Front Burner - Is Germany's firewall against the far right crumbling?

Episode Date: September 2, 2026

After a vote this weekend, the far right could take power in a part of Germany for the first time since WWII. Alternative for Germany, or AfD, is far ahead in the polls in a state election in Saxony-Anhalt. They're promising massive changes to immigration, education, and what they call "patriotic cultural policy." Their rise is testing the country's firewall strategy, which was designed to stop parties seen as extremist from gaining power. CBC's Jessica Singer speaks with guest host Jason Markusoff about her reporting from the region in the run-up to the election.For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts 

Uncover is your source for the best in award-winning true crime. I'm Sam Mullins, and from unraveling the mysterious new AI technology, putting so-called criminals behind bars in my series The Expert Witness, to the story of a mysterious con man and a diaper bag stuffed with gold bars in Sea of Lies. Find over 30 groundbreaking investigations into cults, conspiracies, and scams. Search for Uncover wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hi, I'm Jason Marcosoff in for Jamie.

After a vote this weekend, the far right could take power in the region of Germany for the first time since World War II. Alternative for Germany, known as AFD, is far ahead in the polls in the state election in Saxony-Anholt. They're promising massive changes to immigration, education, and what they call patriotic cultural policy. Their rise is testing the country's firewall strategy. designed to stop parties seen as extremist from gaining power. CBC's Jessica Singer has been reporting from the region in the run-up to the election. She's with me today to talk about how AFD has become so popular in a country that's worked so hard to reckon with its dark past.

Hi, Jessica, thanks so much for joining us. Hi, thank you for having me. So the AFD is the most popular party in Germany right now. This rise has been taking shape over the last few years. Before we get into the state election where you are in Saxony-Enhold, can you remind us, How did the AFD first come into the political scene? Yeah, so the AFD began in 2013, sort of as this anti-Euro, anti-European Union Party,

mainly responding to the financial crisis at the time. And it started shifting its focus to issues surrounding immigration and national identity in 2015, when then-Chancellor Angela Merkel welcomed hundreds of thousands of refugees into Germany. from places such as Syria. They talk about Europe. They want more sovereignty. They talk about money. Germany is always footing the bill, they say.

But most of all, they talk about Islam and immigration. When did you start getting interested in this party? Oh, it was when Mrs. Merkel opened the borders. Yeah. And it's no longer my country. Experts say that the party has gradually, I guess, radicalized its beliefs since then. what used to be more of a fringe party has now become an incredibly popular political movement throughout Germany. And as part of this radicalization, the German federal intelligence agencies classify the party, at least in Saxony-Anhold, as extremist.

It confirmed that. What has earned in that label? The AFD in several states is classified as right-wing extremists, as you mentioned. A lot of this classification has to do with language. that either party politicians or party platforms use that the domestic intelligence agency is found to violate or contradict Germany's constitution or the country's democratic order. So using language that's incompatible with basic human dignity, so Islamophobic, anti-Semitic or racist remarks. And using language, I guess, that describes certain people as culturally alienation. based on their background or their religion. According to the agency, the AFD wants to exclude people from the democratic process based on their ancestry or ethnicity.

And this, it said, is incompatible with the German constitution. The AFD has described the news as a heavy blow to democracy. The experts I've spoken with have also mentioned that this designation also has to do with the AFD using language or the idea that there are two types of Germans. so that there's people with German origins or German roots, and then there's people who have migrated to the country, these like real Germans versus migratory Germans. And when I say migratory Germans,

this includes people who have German citizenship or a German passport. I also feel like it's important to mention that members of the party have come under fire for saying things that they've been accused of downplaying Nazi crime, or using slogans or language that was used in the Nazi era. A prominent example is Bjorn Herka is the leader of the AFD in the eastern state of Turingia. And he called the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin a monument of shame. In 2017, he criticized Berlin's Holocaust Memorial, arguing that Germany should reverse the way it remembered its past.

This stupid policy still weighs us down today. We need to do a 180-degree turn on the politics of remembrance. And he was charged and fined for using a phrase with Nazi origins. He used the slogan, everything for Germany at a campaign rally ahead of the 2021 general election. The same phrase was used by the S.A., the so-called stormtroopers of the Nazi party. He claims to have not known the connection, but he was a, his name. history teacher. And yeah, experts have also told me that there are members of the party, especially in its youth wing, which is called Generation Germany, who have ties or connections

to ethno-nationalists movements or even members who used to be a part of organizations that had ties to neo-Nazi groups. With the horrors of World War II and the Holocaust, of course, you can understand why Germany would be institutionally so repulsed and opposed to this type of rhetoric. And there is this firewall we talk about that Germany has had basically since the Second World War. What can you tell me about it? How do you describe it?

Yeah, so this firewall concept, as you mentioned there, is this post-war strategy that's meant to protect or safeguard Germany, German democracy and German liberal values. And this firewall is, it's an informal, unwritten agreement. And it's amongst the major political parties to not collaborate or form coalitions with parties. They believe are extremist, which includes the AFD. What do they do in practice? How does it work? Yes, it's a bit complicated because it depends on which level of government you're looking at. So at the state level, at the state level, at least. The firewall has kept the AFD out of power in numerous states. I mentioned the eastern

state of Turingia. The AFD got the highest number of votes in that state a couple of years ago, but a coalition kept the party out of government. What we're seeing here in the election in Saxony-on-Halt is that the AFD could get a high enough percentage of the vote where other parties couldn't block them out of power, which is why the eyes are on this state. I spoke with the four major political parties in Saxony-on-Halt. They all told me that they would not form a coalition with the AFD, and that's completely off the table. In terms of, like, I guess, the broader context of the firewall, some people are skeptical about the firewall's endurance. One example is in 2025 last year, Friedrich Mertz, he accepted votes from the AFD to try to push through tougher migration

measures and he was not the chancellor at this point. He is now the current chancellor of Germany, but even accepting votes to push through legislation that he deemed important, prompted protests in Berlin, and especially from what I've heard from experts at the municipal level, many city councils will have to collaborate with the AFD just because they're so popular, especially in places in the east where I am now. Right. And if I, if I understand the polls correctly, it's the AFD is at like 40 some percent in the polls well ahead, almost doubling that of the CDE, which is the second biggest party, the current party governing the state of Saxony-Anhalt. Let's talk about this state. What can you tell

us about it? Can you situate us to this region of the country? Yeah, so I think I've mentioned it a few times that they are in the east. It's important because AFD support is stronger in states that used to be part of East Germany when the country was. divided into. It's said to be one of Germany's smaller states, which has around two million people. It has an old population. From what I remember from the statistics, I believe that's the highest average age in the country, also one of the highest unemployment rates. And there are three, I guess what you would call major cities, two larger cities, including where I am right now in Magdeburg, which is the state's capital, but a lot of the areas in this state are quite rural.

So it's smaller, poorer, rural than most of the country. What issues are top of mind for people there? For a lot of AFD supporters, immigration is top of mind. They talk about the economy as well and how, quote, unquote, too much money is going to resources for newcomers. or to conflicts overseas. A lot of people I spoke with tended to conflate illegal immigration and violence and violent crimes. The reason why I think this might be top of mind for people in Saxony-on-Halt is because a few years ago in December, 24,

there was a violent attack on a Christmas market in Magdeburg. Five people were killed. We know now among them a nine-year-old child. and more than 200 injured when a car came off the road here and plowed through this market and attacked. The suspect was from Saudi Arabia. So a lot of people will really conflate and interchange the idea of immigration and rampant violent crime. Perhaps this is in their recent memory. But to be honest, Jason, I've also spoken with people as young as 14.

and the conversation quickly gets more blatantly racist. But most people, if not all of the supporters I've spoken with, talk about immigration. Even though, if I understand correctly, Saxony-un-Holt doesn't really have as many immigrants as the rest of the country proportionally. Yeah, that's right. Compared to the national average, it's below that for sure. Personally, from CBC podcasts, allows you to get lost in someone else's life. From unearthing my childhood grief after the loss of my brother and my serious story about the kid, to attempt you to explain what vision loss feels like by exploring how it sounds and short-sighted. Each season of personally invites you to explore the human experience and all its complexity,

one story or season at a time. This is what it sounds like to be human. Find personally wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so let's take a look at some of the key characters. Jessica, within the party in Saxony Anhalt. Tell me about Urek Siegmund. He's the top candidate in the region. 35 years old.

He hopes to win for his party something it's never had before, government of a state. We must finally think of ourselves again as a community with a common future as a common people. And we also live this perspective here in this historic election. People stand by us because this is about Germany, but Saxony-Anhalt is taking the first step. the German newspaper Der Spiegel has called him Germany's most dangerous man.

Are you the most dangerous man in Germany? That magazine that you mentioned, it's become like a little bit of a schick in the party where they're kind of using it to their advantage, where supporters will bring the magazine to rallies and get Siegmund to sign the cover. You've come 450 kilometers. Just for this. And why have you brought it? Yeah, just to get an autograph.

You want him to sign him? Yeah, yeah, he wanted. As I mentioned, I've been to a few rallies that Siegmund has been at, and he is quite the celebrity. When he comes up on stage, people will chant his nickname. Parties in Germany will have these family festivals where people can get together and show their support for their party. And I went to one for the AFD in a rural,

town called Queerfert. And there was a constant line of people, at times hundreds of people, waiting for Siegmund to sign a t-shirt with his face plastered on the front of it, or purchasing Siegmund tote bags. And that popularity isn't just in person. Online, he has over 800,000 TikTok followers. And when he speaks to supporters and addresses supporters, he'll often talk about how the country has been in low spirits, now is the time for change. And people do really latch on to that and kind of point to him as this like beacon of hope for the future. I want to drill down though on why they call him the most dangerous man. So I understand he speaks about taking back our country. He said of the recent rally that, quote, I don't want that

one centimeter more of our wonderful fatherland falls victim to crazy politics, unquote. Jessica, what does AFD see as crazy politics? I feel like that's a little challenging to answer because it feels very ideological. So the AFD released its government manifesto or, I guess, party platform. And in this party platform, they reference these broad ideas about climate doctrine, rainbow ideology. They'll also say things such as Islam is not a part of German culture, and we will exhaust all legal means to restrict the influence of Islam and the religion in Saxony-on-Halt. The party's manifesto describes a normal family as being a mother, father and child

and pledges to ban the LGBT rainbow flag in schools. It also promises the immediate detention and mass deportation of foreigners who don't meet their criteria. area to stay. A lot of this language experts have pointed me to the fact that a lot of this language actually comes from a local AFD politician named Hans Thomas Till Schneider. He wrote a third of this very lengthy manifesto, including its sections on culture and education, which I've read through. And Tilshneider was actually the individual who invited me to the family festival in Queerfert that I mentioned earlier because that's his district. You spoke with him there, I understand.

Yeah, I did. So I was able to stop him and talk for a moment. And he spoke to a group of reporters at length about how there's this rainbow agenda that's being used to undermine traditional values. But when I asked him, who's behind this rainbow lobby? Like, I don't understand. He said, I don't know. Like, he couldn't tell me.

But I think it's interesting that, like, he did bring up himself what a lot of people have, I guess, pointed to what might seem like a strange contradiction when the party defines a healthy family as being a father, mother, and children, and that there's this rainbow ideology that's seeping into society. The fact that the AFD's federal party co-leader Alice Vidal is married to a Sri Lankan born woman. I have to clarify that this is our ideal. And of course, not everyone lives according to this ideal. I myself, I'm divorced one time. It was a bad story, but so I don't conform 100% to this idea. And our chairwoman, Alice Weidel, she also doesn't conform to this ideal. But, and I totally agree with her, this is the liberty of your personal question.

Everyone can live as he likes. We are conservative but not fundamentalistic. So he kind of tries to, I guess, say, like, see we have this leader and we don't mind that she might be a lesbian or be in a relationship with a woman. It's more about the rainbow lobby that he couldn't really put a name or a face to. While you're in Saxony-un-Holt, you've spoken to some of their supporters. What draws them to Ulrich Siegmund and Hans Thomas Till Schneider and their party? I went to another AFD rally in the small town of Quedlinburg. Thousands of people showed up.

A lot of young men, which I know experts have told me that young men in particular are drawn to the party, including a 17-year-old I met named Lukash Stemler. And he's not able to vote yet, but the AFD can certainly count. on his support when he is able to vote. Yeah, we find him also cool. The Insta posts he make or Twitter posts, it's very cool. For what he stands, it's like an idol. He's an idol for me.

I also spoke with people who seem super dissatisfied with the established political parties, including a man named Daniel Schpect. And he says he's skeptical about whether any, political party can actually deliver on its promises. Like he's not completely sold. But he told me that Germany has been struggling. Germany is going down, down, down.

And even international spectators see that. Our all is going down. The culture is going down. The economy is going down. And I hope it could not be getting worse. So at least it's a chance to get better. I'm not sure if they do better. I will have a great hope.

And the AFD is pitching something different, so it's worth giving them a shot. So let's get Jessica into some of the AFD's policy positions. One of their key and most controversial ideas is this idea of remigration. What does the AFD mean by that? Remigration is a controversial term. From my understanding, it's used in right-wing circles to mean the mass deportation of people who immigrated to a country. I'll just read out some of the promises that the AFD is making to ramp up deportations

of illegal immigrants and impose immigration bans on countries it deems problematic, creating separate classrooms for refugee children. There's this idea that there are too many immigrants in the country, and politicians such as Siegmund capitalize on this sentiment. We will once again distinguish between migrants based on strict immigration criteria, those who genuinely want to contribute, who bring something with them, who speak the language, who have a job and who make a contribution, and those who come here to exploit our system,

who have committed crimes and much more. The latter will have to return to their home countries. They are not welcome here. And as I mentioned, this idea that legal immigrants are committing too much crime and using up too many government resources. I guess it is complicated because German states do have power over policing and some parts of the justice system. So they could try to perhaps introduce some new ways to achieve some of these goals. But it is confusing and complicated.

And that certainly isn't something that could just start happening overnight if it could even happen at all. And you've spoken to some immigrants I understand in the realm of this election. There must be a lot of concern there. Yeah, so I went to a social event for newcomers here at a public library in Magdeburg, and I met an immigrant named Akinola Sonio Lu. He immigrated to Germany from Nigeria about six years ago and is now working here in the city as an accountant. He says he's experienced a lot of instances of very. racism. Of course, many times. But I don't want to remember it because I make it just disappear.

Like it didn't happen. And several times, I've walked by where someone just drive by and through stuff at me here in Matable. Something that struck me was, he was so positive because he really wants to stay here where he's built a home. I don't want to think about that. I don't, I just let it go because I feel these people do it. Some of them don't know better. They can't put themselves in other people's shoes. And sometimes I just let it go. And he does see that there are a lot of good and supportive people in Germany who are taking a stand

and showing solidarity with the immigrant community. One of the other education reforms AFD is proposing is changes to the school history curriculum, that they want to emphasize what they describe as Germany. Germany's, quote, achievements rather than its wartime crimes. What would that look like in practice? Yeah, the government or I guess the party platform, the AFD writes about how history curriculum should focus more on the 19th century when Germany was founded. And it sort of tells a story about how Audubon Bismarck should be an inspiration.

And the AFD does want to put more of an emphasis on what it calls these more positive aspects of the country's history. The party leaders will insist that they will still teach about the Second World War, but that more of a focus will be put on the positives. It's unclear, like exactly what that would actually look like in practice yet, but all of this goes back to this idea that is like a through line in their party platform, is that the way that Germany has been remembering its past has created this set. sense of self-loathing that's held the country back, and now it's time to create a new sense of pride. They say about how they want to educate students to love their homeland and that the German

flag should be flown every day at school. Very patriotic agenda. And another part of this new patriotic cultural policy seems to be targeting a museum in Saxony-un-Holt that you visited. Okay, tell me about that. Yeah, so the museum that you're referring to is the Bauhaus. Oh, yes. And it began, I believe, 1919 as an architecture school, a design and art and architecture school. Its style became quite famous and well known throughout the world. And the AFD is targeting the Bauhaus movement saying that its modern design and its modern philosophy isn't rooted in German tradition or not. nationalistic roots. And Till Schneider, who wrote the section on culture, I asked him about it, and he told me that the Bauhaus breaks with tradition.

And the reason that these criticisms are drawing a lot of attention is because experts point to the fact that it echoes language and sentiments used by the Nazis. So in the early 1930s, the Nazis requested the destruction of the Bauhaus called the movement to generate. and un-German, and it ended up being forced to close in 1933 under Nazi pressure. So I went to the Bauhaus in Desau. It was actually celebrating its 100 years. There were a lot of tourists milling about. It's a huge concrete building with a lot of windows, and we sat in the office of Barbara Steiner, who's the CEO and director, as I mentioned. And she told me she's been giving multiple interviews a day about this topic because of this upcoming election, but still it surprises are in a way that the AFD,

well, at least some members of the AFD are using language to target the Bauhaus in 2026. The FD uses a vocabulary used 100 years ago and same arguments. Again, modernism destroys tradition, roots. a sense of belonging. It was wrong 100 years ago, and it is still wrong. So we were talking earlier about how the AFD has more than 40% in Saxonyan Holt. That's still, of course, not a majority. A lot of votes, a lot of the public is opposed them.

A lot of the public is probably anxious about them hoping this firewall keeps up. You spoke with somebody from a queer initiative in the Saxony-Holt city of Desau. What did they say? There's a huge civil society movement throughout the state of people coming together, protesting the AFD and creating spaces for minorities to gather. And one of these spaces is a new, I guess, initiative for queer people in DESO, as you mentioned. And I met a lesbian couple named Ongy Wolf and Miriam Zeman. They told me about how they were afraid to be themselves in public. They feel nervous sometimes holding hands.

They're always checking in on each other to see if they're feeling safe. They're also considering maybe having kids in the future. But it's challenging to think about because of their fears towards rising political extremism. Also, we have like a little backup plan or a promise to each other that if one of us says, I don't feel safe here, then we leave. What is happening when there is a child involved, Can I say with my heart, I can stay here and I can protect this child? Is this the priority or is the priority to fight for this place because it's my home?

So with this party potentially breaking the firewall, becoming in power in Saxony Ant Hold, what does having that foothold potentially mean for the AFD regarding their hopes of getting into power nationally, which is, of course, their broader goal? Yeah, so if they win and holds state power for the first time, some experts worry that this won't just give them leverage the local level, that it will also give them leverage nationally. They'll sit in the Bundest, which is the second federal legislative chamber in Germany, which represents the country's 16 states. And the states work together with the government in Germany. There's cooperative federalism. are very tied together. And experts say it could try to undermine legislation in this branch.

Try is the key word because they won't have any sort of majority influence or anything when it comes to voting, but they could try to introduce or undermine certain legislation. But I think something important to mention is that people are afraid of the party gaining access to sensitive information. The New York Times wrote a piece recently about how government leaders in Germany are looking for ways to try to prevent certain sensitive intelligence information that's relevant to the state from being shared with state-level domestic intelligence. And I guess part of this fear is because of the AFD's ties to Russia. numerous experts have told me that the party has close ties with the country, and you can see that in their party platform where they list numerous ways to normalize relations with Russia, ending energy sanctions against Russia. But overall, Germany has a robust constitution that could prevent the AFD from bringing in some of the changes that we've talked about that it wants.

there's still a firewall against the party federally, and making these sweeping changes would take a lot of time. But ultimately, the goal is for the AFD to rule nationally. And experts say that that would mean enacting policies, again, that go against Germany's constitution or could change the rules of German democracy. and winning a state election and having this symbolic firewall crumble is a significant step in normalizing a party that's being kept out of power for so long as a legitimate political force. Jessica, thanks so much for bringing us as I can understand why this is something the world should be watching. Thank you for having me. Before we go, a note that Jessica's work has been made possible by financial support from the Gordon-Sinclair roving reporter-Bursary. That's all for today.

I'm Jason Marcosoff. Thank you for listening to Frontburner. For more CBC podcasts, go to cBC.ca.ca slash podcasts.