Front Burner - Joe Rogan’s appeal and $100-million deal

Episode Date: May 26, 2020

Love him or hate him, Joe Rogan is one of the biggest names in podcasting. Now, he’s inked a $100-million deal with Spotify that could turn the podcasting industry on its head. Nick Quah, writer of the newsletter Hot Pod, and Devin Gordon, a journalist who’s written about Rogan for The Atlantic, join us to speak about Rogan’s appeal, and why this Spotify deal could be such a game-changer.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi there, I'm Pia Chattopadhyay. I had a dream once that there was a million Teslas. Instead of like one Tesla, there was a million Teslas.

Okay. Not Chesley the car, but Nikola. Oh, yeah, sure. And that in his day, there was a million people like him who were radically innovative. It was a weird dream, man. It was so strange. If you listen to podcasts, you know Joe Rogan, even if you don't listen to him, and a lot of people do. Rogan says his podcast, The Joe Rogan Experience,

gets about 190 million downloads each month, which is way beyond huge in podcasting. And now he's also getting paid. Last week, the streaming platform Spotify announced a deal to pay Rogan more than $100 million US. And with that sum, Spotify lured in the white whale of this medium. A former actor, comedian, host of Fear Factor, and MMA commentator. Now best known for his often three-hour conversations. Some of them that court controversy. There's psychic vampires stealing the energy from the kids.

Megyn Kelly's so pretty, she can say whatever the f*** she wants. Today, understanding Rogan's appeal and why this deal could turn the podcasting industry on its head. This is FrontBurner. I'm joined by two guests today. Nick Kwa is the writer of Hot Pod. That's the leading trade newsletter about the podcasting industry. And Devin Gordon is a journalist and author who wrote about his experience trying to live like Joe Rogan for The Atlantic. Hi, guys. How's it going?

Hey, thanks. So, Nick, for those who aren't at all familiar with it, just describe the Joe Rogan experience for me. So the Joe Rogan experience is basically a very long form sort of shock jock style talk show. If you can sort of think about the Howard Stern show where it's one personality interviewing people who come in every week for a very long period of time, that's basically the show. And so when you say shock jock, it's not super politically correct, right? I mean, it's shock jock is kind of an overselling here. It's he would argue that it's sort of whatever he thinks.

And so, you know, the convention there would be, doesn't quite go for political correctness, doesn't quite go for, you know, what everybody might sort of be sensitive about. Just sort of like says what he thinks kind of deal. Like, have I said stupid shit? A hundred percent. I've done 1400 plus podcasts.

A lot of them high. Like a giant percentage of them. I said a bunch of stupid shit. I couldn't even believe why I was saying it. I like to say inappropriate words. I do it all the time. Why? Because it's fun. Devin, you wrote a big article about Joe Rogan, and you said you could kind of divide his guests into three camps.

So explain those camps to me. Well, so I divided it sort of roughly as comedians, fighters, and thinkers. And I think I put thinkers in air quotes because his notion of a thinker runs the gamut of anyone from legitimate, brilliant scholars, Oxford University, Harvard, MIT, Caltech. There's also other black holes that aren't necessarily in the center of galaxies. Yes, a few times the mass of the sun. And they're from collapsed stars. So they are stars at the end of their life.

To guys like Alex Jones, whose, you know, thinking is more like conspiracy theories and lunacy. All of our kids are under attack. You mean 5G? And I'm mad at Trump for allowing 5G to come in.

This is the new internet protocol? You know why they won't let China put in WAPO? You know 5G and major, that's the big Chinese 5G. You are on fire today. And I should just be really upfront here and say that Joe Rogan is extraordinarily controversial as well. Devin, what makes this guy such a polarizing figure? Well, I think one of the interesting things about Rogan is that what makes him polarizing

is really just a handful of podcasts out of the 1,400 or so podcasts, particularly the ones with very right-leaning, alt-right-leaning, internet-friendly, sort of conspiracy theory minded people like Alex Jones, Milo Yiannopoulos. Everywhere that doesn't have a strong Christian heritage is a place with bad morals. That's a ridiculous statement. I think it should be perfectly reasonable, respectable thing to say our culture is better. I believe our culture is better than everywhere else in the world.

Peterson, I can't remember his name. Jordan Peterson. Jordan Peterson. He's a very big fan of Jordan Peterson. And what you find is there are systematic differences between men and women. And the biggest differences are that women experience more negative emotion and that they're more agreeable than men. And those podcasts, which, you know, are really a narrow sliver of the giant pool of what he's put out there, have accounted for a tremendous amount of the backlash against him and then there's also a lot of the transphobic borderline racist sometimes flat out racist

comments that he's made over the years because all these women that got beaten up by that man who became a woman who started fighting in mma she lost to a woman who she did yeah an actual woman yeah i said actual we're giggling we're gonna the Apes. We walked into Planet of the Apes. We walked into Africa, dude. Planet of the Apes didn't take place in Africa. That was a racist thing for me to say. And on the stage as a comedian. And that's one of the challenges here is that he's also a professional comedian.

Who likes stupid people? That's what evolution's all about. Those people are supposed to get over all right so there's always that line between when he's joking and when he's really causing offense okay the thing about this though is that despite the controversy of Joe Rogan, this is also one of the most popular talented broadcaster. He's able to fill space. And then also these spaces that he creates in terms of like, he doesn't really care what people think about in terms of sensitive topics. I think that is appealing to a lot of people, you know, not just in this current political context, but it's been appealing to people

for quite some time. Devin, I want to ask you about this as well, because you did your own personal Joe Rogan experience. You essentially immersed yourself in the world of Joe Rogan for six weeks. You ate what Joe Rogan eats and you drank what Joe Rogan drinks. So what was that all about? And how does that sort of, what did you learn about Joe Rogan's appeal by doing this? Well, yeah, it was one of those, it wasn't, I never wanted to become Joe Rogan at the end. I like being lazy. And part of the approach was simply to try to get in the head of these millions and millions of men, and not just men, women too, who love him.

And they continue to surprise where they come from, because they don't necessarily all look like what you expect them to look like. They don't necessarily all do what you think they're going to do for a living. But constitutionally, there are things that I think orient them around Joe. There is a kind of approach to life, a grab the day by the throat kind of aggressiveness, make your own destiny, that I think is very, very appealing to a lot of people who maybe don't feel a lot of control over their lives right now. And part of that was the routines, getting into the routines of a person who feels that way. And I realized that that was a big part of it for Joe. Routines is a big part of this sort of self-mastery that he practices and he preaches. There's been many, many, many,

many, many, many, many days where I didn't want to work out and I just forced myself. And I think there's very few people out there that know how to force themselves. You know, you must brush your teeth, you must exercise for 45 minutes. And I should say, when I say, look, you ingested, consumes the same things as Joe Rogan. This isn't like a Caesar salad and a pizza, like his favorite pizza. He eats some, you know, quote unquote, weird things. Yes. Yes, he does. I think the most notable was just waking up every morning as a, you know, I'm a very, very addictive coffee drinker.

And the hardest thing for me was adjusting to drinking what Joe drinks every morning, which is mushroom coffee, which is made from two of Joe's favorite mushrooms, lion's mane and chaga. And let's just say it was not a good start to my day. Okay, and through this experiment, Devin, like what was uniting appeal of Joe Rogan? Because as you say, he pulls from many different kinds of demographics. So what was the uniting appeal of Joe Rogan? Because as you say, he pulls from many different kinds of demographics. So what is the draw of Joe Rogan, no matter kind of who you are, if you're a fan of his? Part of the appeal is his curiosity. He just has this boundless, limitless, sometimes peculiar, sometimes dubious curiosity. And he is relatable in the way that he brings the expertise that all

these people have to a very mass audience. He doesn't talk like an expert. He also doesn't talk like us as journalists. And I think that that's a big part of it, too. He feels like a listener as well. He feels like someone who would be listening to Joe Rogan if he wasn't Joe Rogan himself. And what do you think people who are like, I'm not listening to a guy who interviews the likes of Alex Jones and is a bit shock jockey and goes on and drones on for three hours? What do you think people get wrong about Rogan and his listeners? Well, to start with, the Alex Joneses are so rare that if you were to listen to Joe Rogan for a three weeks and you'd be shocked in some ways that Alex Jones was ever on there. I've got a giant body of work. Like, you can only lie so much about what I am and what I've done. You know, when people watch the Elon Musk interview, they're not like, look at all the homophobia.

He hates women in that interview. It's like nonsense. And then I think the other thing is that it's not three hours of droning. It's three hours of, you know, really sustained, thoughtful, curious interviewing. And I think one thing that Joe probably doesn't get enough credit from, from people in our business is, as you know, Pia, interviewing someone for two and a half hours is really hard. That's an incredibly hard thing to do. And he does an extremely good job at it multiple times a week because he just has this energy and this curiosity that is sometimes a little too boundless. You kind of wish he'd rein it in because some of his ideas and some of the directions he goes are just looming.

Imagine if one day everyone agrees the smart thing to do is not just to have bumpers, but to perhaps have some sort of a magnetic repellent device. And as cars come close to each other, they automatically, radically decelerate. Well, I mean, our carselerate. Well, I mean, our cars break automatically. Listen, I listen to Joe Rogan for exactly that reason. Anyone that can hold

someone's attention in an interviewing format for three hours, and a lot of people listen to the full extent of his interviews when they're that long. There's something,

he's doing something quote-unquote right in terms of interviewing. What do you think that is, Nick? It really comes down to the fact that he kind of really does lean into and embody like, what is uniquely powerful about this sort of format, which is, hey, I'm really interested in this thing. And I really want to go really, really deep on this thing. And I don't really care if I'm not explaining it or presenting it well for people who are not already familiar or

inclined for this thing. I'm just going to go dig really deep into it and it sort of builds this you know psychological infrastructure of that you are getting this unfiltered access to this this person's like life is authenticity um and that i think it's it's meaningful for a lot of people who you know probably see a lot of artifice in the world and and feels some one way about it and it's it's it's i i kind of i've always sort of found that tension fascinating that a lot of the people who are inclined to say something about rogan or write about rogan are surprised about rogan um and when people who write about him are really familiar about it there's like an uneasiness when i hear from those people

i think i'm still trying to wrap my head around it and i don't think that's a really clear answer i don't think there are clean answers for somebody who is that um complex you know politically sociologically uh but it is it is like sort of something he's just sort of an interesting oddity here yeah he's he's an enigma right he's hard to kind of pin down politically or philosophically in this day and age where we like to generally put people into boxes rogan sort of defies that like if you you know look back a couple years ago he's in this day and age where we like to generally put people into boxes, Rogan sort of defies that. Like if you look back a couple years ago, he's in Toronto, and he reportedly refused to cross the picket line at his Just for Laughs show, where there was a worker protest. And I think that surprised people. Wait a minute, Joe Rogan wouldn't cross the picket line? So Nick, and I'm going to ask you this too, Devin,

but let me start with you, Nick. How do or can you determine what Joe Rogan, the man, believes? I think he is just always sort of in some level uncertain about something and is, you know, perpetually in that sort of like, I don't want to be super committed to one frame of thinking. I'm going to try to iterate again and again and again and again. But I think the boundlessness, I think Devin used that word, I think that's the right word to use. I think that sort of, it feels like something that is potentially dangerous for a lot of people. And I think in some ways, rightfully so. Because how that influences other people to sort of think about their ideologies, you know, maybe they aren't as rigorous as him. And that's maybe where you get some of these problems that people are afraid

about. And Devin, what would you add to that? What do you think Joe Rogan believes in at his core? I think if you're trying to understand how Joe is going to feel about something, it begins with radical free speech. I love gay people, but I make fun of them. I make fun of me. I make fun of my mom. I'll make fun of you when you're here. I'll make fun of you when you leave.

Sure. Doesn't mean I don't love them. Joe is a standup comic. Comics make their living, um, flirting with lines and crossing them. And so he's very threatened and very opposed to the elements of a liberal and progressive culture that gets very wound up about that. And that's often where you

see his flirtations with the right. It's very often related to deplatforming. That's the big overlap between the two of them. But at the same time, his politics are very, very leftist. I mean, there's a reason why Bernie Sanders was on his show. He has described himself, I think, rather comically as almost a socialist. I consider universal basic income a really good idea. I want free college education. Take it easy. But if you're talking about radical liberties, that's usually where you'll find Joe Rogan, you know, being very pro pot, universal health care. He has a lot of leanings in that direction. But what cuts against them is the sort of free speech and often, you know, gender and identity politics that he gets.

And that's where he screws himself up, too. That's where he says all of the stupid things that he says. Yeah, it wasn't just that he had Bernie Sanders on his show. I think I'll probably vote for Bernie. You could dig up dirt on every single human being that's ever existed if you catch them in their worst moment. You can't find very many with Bernie. It's that the Bernie Sanders campaign accepted an endorsement from Rogan, which was something that many Bernie followers were really upset about. Former Democratic political candidate Andrew Yang saw a huge boost in donations after he went on Rogan's show. So, Devin, talk to me more about that. Why do you think Rogan's become so important

to politicians? Well, he has this massive audience that he has tremendous influence over, and that politicians see in many ways as sort of up for grabs. They see them as the kind of people who might be Trump, might be Biden. Who knows? They don't know. We don't know. And they're right not to know. There's probably a lot mixed in there. You know, Devin Rogan recently said, look, I'd rather vote for Donald Trump, who he had been no fan of in the past than Joe Biden. I don't think he could handle anything. I mean, you're relying entirely on his cabinet. Like, if you want to talk about an individual leader that can communicate, he can't do that. So again, how should we understand Rogan's political leanings?

I mean, to be honest with you, that one is kind of baffling to me. I honestly don't know. I mean, I think that there's something provocative and punkish about Joe Rogan. I don't know that I necessarily believe him. But, you know, it is sort of a tenor. It's interesting. It's a tenor that reflects what you heard from a lot of Bernie people in that moment. There's sort of anti-establishment streak in Joe Rogan

that you may find in common with a lot of his listeners. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. So let's get to this new Spotify deal. Nick, generally what is the deal? How big is it? What Spotify has done is essentially not only bring

the jorgen experience onto the platform but secure it as an exclusive starting on september 1st the entire jre library will be available on spotify as well as all the other platforms then somewhere around the end of the year it will become exclusive to spotify including the video version of the podcast. So we're talking about one of the biggest podcasts in the world that it was a vital sort of part of the open podcast ecosystem goes straight to a platform that wants a lot from this space. And the deal, according to the Wall Street Journal, is valued somewhere like more than $100 million. A lot of that has also also includes performance incentives and things like that. But this is a multi-year licensing deal. It's not an acquisition.

And it is, I think, one of the most consequential developments in the podcast industry over the past couple of years, more so than Spotify acquiring The Ringer, which is Bill Simmons' media company that's very podcast-heavy, Spotify acquiring The Ringer, which is Bill Simmons' media company that's very podcast heavy, more so than buying Gimlet Media, more so than citing the Obamas as an exclusive content, sort of audio content provider to Spotify. This one's huge. This is really big. And it's not even big in terms of like the deal itself, but it seems to have a lot of people saying, look, this is potentially going to change podcasting. Do you think it will? And how? I think it fundamentally changes the power dynamic, whether it like, rewrites the way that we think about it. That is, I think, still remains to be seen. So the way that you have to sort of think about the podcast world right now is, you know, this whole open podcast ecosystem thing

I've been saying, it is how a lot of podcast publishers sort of believe and relate themselves to podcast distribution. They feel like they don't have to work with any one particular platform as a gatekeeper in order to publish your shows, build a business, grow their audiences, and make a living, maybe make a good fortune out of it. spotify by taking one of the biggest pieces away from open ecosystem potentially weakens that sort of open ecosystem like the system by which a lot of listeners listen to podcasts is through this like non-spotify platforms third-party podcast apps whether it's the apple podcast app on your on your iphone or if it's something like pocketcast or overcast this suggests that more listeners will be using Spotify as their primary listening platform. And as more people use Spotify to listen

to podcasts and not these other third party apps, it puts everybody who doesn't want to deal with Spotify in order to grow their business into something of a bind, potentially. So Nick, you know, Joe Rogan will still have total creative freedom over his show. Spotify says, look, that's going to happen. We also know that Rogan is a big free speech advocate and has remained independent up until now, probably, you know, in part to maintain that freedom over what he says and does. But what happens, I don't know, the next time he gets it and Alex Jones types on, and a lot of people will probably put pressure on Spotify to drop him, then what?

It's not an if,'s a win right there will be whether it's a couple of months from now whether it's within the first two years there will be a moment where spotify has to sort of make a decision of like all right like how do we um relate to this property that we have uh exclusively to our platform and i think they're gonna stick to a playbook that we've exclusively to our platform. And I think they're going to stick to a playbook that we've seen from other sort of big tech giant platforms, right? Like Facebook and where they, where they say that we are a distributor. We're not, we're not a media company necessarily. And so we were just here to facilitate pipes. I'm not so sure how that's going to work out, right? Because they are a publisher. They have bought podcast companies

to become a creator of original content. And though they don't own Jorgen, they do have some responsibility over what gets facilitated over the platform. Now, I should say that Spotify has, in the past, delisted shows from its platforms when it violated its hate speech policy, in particular, Alex Jones's podcast. So how that works out is something to be seen but that is i think the the one of the main things we're going to watch for like how spotify reacts to that moment will define spotify as a company moving forward i think and does spotify need rogan more than rogan needs spotify yes undoubtedly nick and devin thanks. Thanks for joining me. I appreciate it.

My pleasure. Thanks. Now, before we go today, I just want to let you know about a digital project CBC is working on that's really helpful if you're trying to stay up to date on Canada's COVID-19 numbers. It's called Tracking the Coronavirus, and it's a webpage where you can see the latest data on cases, deaths, and regional testing rates for all provinces and territories. And it's got some super helpful visualizations.

You can find all that at cbc.ca slash coronavirus tracker. I'm Pia Chattopadhyay. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. We'll talk again tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.