behind the White House with Trump, you know, another Trump rally. And yes, they were going to, you know, march and they were angry. They stopped the steal and all that kind of business. But I don't know anybody who thought this is going to get out of control real fast and they're going to rampage on the Capitol building. So that's a part of it as well. But what the committee is trying to find out is, did anybody put their thumb on the scale? Did anybody push back? Did anybody in the White House have a hand in how things played out and the response of authorities to it? Well, you mentioned the White House, so let's talk about its occupant at the time. Let's talk about Donald Trump for a bit.

While these guys, while these police officers were in the trenches, what do we know about what Donald Trump was doing while all of that happened? Well, we've seen the video of him that afternoon watching in that tent, I think, seemingly unconcerned slash supportive of how things were playing out. We know he was tweeting, again, seemingly supportive. One of the authors of all these new books out now on his final days describes him as being in the White House a little later on. This is a quote, as being almost giddy, as things played out that way, kind of emboldened, I think was a word that she used.

Here he is seeing thousands of his supporters basically trample up to the steps, break through barricades, all rallying for him. Only later becoming concerned at the, quote, optics as things got really bad. But remember what he said at the rally, right? He said to the crowd, you'll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength. You have to be strong.

You know, and remember the video Trump made later for which he was criticized for saying we love you or something close to that to the rioters after kind of calling them down. This was a fraudulent election, but we can't play into the hands of these people. We have to have peace. So go home. We love you. You're very special. Well, there's also reporting now that that was take three, with the suggestion being, you know, maybe the committee should find out what was on the first two takes that were rejected. How far did he go? The implication being before being forced to tone it down. The committee has said they will go where the facts take them, but there are kind of myriad directions in which to go.

And remember, it's not a court of law. You know, people will be sworn in under oath, but they can ask anything they want. They're not beholden to the regular rules in a courtroom. We have reporting that suggests that, you know, it took quite some time for the aides to convince the president to tweet out, you know, please support our Capitol Police and law enforcement. They're truly on the side of our country. Stay peaceful. That happened well into the riots. I guess from what we pieced together about what Donald Trump was up to, Trump has since been impeached for that day. Could he face any more accountability from the committee?

And what would that even look like if he did? Well, certainly, the belief is that he, yes, can be called to testify. It is unclear whether Trump could claim executive privilege, let's say. But certainly, it seems that he could be compelled to testify. The larger question, and likewise all those around him, by the way, all the people that you just talked about, the larger question is, should he be brought to testify? It would be a circus, right? It would risk derailing much of what they're trying to do. They will almost certainly call everyone around him. And as I say, without the regular rules of a courtroom in play, they can say to any of the aides that you just referenced, what did you see him doing? What did he say? What did you hear? The kinds of things that would be ruled inadmissible are fine here. In terms of accountability, effectively think of it as a fact-finding

mission. They are not in a position to lay penalty, simply to find the truth. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some

startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. So there are two Republican representatives on this committee. And one thing we heard from one of them, Adam Kinzinger, was that this really shouldn't be a political issue. And it's why I agreed to serve on this committee. I want to know what happened that day, but more importantly, I want all Americans to be able to trust the work this committee does and get the facts out there free of conspiracy. And that's interesting, because this committee initially was supposed to involve three more Republicans along with the Democrat representatives. What happened to that? Yeah, well, in a sense, Trump happened.

Fear of Trump. Trump is still out there. He is a president who lost after his first term. What often happens in those circumstances is that, you know, everybody in that party goes the other way. You're a loser. Thanks. Enjoy the rest of your time. You're a loser. Thanks. Enjoy the rest of your time.

Not so with Trump. The view remains that you need to kiss the ring. Remember, plenty of Republicans came out pointing fingers at Trump in the immediate days after January 6th, including Kevin McCarthy, the senior Republican congressman in the House of Representatives. Just because you have a personal opinion different than mine, you have a right to say it. But nobody has a right to become a mob. And we all should stand united in condemning the mob together.

Well, he changed his tune quickly, because, goes the thinking, McCarthy realized he shouldn't risk upsetting Trump because he needs Trump's backing if Republicans win back the House in the midterms and McCarthy wants to be House leader. Blatant, self-serving politics, say critics, but all of it leading to McCarthy's reversal of his view and leading to McCarthy pulling all the Republicans from the committee where Nancy Pelosi objected to some of his picks, objected because they themselves were blatant Trumpists. It's all politics, right? And then along comes Kinzinger and Liz Cheney,

two Republicans now on the committee, who, by the way, supported the impeachment of Trump, doing this evidently at some risk to their own standing in the Republican Party. There is pushback against them. Pelosi Republicans, they're being labeled. But, say Democrats, they are two people who have recognized principle and country matter. Well, speaking of those Republicans, the hearing opened with Liz Cheney, and this is someone who has openly and doggedly disagreed with the Democrats on pretty much everything up until this point. I have been a conservative Republican since 1984, when I first voted for Ronald Reagan. I've disagreed sharply on policy and politics with almost every Democratic member

of this committee. But in the end, we are one nation under God. Daughter of the former vice president, Liz Cheney, is a staunch conservative. Yeah. And she said that today at that committee, right? She strongly disagrees with pretty much every policy proposal anybody of the Democrats alongside her have put forward. But that has nothing to do with what's playing out at these hearings. The framers of our Constitution recognize the danger of the vicious factionalism of partisan politics. and they knew that our daily arguments could become so fierce that we might lose track of our most important obligation to defend the rule of law and the freedom of all Americans. A few months ago, I think most Democrats would have seen her

as an extremely powerful force with which to be reckoned, scarily so from a Democratic perspective. Forceful, smart, fierce, conservative, bona fides, ambitious, and of course, someone with a pedigree, right? And now she's effectively a darling of the left, even though she remains

a strong conservative because of her willingness to take a stand on this. You know, as she put it in her own opening statement today, there is an obligation, she said, to rise above politics. I mean, how often do you hear that in the U.S. Capitol these days? Almost all members of my party

recognized the events of that day for what they actually were. No member of Congress should now attempt to defend the indefensible, obstruct this investigation, or whitewash what happened that day. It really can't be impressed enough upon people that, you know, Liz Cheney is not someone you would even call a moderate Republican. Like that's never been a part of her career. And so it's a bit extraordinary to see her standing with the Democrats on this. So if we have this committee that's a bit hamstrung without the Republican Corporation, but still going to try its best to do its business, maybe somewhat hesitant about giving a subpoena or inviting Donald Trump to testify, what will this committee actually be able to do?

Well, you know, that's a good question. They can ask questions. They can subpoena whoever they want. They can go as far as they want. You know, as I say, this committee is not about finding guilt or innocence or punishment. It is simply trying to answer that question. What is the truth? It is something significantly easier said than done these days, but that's the goal, plain and simple. I mean, the unfortunate other fact these days is that truth is not only elusive, it is open to definition. The committee can find whatever it finds.

It will ask questions of whoever it chooses. It will hear evidence. Democrats and some Republicans will believe those facts. It is certain that millions of Trump supporters still out there will not. Yes, it's politics. Democrats have a keen interest in portraying the Trump administration and Republicans broadly in a negative light. They expect that's what will come of this. But at the same time, I mean, you know, to describe it as pure politics on the Democratic side of things is, it's not the whole story. This was a very serious thing that happened on Capitol Hill.

This kind of committee is the kind of committee that investigated Watergate, that investigated the BP oil disaster, Iran-Contra. Those were big, serious events that they needed to find answers about. This is the same kind of thing. They will put evidence out there. Americans, voters, will see what they find, and then they'll make up their minds. Paul Hunter, thank you so much for your time. My pleasure. Before we go today, on Tuesday, Bradley Barton was sentenced to 12 and a half years in prison for the killing of Cindy Gladue. The 36-year-old Cree Métis woman was found dead in his hotel room in 2011.

Barton was convicted of manslaughter back in February. It was his second trial for Gladue's death. He'd been acquitted of murder and manslaughter charges in 2015. That sparked protests and calls for justice for Indigenous women. For more on this story, you can go back and listen to our episode called Cindy Gladue and the Painful Cost of Justice from February 25th of this year. That is all for today. Thank you for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.