Front Burner - ISIS detention camps a ‘ticking time bomb’

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

For years, relatives of suspected ISIS fighters — including the families of many foreign fighters — have languished in massive detention camps in northern Syria. These camps, home to tens of thousands of children, have become the sites of a violent, festering humanitarian crisis, with no clear end in sight. Now, that crisis may be about to get much worse. The camps are guarded by a U.S.-backed Kurdish military group, which is now being bombed by Turkey. They say if the Turkish offensive continues, they’ll have no choice but to abandon the camps to go fight. Experts fear this could have disastrous consequences — including a possible resurgence of ISIS. Today, BBC investigative reporter Poonam Taneja, who is on the ground in northern Syria, joins us for a look at the camps and the disastrous situation that could unfold in the region.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. It's a place in limbo, like no other refugee camp on Earth shunned by the international community.

Kurdish forces say this place is a ticking time bomb, an ISIS academy where its brutal ideology is incubating. Al-Hol in northern Syria was once a humanitarian camp designed to provide safe, temporary shelter to civilians fleeing conflict in Iraq and Syria. But since ISIS lost the last of its territory in 2019, Al-Hol has also become a detention facility for tens of thousands of family members of suspected ISIS fighters. Many residents of this camp and others in northern Syria are children. One camp even houses dozens of Canadian kids. These camps were already sites of violent, festering humanitarian crisis. But now that crisis may be about to get a whole lot worse. The camps are guarded by a U.S.-backed Kurdish military group, which in the past week has been bombarded by Turkish airstrikes. And they say that if Turkey's offensive escalates, they'll have no choice but to stop guarding the camps and go fight. It's a situation which many experts fear could have disastrous consequences,

including a possible return of ISIS. Poonam Taneja is in northern Syria right now reporting on this story. She's a BBC investigative reporter, and she's also working on a podcast for the BBC and the CBC about women and children living in these detention camps in Syria. Poonam, thank you so much for coming on to FrontBurner. It's good to have you. Yes, it's wonderful to be able to talk to you, Jamie. Thank you. Before we get into what's been ramping up over the past couple of weeks, I want to spend a bit more time talking about these camps. I know I described them a little bit in the intro there, but you've been to them. And so I'm hoping we can spend more time talking about what they're really like. And first, tell me about the group in charge of them. Right. OK. So the group in charge of them are the Syrian Democratic Forces.

Right, okay, so the group in charge of them are the Syrian Democratic Forces. And essentially, they're a coalition of Kurds, Arabs and Christians, and they played a major role in defeating IS in Syria. Now, they were founded back in 2015. That's nearly four years after an armed rebellion erupted against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. But essentially, they have the backing of the U.S. and the International Coalition, which worked together to defeat IS. And now they're responsible, as you just mentioned, for guarding and managing these camps in northeast Syria. And prisons, in fact.

Prisons which hold Islamic State groups' fighters. And are the prisons in in fact, prisons which hold Islamic State groups fighters. And are the prisons in these camps? Are they part of the camps? So the prisons are separate and they're in separate areas, all scattered around northeast Syria. And they are high security prisons. And they essentially hold the men and some of the older boys who were involved with IS. Okay. And these camps, who is living in the camps? Right. Okay. So if we talk about Al-Hol first. So Al-Hol is the largest of the camps. At its height back in 2019, it housed over 70,000 people. Right now,

I think the population is nearer 50,000, 55,000. And it's split into two parts. There's something called the main camp, and that houses Syrian and Iraqis. Some of them are families. And this is a really interesting part, is that some of the families are people who fled Islamic State group. So they were, their towns were taken over or the, or they knew the IS were creeping into areas where they lived. And so they fled and they sought refuge in this camp. And the other Iraqis and Syrians are people who aligned themselves to IS. Spokesman Kino Gabriel says ISIS is using the camp to create a state within a state. Basically, we just moved al-Baghus, which was the last ISIS stronghold.

Before it was defeated, we just moved it to al-Hol camp. So it's quite an interesting situation there. And then there is another section and that's known within the camp as the annex or the foreign annex. And that is where the women and children of Islamic State groups, foreign fighters, the wives and the children of Islamic State groups, foreign fighters live. There are about 8,000 to 10,000 of them there. And that annex is much, much more tightly controlled. It's separate from the main camp. It has its own market and it has its own facilities.

And it's heavily, heavily guarded. Just out of curiosity, why are they separate? To a certain extent, because we have the victims of IS living in the main camp, I think this part really was to control and monitor who was in that camp. So these are women and children from, at one point, it was up to 50 different countries. So it's also about the fact that it's more of a detention facility as well and a tighter detention facility. It's one where they're trying to decide and discover who's actually living within that camp as well. So I think there was this very, very strong need, probably with some direction from the camp's residents' home countries as well, to be able to monitor them in a separate space really and um i know you just mentioned that that there are people there from up to 50 different countries

and i know that we have just been talking about al-hol but are canadians in either al-hol or any of the other camps yeah so there's another camp called called Al Raj and that's more purpose-built. That was purpose-built specifically for foreign women. And there are believed to be at least 30 Canadian children in that camp and seven mothers, which is quite a significant number. Now that's a much smaller camp, it's about 3,000 people. It's better organized, it's not as chaotic, it's cleaner, it's well guarded. And that's where the Canadian contingent are housed at the moment. Okay. And is it fair for me to say that these citizens, these Canadian citizens and citizens from other countries remain in these camps

because they're not allowed to go back to their home countries? Yes, 100%, Jamie. That's exactly the reason they're there. I know that there are some women who chose not to return, but generally, most of the women that do want to leave. Women in Al Raj who choose to speak to reporters have one overwhelming message. They want to go home. I do not want other people to make the mistakes I did by coming to Syria, bringing my children and getting them killed. I regret, I regret, I regret so much. I still hope we can go to France and have hope for my children.

But many countries don't want to repatriate them. They don't want them back. They say that they're a security threat. We have seen a bit of a shift recently, though, I have to say. So there are certain countries who have changed their position. I think one of the most notable ones is Australia, who decided a few weeks ago to repatriate their women and children. Quite a few European countries, Germany, Sweden, Kosovo, Russia too, have repatriated women and children. There are some outliers. Britain is one of them. And until recently, Canada also. But of course you will know this, that a couple of weeks ago,

a number of Canadian citizens were also repatriated. Now CBC News has learned at least two Canadian women and an unknown number of children are on their way home. One of them, Canadian Kimberly Pullman, a 50-year-old from British Columbia. After Pullman's children grew up, she married an ISIS fighter she met online, then traveled to Syria in 2015. Some people view that as a possible shift moving forward.

I think we'll have to wait and see. I wonder if we could spend just a little bit more time talking about this really big camp, Al-Hol. And so just describe what it's like for me. What's it like there? So Al-Hol is like a sprawling tent city almost. It's absolutely huge. It's guarded by watchtowers, fences, concrete walls. On the perimeter of the camp, there is a two-metre deep by one-metre wide ditch, I suppose you could call it.

In the camp, they call them the sewers. It's heavily, heavily guarded and it's heavily fortified. It is really a detention facility, more than a refugee camp from the looks of it. And I think that is one of the overwhelming feelings or sense that I get, especially recently when I visited Al-Hol, is just how securitized the camp has become. And to give you an example, Jamie, last year when I went, I was traveling around the camp in a car, in a normal car with SDF soldiers. This time around, I saw armored vehicles, the sort of armored vehicles that I've only ever seen when I've been on a military embed in places like Afghanistan. There was a machine gun on top. Now, when I asked the camp officials about

this, they said it was because there was a risk of the camp being attacked by IS. So they had ramped up security. But certainly I've seen the guards actually patrolling those vehicles. There are parts of the camp, such as the foreign annex, which have become lawless. It's dangerous. It's overcrowded. It's filthy. There's open sewage. Some of the women complain that they don't have heaters. And the majority of residents, particularly in the foreign annex, are children. They're children that have lived through unimaginable horrors. Some of them were born under IS, under IS's so-called caliphate. Most are missing at least one parent. And there are still some hardline women there who believe in IS's ideology they are convinced

that the caliphate will rise again they are radicalizing their children they're maintaining the IS belief system and there are attacks against other women and I was told recently by one of the women in the camp that unless you adhere to sort of the IS ideology that's perpetuated by some of the hardliners in the camp, you're really in trouble there. You're at risk. So I think that gives a sense of really the camp itself and the dangers of it. Certainly last year when I was there, there were some children who were making some cutthroat gestures at us. They recognized us as a TV crew. They were throwing stones. And even though they were only about five or six years old, they had pretty good aim. So I remember one of the stones that they threw, it hit the passenger

window and it smashed. Nobody in the car really missed a beat at this point. Certainly the guards were really used to it, but it more or less ended our visit. And I think that's one of the key things that even the guards don't feel comfortable to patrol the foreign section of the camp. account. Mm-hmm. on CBC Gem, brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast,

just search for Money for Couples. Am I right to say that there's also this protocol at Al-Hol for boys living in the camps? So once they hit a certain age, they're basically separated from their families? Yes, that's right. So this usually happens around adolescence. It can be as young as 11 and 12 even. So we've spoken to the Kurdish authorities about this on a number of occasions and part of it is that they say that at this point they're just too difficult to manage in the camp so they're taken away to what the authorities here call or have described

as rehabilitation centers effectively it is a detention center and it's for boys only. So they are separated from their mothers. It's a big issue for many women. And many of these children haven't done anything wrong. They were brought to live under IS by their parents or their families. So effectively, there's a sense that they are being punished for the sins of their parents. And once the boys go into rehabilitation centers, well, the next move for them is, unfortunately, adult prison is a men's prison once they reach 18. So they're on this conveyor belt of detention, effectively. So essentially, they're being taken away from their families because they don't want to see them radicalized, right, or become ISIS extremists, but then they're just shuffled into like a prison system?

and they're places where they can learn and they're being moved away from more radical influences. Effectively, it is a detention center. They can't move around freely. They can't leave certainly. So effectively, they are imprisoned. It's really heartbreaking. Medicine Sans Frontieres put out a report earlier this month criticizing the U.S.-led Global Coalition for outsourcing the management of this really dire situation to the Syrian Democratic Forces, the group that we were talking about earlier, who's in charge of these camps. And they said that the SDF is ill-equipped and poorly guided to manage this crisis that's happening in Nahul particularly. Is that a common criticism that the coalition should be shouldering more responsibility for this camp? Yes, it's a really common criticism, often made by the SDF themselves, actually, because often they will say

that they were victims of IS, they led the fight against IS, and now they've been shouldered with this responsibility of taking care of the remnants of IS. So they are really pushing for countries to repatriate their citizens. They describe Al-Hol as a time bomb. You know, they believe that really there is a threat of radicalization to younger children. They believe that it's too lawless for them to even control or police. I think pretty much they're very successful at controlling the perimeter of the camp. But there are real concerns that IS would attack the camp. The area around Al-Hol is a town called Hol.

And it used to be an IS stronghold. And to this day, there are still pockets of IS sympathisers who remain in those areas. So that's also another worrying factor. So we have this very dire situation, the SDF saying that this camp in particular is a taking time bomb. And then I guess that brings us to recent events that have been ramping up over the past couple of weeks. There's a lot to unravel here. So I'm just going to briefly recap a few things for our listeners.

Earlier this month, on November 13th, there was a bombing in downtown Istanbul that killed six people and injured more than 80 people. And Turkey has claimed that the Kurdish separatist group, the PKK, was behind the attack. And the PKK have denied this. But following that last week, Turkey started launching airstrikes on Kurdish targets in Iraq and Syria, northern Syria. This area that we've been talking about. President Erdogan vowed there would be consequences. Our ongoing operations with planes, artillery and combat drones are only the beginning.

What have the major impacts of those airstrikes been like? Well, the major impact is actually loss of life. At least 30 civilians and 11 security forces have been killed in the attacks since then. In addition, Turkey threatened a fresh ground assault, which has worried many, if not all people living here, something the SDF has also been very, very critical of. So I think there is a real worry. I mean, we were driving by, we went to the site of one of the attacks. It was at a power station and there's still a fire, a blaze that was about, I don't know, 60 meters high. And as we were driving past the highway,

we saw sort of plumes of black smoke here and there where there'd been attacks. And certainly the airstrikes have really angered many people living here. When I arrived a few days ago, the entire town of Derrick, which had been hit by the airstrikes, the entire town had just shut down in respect and mourning for the 11 people who'd been killed in attacks locally. It was just like a ghost town. And then there've been services like power stations, production facilities, also that have been targeted, oil and gas facilities. An SDF military compound was hit as well, which has been criticized heavily. So the impact has been fairly extensive, particularly in terms of loss of civilian life.

And how has it affected the already very tenuous, I guess, management of these camps and surrounding prisons? Well, the SDF have made it really clear that once the attacks take place, they are having to divert the security personnel they have guarding the prisons and the camps and counter-terrorism operations as well against IS cells in the area. That all of those resources have to be then diverted to protect other facilities. And they've actually openly said that they've seized counter-terror operations against IS following the attacks. In addition, the SDF say that a number of Turkish airstrikes targeted Al-Hol and they say the attack killed seven security officials responsible for guarding the camp

and injured eight others. Now, my team and I, we asked to see the scene of the attack, and unfortunately, we couldn't gain access. But that's what the SDF is saying officially. So it's really, it's making what is a really precarious situation on the ground, a lot more delicate and a lot more volatile. But effectively, and we've spoken to the head of the SDF on this, he says quite clearly that if the attacks continue, and certainly if there's a ground assault, then they will not have the ability to guard the camps and the prisons. Just to clarify, why would Turkey be targeting the security services around El Hol, the SDF, when they say that the group responsible for the bombing in Istanbul is a different group,

the PKK? Well, so Turkey effectively accused the SDF of having links to the PKK, something which the SDF strongly deny. If this did happen, if the SDF forces who are guarding the camps did abandon them, what could happen? And I suppose the prisons as well, right? Yeah, so we've got a glimpse of what could happen in the past. So back in 2019, towards the end of 2019, when there was a Turkish ground assault, there was a camp called Anisa, which was guarding IS families. And effectively, when the ground assault took place, the SDF abandoned the camp and there were escapes. the SDF abandoned the camp and there were escapes. So if that did happen, then there'd be a really big problem. Effectively, you have about 50,000 people in a camp, many of them who have strong links to IS, some of whom travel to join the caliphate. And there are steeper cells,

the caliphate. And there are steeper cells, there are IS steeper cells who would no doubt be happy to support some escapees. And there is a real danger that there could be a resurgence of IS in the region, certainly. Poonam, it strikes me talking to you today that whether the SDF sort of abandons their posts around these camps and prisons tomorrow or not, the situation is in so many ways when the governments around the world have really tried to keep at arm's length in a lot of ways to ignore, right? To not really deal with. But now we're seeing the consequences of not dealing with it, of allowing this problem of not repatriating citizens and not, you know, paying enough attention to these camps to fester and grow. Yeah, I think that really the fact that the SDF openly say that they're really ill-equipped to continue guarding these camps, I think really should strike a strong message. And I think there have been many, many countries who've been reluctant to

repatriate. I think that is changing, certainly with some of the Western countries, but there are some countries that, you know, it's a firm no for them taking their citizens back. So I think certainly it's, up until now, it's been fairly convenient to sort of outsource the problem as it as it were, to the Kurds in northeast Syria. But I'm not sure how long that can continue. And I think the events in the last couple of weeks have probably shown that it's not really sustainable at all. In the long run. Yeah. Putum, thank you so much for this. This was really an eye-opening conversation. Thank you so much.

No, thank you. It's been lovely chatting. All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow.