Front Burner - Is Trump’s MAGA movement in trouble? (FB Exclusive)

Episode Date: December 13, 2025

‘Make America Great Again' has been Donald Trump’s brand for a decade, riding the movement’s anti-elitist wave into the presidency and remaking the Republican Party. But cracks are now showing in the coalition, raising questions about Trump’s commitment to MAGA goals. One of his staunchest allies has become his loudest critic: Georgia congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, who recently announced she would resign her seat next year. CBC’s Washington correspondents — Katie Simpson, Paul Hunter and Willy Lowry — discuss if Greene’s defection is a sign of growing discontent from Trump’s base.

I'm a bit of a spontaneous traveler, and I don't always know where I'm going to be or how long I'm going to be there. And that's where Aerolo comes in. An e-sim from Aerolo allows me to get internet coverage, whether I need it for a specific country, an entire region, or globally. It's easy to set up and I can top up as I go without having to swap out SIM cards. It's the perfect way for me to stay connected. Just download the Aeroa app, pick your destination E-Sim, including plan length, and data amount, install, and you're connected the moment you land. No surprise roaming fees, no airport kiosks, or sketchy public Wi-Fi. Instead, just pay for the data you need.

Stream your playlist, scroll, text, navigate, and video call home, all without watching your phone bill explode. Plus, Aero Lo works in over 200 destinations and is trusted by over 20 million travelers. So, if you have an international trip, download the AeroA app or visit Aero.com. That's A-I-R-A-L-O-com, and use the code Roamsmart for 15% off your first ESIM. Terms apply. This is a CBC podcast. Hey, everybody, it's Jamie. So over the last few weeks, we brought to you a couple of bonus

episodes with CBC Washington correspondents about the last year in U.S. politics, from trade wars, tariffs, and a threat of turning Canada into the 51st state. And you said that you wanted more of that. So in January, CBC News is launching a new weekly podcast focused on the political landscape south of the border and what it all means for Canada. It's featuring CBC's Washington correspondents, Katie Simpson, Paul Hunter, and other reporters in the Bureau, is a conversation about American politics from a Canadian context. The feed will be live in 26, and in the meantime, here's their conversation this week on the future of the Make America Great Again movement. Are you MAGA?

I am America first. And that's not the same as MAGA. MAGA is President Trump's phrase. That's his political policies. I call myself America first. But you're not saying you're Maga. I'm America first. Yeah.

Georgia Republican Marjorie Taylor Green, affirming her break from MAGA and essentially the president in an interview with Leslie Stahl on 60 Minutes. It has sparked a much larger and broader conversation here in Washington about the state of MAGA. Amanda, hear her drawing that

line. You know, I learned a long time ago in the age of Trump never to over interpret anything that is said by any politician, but holy cow, that was a stunner. Yeah, her evolution over the last six months, call it hard to comprehend. She was the picture of this movement and then all the sudden she's out. Yeah. And while it might just be one person, it could also be far more representative of a broader split within the MAGA movement. It really does prompt questions about the strength of MAGA, its future, and that's exactly what we're going to chat about today. I'm Katie Simpson. I'm a senior correspondent here in Washington. I'm Paul Hunter. I'm also senior correspondent here for the CBC in Washington. I'm Willie Lowry. I'm still not a senior correspondent.

One day, Willie. But I am a correspondent and reporter. You'll be seen you before too long. All right. Let's go. For Canadians who might not know the significance of Marjorie, Taylor Green, or her defection, she is a prominent Republican congresswoman from Georgia who really was a recognizable face within the MAGA movement. She'd been very close with Trump, an outspoken ally. I remember when Donald Trump was arraigned in New York City at one of his criminal trials, she showed up with a bullhorn and was shouting things about. Joe Biden, lots of expletives, saying this is the weaponization of justice there to defend

him. And so all of it sort of makes this break from Trump even more significant. Yeah. And I would just say another thing for those who, you know, who've seen her or heard the name, she came up out of nowhere in a weird kind of way, right? And I remember going to Georgia, where she's from covering the Herschel Walker campaign, former football star, right? And I was at this rally that Herschel Walker was going to have. And it was full of football fans, right, who and then in walked Marjorie Taylor Green and it was like the star had arrived and people flocked to her

and that was when I had this realization yeah she's got something and you know she's branded on MAGA and she's America first and she's all these things that Trump has been about but she has power star power and lots of it and MAGA absolutely I was actually at

the arraignment in New York City and it's not just that she attracts a crowd She's pugnacious. She, and this is, I think, what makes her evolution over the last really month so dramatic. She never backed down from a fight. And now all of the sudden she's basically telling America that she is somewhat apologetic for the rhetoric that we've seen over the last several years and that she thinks everything needs to be toned down. And she puts a lot of the blame on the person that she was not just a supporter of. She was directly tied to it.

tied to it and perhaps the principal evangelical kind of preacher of. Yeah, she's cementing her break from the MAGA movement and from Trump. And it might seem sudden it sort of come together in the last month or so. But when did we start to really see that, okay, there might be some divisions here? I think, I mean, if you look at her congressional record, she's voted 98% of the time with President Trump. But I think it dates back to late spring, early summer. there was talk of her potentially entering the Georgia Senate race, and she kind of took to social media, as so many people in American politics do these days, and wrote a long diatribe, basically against the Republican Party. She didn't single out or mention President Trump yet, but I think if you look back, it kind of marks the beginning of this fissure between her and the party and her and perhaps.

the MAGA movement. Fast forward to, of course, the EFSIFiles. I mean, I think that was the catalyst. Or is the Fisher a recognition from her perspective that Donald Trump and MAGA are two different things, right? I don't want to read too much into what Green is doing here, but that maybe Trump isn't all he was made out to be, right? Maybe what she's saying is that he's the wizard of Oz, right? And the curtain has gone up. And he is not that guy. He is not what MAGA, which came out of the Tea Party if we want to go back in history which is less government

more money in our pockets all that kind of stuff right that Trump in the end isn't him I really like the Wizard of Oz reference as someone who's been forced to sit through that movie many times in the last few months

and it's really but I think it's spot on but I think this is we're at this moment where is Maga Trump or is Trump MAGA and I think that's what we're kind of going to find out And I think that gets us to, you know, this bigger picture question about MAGA and the Epstein files and how that has sort of created a larger fracture within this movement. You know, in the 60 Minutes piece, Paul, we heard her talk about the Epstein files and how that was a straw that broke the camel's back. How has this divided the MAGA movement?

When I think about the Epstein effect on Trump, I go back. to Trump 1.0 and a rally with Trump in Houston. And I was chatting with three nice ladies. And I was asking about Stormy Daniels and the Hollywood Access taped. And like, so why do you still support him? And their answer was that's just, they just shoved it off. It's just locker room talking. Trump seemed, it was another example of how at that time, Trump seemed like omnipotent in the eyes of his so-called base. So when I think about Epstein now, I think is that, it's as if MAGA sees Trump for someone who made promises about Epstein.

And now he's not. And so the old, well, if you've got nothing to hide, what, you know, why are you changing your line on this? And I think, back to the Wizard of Oz, is there a realization that he isn't what he said he was. Tack on his foreign policy and America first is out the window and now it's world first.

Tack on affordability. He says prices have come down. Well, they haven't really. It seems to be the sense of a lot of people and there's a lot of data to support that they haven't come down, that things are more expensive. Again, it's hard to read too much

into Marjorie Taylor Green, but there is others, as you note, Katie. This slow motion realization that maybe we've got to look somewhere else that he doesn't represent us. I think that's definitely the case for sure, but there's also the fact that this is a movement

that for lack of a better term has a propensity towards conspiracy theories, right? And the Epstein files and Jeffrey Epstein occupied a huge space within that movement and they were obsessed for whatever reason with these documents. And Trump, on countless occasions, fomented that obsession and, you know, essentially said he would call for their release.

Back to your point. And now he's in office and he didn't just not call for their release. You know, he actively tried to prevent them from essentially being released, you know, calling Marjorie Taylor Green into the White House and basically trying to pressure against voting for it. Standing up for American women who were raped at 14 years old, trafficked and used by rich, powerful men, should not result in me being called a traitor and threatened by the president of the United States whom I fought for. Yeah, you know, Donald Trump surrounded himself with people like Cash Patel, Dan Boingino, who now have prominent roles at the FBI, and they were some of the loudest cheerleaders demanding the release of documents.

And so by putting these people in those places of authority, those positions of authority, it spoke to those conspiracy-minded folks saying, hey, these guys, they're your guys. And we're going to move forward on this. And so when Trump actually comes back into office and Pam Bondi, the attorney general, goes on Fox News and says, I've got the Epstein list on my desk and we're going to get it out there. I'm just going over it. And all these promises are made. And then all of a sudden, it doesn't happen. There's no list to release. And not only that, the FBI releases a mess. saying, okay, well, there's nothing to see here. We're not going to release any more information. And there are so many conspiracy theories related to Jeffrey Epstein, but there is something to remember here that there were very real crimes. There are very real victims. But because this has been something where the truth and accurate information has been hidden from the public so long, you know, conspiracies fill the void. And so many people within that MAGA movement or a significant chunk of them wanted to see that be made public. And now we're

in this situation where that part of the base is not satisfied and they're vocal. Except up until now, if Trump were to say there's nothing there, they'd say, okay, right? That's the difference. If he calls it a hoax, it's a hoax. It's a Democrat hoax. It's a Democrat hoax. But the difference now is that people aren't willing to believe him. And to me, that's remarkable because that has been his calling card throughout his whole rise to

the White House twice, is that people believe what. whatever he says, you'll make America great again, whatever it is, but not now. Okay, Paul, Willie, there's a lot more to talk about. But first, I want to do a shout out to anyone who is listening today on Spotify. If you're so inclined, leave us a note in the comments section and tell us what you'd like to hear us talk about in 2026. I'm a bit of a spontaneous traveler and I don't always know where I'm going to be or how long I'm going to be there. And that's where Aerole comes in. An e-sim from Aerolo allows me to get internet coverage, whether I need it for a specific country, an entire region, or globally.

It's easy to set up and I can top up as I go without having to swap out SIM cards. It's the perfect way for me to stay connected. Just download the Aeroa app, pick your destination ESIM, including plan length and data amount, install, and you're connected the moment you land. No surprise roaming fees, no airport kiosks, or sketchy public Wi-Fi. Instead, just pay for the data you need. Stream your playlist, scroll, text, navigate, and video call home, all without watching your phone bill explode. Plus, Aero Lo works in over 200 destinations and is trusted by over 20 million travelers. So if you have an international trip, download the AeroA app or visit Aero.com.

That's A-I-R-A-L-O.com and use the code Roamsmart for 15% off your first ESIM. Terms apply. Are your pipes ready for a deep freeze? You can take action to help protect your home from extreme weather. Discover prevention tips that can help you be climate ready at keep it intact.ca. Okay, so promises made on the Epstein file, some in the MAGA world, they do not think Donald Trump has lived up to his promises. They have not released the full documents. Things are in the works now.

But another area that Marjorie Taylor Green also specifically cites that she thinks that Donald Trump is not living. up to his promises to the American people, has to do with foreign policy. Specifically, this promise to not get America entangled into any more foreign wars. Venezuela, anyone? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, well, I think it was really interesting just how much of a focus that Marjorie Taylor Green made on foreign policy, not just in her interview on 60 Minutes,

but in her kind of call it a resignation speech on Instagram a few weeks ago. Americans hard-earned tax dollars always fund foreign wars, foreign aid. aid and foreign interests. And the spending power of the dollar continues to decline. Essentially suggesting that she's America first and that Trump is pursuing a foreign policy that is not necessarily America first, but perhaps Trump first. One of the big schisms is around the war in Gaza, Marjorie Taylor Green, really doing a kind of an about face over the last six months, coming down really hard against Israel, calling it a genocide. And she's not the only person within that MAGA movement. There's a fracturing going on as we speak with half the

movement, kind of more traditionally Republican supporting Israel. And in other half, and it tends to be a younger proportion of the group being surprisingly anti-Israel. But it's not just in the Middle East, you know, Trump is showing to have a bit of a propensity for interventionalism, which is something he kind of campaigned against. What we're seeing right now in Venezuela, essentially we're on the brink, the precipice of armed conflict with that country. This is not something that is wanted by the MAGA base. And I would suggest is probably where you see his administration because it's not entirely MAGA, right? I think Venezuela is the influence of Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who's more traditionally hawkish.

you're seeing this kind of the hawks in the party and the more MAGA kind of budding heads and both are getting their own little victories but neither being fully satisfied. I wonder too if it's fair comment to say that his messaging has been failing because if you think about Ukraine, well, we don't want to spend our money over there. So that's kind of a way of saying America first. When you look at Venezuela, well, drugs are coming up, but you toss in Gaza, you toss in entertaining the Saudis here and other things. And the feeling is that he's paying more attention to the world than he is to America.

And I think that's one of the problems with MAGA. And you're starting to hear not only, I think, anyway, not only the Marjorie Taylor Greens of the world, but, you know, not that she doesn't vote, but I'll say actual voters seem to be whispering the same things that you hear occasionally at rallies and such. You know, questions like why are these operations abroad taking place? why are American tax dollars going in that space when I'm having so much problem at home? It's sort of, that's been a theme of questions that people within the MAGA movement has bonded them together. They question, you know, why are we being the world's policemen?

Why is that our responsibility in our role when I am worried that my kids are not going to be able to live a better life than I'm living. And it also speaks to this next challenge, which is the cost of living and affordability. Donald Trump's campaign, his 2024 campaign, the winning message that really resonated. There were two of them, really, one on immigration, Americans really like that. And they believed him when he went out on the campaign trail and said, I am going to make your life more affordable. And, you know, Paul, that and really, that is really presenting a massive challenge for him. Yeah, I think we're at the classic point in the administration where campaign promises are

meeting the reality. And he can tell people that the economy is strong and that he'd give himself, what was it, an A plus, plus, plus plus, but the people don't feel that way, right? And when you go to the grocery store and your wallet is hurting, it doesn't matter what the president says. And I think Trump and his team, they know that it's a problem. He held a rally in Pennsylvania earlier this week. He stood in front of supporters holding signs that read, you know, lower prices and bigger paychecks. And he talked about crushing inflation and the soaring stock market. Our economy is unbelievable.

There's never been anything. But the Democrats go out. Prices are too high. Yeah, they're too high because they cause them to be too high. But now they're coming down. One of the most important ways we're defeating inflation is by unleashing American energy, including oil, gas, and clean, beautiful call right here. in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

So I would just say a year into this and he's still blaming the Biden administration. You can only blame. I mean, this is true for any politician in any party in any country. You've got a little bit of time when you come in. But at a certain point, and maybe it's a year, maybe it's longer, but I think we're seeing evidence

that for a lot of voters, it's, you own this now, right? And my wallet is not full because the price of eggs or beef or whatever it is. the fact is he can say stuff but the data the inflation is 3% which is what it was by the way when he took office prices haven't gone down that's a whole different kettle of fish beef is up to over six dollars poll thanks for that really just a fun fact not so fun fact but but that that's what matters to voters it's the economy stupid right it's the oldest you know line in politics but he's paying the price for it and that's again don't the reason we're happening this conversation. It's because Donald Trump, the guy who has survived everything and anything from all directions until now, maybe, has somehow managed to deflect all that. And it's coming back to bite him, it would seem. And I think that there is the tone, the way he's talking

about it. It is very Trump. He seems to sort of be mocking the idea of affordability. And when people across the United States, largely, you know, middle and lower income people, are experiencing extreme challenges when it comes to the cost of living. When, you know, Americans, I think, are understanding that tariffs are having a cost, you know, as time has passed, and Americans have seen certain goods, the price of certain goods go up. Coffee. Coffee, bananas, things that you don't make in America. And so I think that this is another one of those things that gets back to the point you're making, Paul, is that, you know, Donald Trump is not lowering prices like he said he would. And the MAGA base has for so long given him grace and believed him even when

things have not presented in the same way. But if I can say something else, and I'm not here to write Donald Trump's obituary, right? He has, he has proven everybody wrong time after time after time. But the thing is, the lesson here, if you ask me, and this is applicable in Canada, is that this stuff matters, right? And, you know, if you come in on a promise, you have to kind of keep it. And the stuff that matters most, the stuff that matters to disaffected Americans,

the people in the Rust Belt, the people that grew into the Tea Party, that grew into MAGA, that say, I'm left out of the process, my life isn't what it was promised to me that I thought I was going to get, and I want to blame those dirty rotten people in Washington or Ottawa or wherever, right?

If you ignore the grievances, he said Paul with air quotes, if you ignore the circumstances that have made so many millions of people in this country angry at the way government has worked for them. And right now, them is MAGA, it's at your peril. And is it, are we at the time when it is coming back to Donald Trump? And will he realize that and will he act on it and change? Who knows? And to bring it back to Canada, I think it would be a huge mistake for Canadians. Obviously, MAGA is an American movement, but the undercurrents, that sense of dissatisfaction that you were speaking of, those are universal.

They are felt in Canada. You look at the Freedom Convoy that we had back in was at 2022. It would be a mistake for Canadians and Canadian politicians to assume this can only happen here. And a factor with Hillary Clinton, going back to that time, was Democrats didn't have an answer. Trump did. And he may or may not have been right or wrong, but Democrats did not have an acceptable answer, right? And that same circumstance and the tens of millions of American voters feel the same way. And they're looking for answers.

Marjorie Taylor Green is saying maybe he ain't the guy. Yeah, I guess the question for me is, does the movement persist without? him or does it, you know, for lack of a better word, die and does something else replace it? Looking forward, I wonder, does the splintering matter? Is the splintering going to have an impact on Donald Trump and the power he holds within the MAGA movement? Or are we going to see prominent people within conservative politics in the United States, maybe perhaps try to make some moves? And I think that the next year is going to be crucial around that. Agreed.

heading into the midterm elections, and I have a feeling we're going to be talking about the midterm elections quite a bit over the next 12 months or so, that if Donald Trump can retain the base, the MAGA base and the splintering is just minimal and going forward and Republicans do okay in the midterm elections, what are we going to see in terms of who is taking the torch next? And do they want the same kind of MAGA conservative politics that Donald Trump is embracing because works. It works. It works, right? Or do we see whoever runs in 2028 runs off of this America first? Does it splinter? Does MAGA splinter and, you know, someone like Marjorie Taylor Green, someone like someone else within that sort of movement,

MAGA movement or the Trump circle, do they say, okay, you know what? Maga had a base of ideas that we really like, but here's how we can focus them more domestically and continues on with the Trump style of politics, but perhaps picks up on some of the lessons from this moment. I'll say one more thing. Here we are having this conversation. He still has three years left in his term, point number one. And point number two, I'll just reiterate, let's not count him out. Never, never, ever count. That's how you get mud on your face, Paul. It doesn't feel good. All right, I think that's a pretty good spot where we should wrap this up. We, of course, are going to keep on reporting about this issue. And many of

others from here in Washington. And we look forward to having more of these conversations in the new year. So stay tuned for our brand new podcast coming in January. Can't wait. Oh, yeah. He's sound like the Kool-Aid man. Oh, yeah. Through the wall. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca.ca slash podcasts.