Front Burner - Iraq still suffers, 20 years after invasion

Episode Date: March 23, 2023

Twenty years ago this week, a US military campaign called ‘Operation Iraqi Freedom’ began in the skies over Iraq’s capital, Badgdad. Overnight, cruise missiles were launched, and by the next morning coalition forces, led by the United States, were on the ground beginning their invasion of Iraq. Today, Mustafa Salim, a reporter with the Washington Post’s Baghdad bureau, reflects on the 20-year legacy of the US-led coalition’s invasion of Iraq, the great lie that facilitated war, and the chaos it all created. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. 20 years ago this week, on March 19, 2003, a U.S. military campaign entitled Operation Iraqi Freedom

began over the skies of Iraq's capital, Baghdad. You just saw it, you just heard it. Approximately five to eight minutes of an intense airstrike against targets in Baghdad. Remember, this is a city of five million people. We can only imagine what a terrifying state most of those people are presumably in right now. Overnight, cruise missiles were launched over the city. And by the next morning, coalition forces led by the United States were on the ground, beginning their invasion of Iraq in earnest. American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people, and to defend the world from grave danger.

To that point, the war was marked as a humanizing mission by the allies here in the West, a way to liberate the Iraqi people from authoritarian rule. And a leader in Saddam Hussein that the American government, along with others, accused of hoarding what they called weapons of mass destruction. Indeed, the facts and Iraq's behavior show that Saddam Hussein and his regime are concealing their efforts to produce more weapons of mass destruction. We will meet that threat now with our Army, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard and Marines, so that we do not have to meet it later with armies of firefighters and police and doctors on the streets of our cities.

That claim about WMDs, famously, was a lie. There were no weapons of mass destruction, but that lie gave way to a successful regime change effort and would give rise to a violent counterinsurgency. 20 years on, and the Iraq War is believed to have left between 200,000 to more than a million people dead. But despite that, it's a conflict for which no one has ever been held officially responsible. So today we're talking to Mustafa Salim at the Washington Post Baghdad Bureau. He grew up through the war in Baghdad. And we're going to talk about the 20-year legacy of the Iraq War and why, despite the passage of time, so much remains unsettled. Mustafa, thank you so much for making the time today.

Thank you very much. I wonder if we could begin on March 19, 2003. I know you were just 12 years old at the time, living near Baghdad. And what do you remember about that time as you saw the aerial strikes taking place over Baghdad? Like actually before the war took place, by the time that we were preparing and like storing lots of food, stop going to school. I remember being scared because the term of war that we heard from our parents who lived the 80s war, the only thing we heard about war is meaning bombing and death and we hadn't lived it yet. So by the time we were hearing the bombing and the advancing of the coalition forces, we were feeling scared of the unknown. What's gonna happen to us? How is this gonna to be this new chapter of our lives?

Can you tell me a bit about how your family got through that part of the war? Well, my dad started to get lots of food supplies, the storageable food supplies, mostly dry food. Like everyone else, they thought that this war can take even years based on their last experience with war against Iran, which lasted eight years. So we started to start loss of food and we lost power, electricity. So we were also storing lots of oil so that we can use it for fire and for cooking.

And we stayed home just listening to the bombings. And listening to the radio and hearing about the advancing of the U.S. troops. There have been clashes between American troops and Iraqis at Najaf, which is only about 100 miles south of Baghdad. So they could be in Baghdad in the next two or three days. The question really is more not so much when they get there, but what do they do when they get to Baghdad? And by April then I saw the first U.S. troops in my neighborhood and I was feeling like it's something new. What's the system here? Are they here, as they say, like friends with the people?

Or are they just like what the government used to say, that they are here to kill all the people? I remember searching troops. They came to inspect the houses. And it was the first time for me personally practicing my English. With the troops? With the troops for me personally practicing my English. With the troops? With the troops, with someone who speaks English. The Americans at the time, I remember they talked openly about the fact they expected to be met as liberators by the Iraqi people. But can you tell me a little bit more about what the people around you were saying?

Was there a sense that the Western militaries were heroes coming to save Iraq, as they said, or were they looked at as a kind of colonizing force? Well, there was no united opinion on this matter, because that was depending on who side you are. For people who suffer from Saddam, which are the majority of the Iraqi people. At the beginning, yes, they were looking at the U.S. forces as liberators because they have lived oppressed under Saddam regime. But that didn't last for long. That changed only a few months later when the violence started across the country, and then people realized that, security-wise,

they were better off back in sub-dime time than the era of democracy. Because for maybe years, we had daily attacks and daily car bombs and daily dead bodies. To all the men and women of the United States Armed Forces now in the Middle East, daily dead bodies. To all the men and women of the United States Armed Forces now in the Middle East, the peace of a troubled world and the hopes of an oppressed people now depend on you. That trust is well placed. We have not seen any initiatives which would help the local people. Their situation is terrible.

There is no work, everything is stopped. People are ashamed that they are sitting at home without being able to support their families. If the people lose all hope and nothing is done for us, we will choose other ways. Do you remember a certain point where you no longer recognized your country? It was when the beginning of the sectarian war, the start of 2006. My city, Baghdad, it became divided. It started as an insurgency of hardline Sunnis attacking Americans. But by 2006, it had deteriorated into a civil war in all but name.

Sunni and Shia factions killing each other, and both of them fighting the Americans. For years, I was not able to visit my friends who were living in different neighborhoods, which is only like 15 minutes driving. But that neighborhood right now is being controlled by Al-Ta'ida or any other Sunni militia. And then as well as the Shia neighborhoods are being controlled by the Shia militias. And there was war between them.

At its peak, the daily carnage in Baghdad claimed the lives of 200 civilians a day, 34,000 in the past year, the equivalent of a 9-11 attack on the city every month. And many of the bodies show signs of the work of death squads. At that time, like, At that time, the city of Baghdad was one city to me. But at that time, it became multiple cities. It was divided. We didn't recognize it anymore.

And talk to me a little bit more about what your city was like before the war. Well, it's not a normal city. We were, we were living under sanctions, so economically it was really bad. But we were talking, the main thing, the basic thing that we needed and we wanted, rather than anything else, was security. Baghdad city was pretty secure. And there was law and order. But then, after 2003, it was a state of chaos, multiple authorities, and no security at all. I want to turn to the arguments the Americans were making to go to war.

In the first place, of course, there was the threat of weapons of mass destruction, a story that turned out to be a lie. turned out to be a lie. But once that had come clear, do you remember at all how people in Iraq felt about the WMDs falsely being used by the highest levels of the U.S. government to justify the invasion? Actually, for Iraqis, even though we are far away from politics or military, but living here, we knew that there are no WMD in this country. Because of the economic situation that's happening, and even the Iraqi army didn't have even a decent equipment, so we knew it's impossible to do all these sanctions that Iraq would have a WMD. But for many Iraqis, they didn't feel upset about that, taking this justification at the beginning, because only what they care about is getting rid of Saddam.

Were you surprised that he was deposed as quickly as he was? Because of course, you talked about the previous war, the Iran-Iraq war. There have been attempts to depose him previously that didn't work. Well, actually, yeah, we thought it would take much, much longer than it took. It was really quick. And that was because since the 90s, Iraqi army was collapsed because of the sanctions. And at the beginning, we thought it would take longer. But even before the end of the war, I've seen with my own eyes multiple times lots of Iraqi soldiers just taking off their military uniform and wearing civilians and run away from the battle.

They don't have the will to fight. And I remember my dad saying that it means that this war is going to be ending quickly. And that was what happened. But we also realized that, especially after immediately when coalition administrations decided to abolish the Iraqi army, and that meant putting thousands of trained military people in the streets without any job, we realized that this will have a backlash. Right. And it will generate violence. And that's what's happening shortly. A lot of people have recognized the complicity of the U.S.

mainstream media and creating the conditions for this war, right? Like I'm thinking of maybe the New York Times specifically, although certainly many other publications, you know, basically giving legitimacy to the WMD lie. And two decades on, do you think that the media has really atoned for their role in this? I do. I do. Now, especially now I do work in the media and I know how important it is to be very, very accurate. And so sometimes I was thinking those independent media outlets, Sometimes I was thinking those independent media outlets, they should have done it was really hard to report the accuracy

because of the restrictions that they will be putting in front of any media outlets to report in the country. But I'll spare you my opinion, whether there was media encouragement to support that lie or not, this would have happened anyway, because there was a will to overthrow Saddam Hussein for calculations that turned out to be wrong. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search, Money for Couples. I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples.

A lot has happened in the last two decades. Abu Ghraib, Fallujah, the hanging of Saddam Hussein, somewhere between 200,000 to more than a million people dead. So-called shockadon, George Bush's famous speech in front of the Mission Accomplished banner, and the concession that there were no weapons of mass destruction. But for you, what is the prevailing memory you have when you think about the last 20 years in Iraq? Well, as you mentioned, I was 12 in 2003. So a few months after we started to resume going back to school again, and I was living in a

neighborhood that was like, my school was away from my house, like 45 minutes driving or 40 minutes driving. And from the age of 12 until the age of 18 or even above, whenever I was going to school, it was really normal to see a dead body thrown on the street each morning due to the violence that's happening. And even the smell of dead bodies when we passed through in a place that has lots of them, it became normal, and then we just drive like nothing is happening.

Then, since 2003, actually, until now, we are waiting for the fresh start. In 2003, the U.S. forces promised Iraqis that they will have a fresh start as soon as getting rid of the regime of Saddam Hussein. And now, 20 years after, all that we saw was some setbacks, starting from the violence, then Abu Ghraib, then Fallujah, then the rise of Islamic state in the country in 2014, for three years, and the rise of the corruption, which is still spreading in the country until now. Mustafa, do you mind if I ask you, you know, as a teenager

having to go to school and seeing your streets littered with dead bodies, what kind of effect has living with that trauma had on you and the people around you? Well, I lived my whole life here. So I adapted with the situation here. And I didn't realize that this thing has affected me only when I left this country. My first time leaving this country for a holiday into a Western part of the world was 2016. I had a quick trip to the United States for a month.

So walking in the streets of DC and New York on the age of 24, it made me realize that I do have something wrong with me actually, or like some professions call it PTSD. Because for example, like walking beside the White House and seeing people can just walk like walk normally and park their cars, for me, that wasn't normal. A place like this is a target for different kinds of terrorist attacks. Being in Baghdad, we think that there should be a major, major security measures around this place. But being able as a civilian to walk right next to it

was like almost a culture shock to me. Also, I remember being on the beach and someone was filming with a drone. When I heard the sounds of a drone, I immediately took a defensive position because hearing the sound of a drone in my country means that it's going to be a suicide drone attack. the sound of drone my country means that it's going to be a suicide drone attack. Those little details made me realize that like me and millions of Iraqis who lived their whole lives here, we in the last 20 years we didn't live a normal life like any other human being should live. Since we're talking about impacts here, much of your excellent recording has explored the impact the war has had

on the next generation of children and young people. What comes to mind for me is the kids in Fallujah who to this day are born with defects and higher rates of cancer that reports suggest are tied to the use of chemical weapons by U.S. forces in the city. I know that you've also done quite a bit of reporting on burn pits at U.S. military bases. And can you tell me about these sites

and the aftermath that they have left behind as well? The legacy of the United States in this country, besides the spread of the corruption, are the impacts on the health and the environment situation in the country. The city of Fallujah, which is a very small city, it was a stronghold of loss of extremism of Al-Qaeda back then. So it witnessed a really fierce war.

In 2004, U.S. forces launched two major offensives to clear insurgents from Fallujah. Large parts of the city were reduced to rubble. Hundreds of tons of munitions were used. There is a concern for the people of Anbar and the people of Fallujah that they were exposed to weapons effects, says Iraq's deputy minister of health. And the use of chemical weapons has generated lots of birth defects around Fallujah and other areas until this moment. We visited Fallujah a few months ago and we have met with lots of birth defects around Fallujah and other areas until this moment. We visited Fallujah a few months ago, and we have met with lots of specialized doctors who are treating these cases. They are saying until now, even though it's been a long time,

but until now, they are witnessing lots of birth defects. And these actions until now has not been under accountability or consequences or compensation of what they've done. People are still suffering daily. get rid of their waste, which are mostly chemical waste, has caused high rates of cancer, especially lung cancer, in an area that is 100% rural area. It has a river and it's only farms. Throughout most of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the military used so-called burn pits to dispose of virtually all waste, from batteries, paint, solvents and tires, electronic equipment and shipping materials such as plastic wrap. Even whole vehicles were burned.

Before 2003, according to doctors, they almost had none, any cancer cases, zero percent%. But after 03, because of the exposure of that poison air, now, according to those doctors, at least one from each six people on those areas are developing cancer symptoms. And also, despite all of that, there is not even an official recognition by the U.S. administration for their mistakes and for causing all these environment effects in the country and these cancer cases. Right. And of course, we know these burn pits affected U.S. soldiers, too. It's such a heartbreaking story. There are a number of names commonly associated with the Iraq War. Former U.S. President George Bush, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell. And at least in theory, there are judicial bodies that were created to pursue justice in scenarios like Iraq that the International Criminal Court comes to mind. What do you make of the fact all these years later, no one has ever been held officially

responsible for what happened in your country? And do you ever expect that to change? Actually, no, I don't think this will ever change. None of these people ever hold accountability. And then comparing that with the current situation between Russia and Ukraine, for me and for any other Iraqis, now what's happening in Russia and Ukraine is exactly what happened in Iraq in 2003. And seeing these convictions against Russia, it makes me wondering, why are these double standards? It only made me realize or thinking,

maybe we are not at the same level of human like other people. And for the rest of the world, Iraqi lives doesn't matter. America still has a presence in Iraq. There are 2,500 troops still on the ground, even though the official campaign ended in 2010. What do you make of their presence today? Well, their presence today is different, much different than the presence before because now they are present under the request of the Iraqi government for

training and assisting the Iraqi forces with their military actions against the terrorist groups. So actually having them present in Iraq right now actually is not an issue at all,

because we don't see them in the streets at all. They are just based on their bases. And me personally, despite all their mistakes in the past, but having them existed in the country right now is necessary, because we don't trust the ability of the Iraqi forces to secure this country. Mustafa, throughout this interview, you've talked about the status of your country right now. of your country right now, I wanted to ask you about the protests that started in 2019

against corruption and for democracy. After deposing Saddam Hussein, bringing democracy to the country was a major rationale for the continued war. But during those demonstrations, hundreds of people were killed as what became known as the October protest movement ramped up. And what do you think that movement and the violent reaction to it tells you about the status of democracy in your country? That movement was the largest grassroots movement in Iraq's modern history.

Most of the people who participated and led that movement are the new generation, the generation who were children in 2003 or even maybe were born in 2003 or after 2003. Anti-government demonstrators took to the streets of Baghdad in their thousands. Anti-government demonstrators took to the streets of Baghdad in their thousands. The violence marked exactly one year of the current government, another year filled with economic hardship for Iraqis, spiralling unemployment and poor provision of basic services. They grew up learning that they should express their mind.

The October revolution actually, for me personally and like for many Iraqis gave us hope. A hope that we might have another chance. Like we lost our chance in 2003 to start over. Maybe this revolution will give us another chance. The whole people were united trying to get rid of the current corrupted system. And the slogan of the revolution was, we want a homeland. But that movement has been faced with brutal and violence reaction that has killed around more than 800 people. For me personally, I mean, I try to stay optimist and I always try not to look back and looking forward to the future. But losing 800 innocent people and also still no accountability ever has been done for the murderers of those people. For me personally, now it made me feel desperate that

this country is not remain in a chaos. Mustafa, I want to thank you very much for this. Thank you very much. All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.