Front Burner - Jonah Hill and the rise of “therapy speak”

Episode Date: July 12, 2023

“Boundaries,” “trauma,” “holding space,” “gaslighting” — These are all examples of what’s known as “therapy speak”: Phrases and buzzwords that have made their way out of the therapist’s office, onto social media and into our everyday lives. But what happens when those same words are misunderstood or used in manipulative and harmful ways? That’s what many are asking after Jonah Hill’s ex-girlfriend, professional surfer Sarah Brady, posted screenshots of text messages from their past where the actor allegedly asked her to respect his “boundaries,” which included not posting swimsuit pictures or surfing with men. Today, we sat down with Rebecca Fishbein, a culture writer that’s been following the “therapy speak” phenomenon, to unpack the benefits and pitfalls of relationship discourse in a moment where so many use the language of psychotherapy. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Tamara Kandaker. How do I know if my therapist actually cares about me? In order for you to heal, what you have to do is you have to disconnect from thought. Boundaries aren't for them. They're for you.

You are safe with the parts of you that aren't fixed. You're not overreacting. You're feeling triggered. Over the last few years, as more and more people have made their mental health a priority, a lot of us have entered what the internet calls our healing era. And words that you'd normally hear in therapy, like trauma and triggered and boundaries, have become part of our day-to-day vocabulary. This is what's known as therapy speak.

And it's been in the news the last few days because of some text messages leaked by the ex-girlfriend of actor Jonah Hill. Jonah Hill's ex-girlfriend Sarah Brady accuses the star of emotional abuse during their relationship. On July 6th, the 26-year-old California surfer posted a professional photo of herself wearing a white crop top and miniskirt to her Instagram, writing, quote, reviving a pic I took down by request of a misogynist narcissist. In the leaked text, Jonah Hill lists a bunch of things that he's not okay with Sarah Brady, a professional surfer, doing if she wants to be in a relationship with him, like posting pictures of herself in swimsuits or having friendships with quote-unquote

unstable women from her wild recent past. And he calls these his boundaries. This has sparked a major conversation online about how therapy speak can be misused and comes as some mental health experts are saying this kind of language can also make us lonelier and more isolated. Today on the show, we're talking to Rebecca Fishbein, a culture writer who's written about therapy speak for bustle. We're going to talk about how it's become so common, when it's helpful, and when it isn't. isn't. Hi, Rebecca. It's great to talk to you. Hi, Tamara. So before we get into some of the issues around this, for people who might not be familiar, what is therapy speak and what does it sound like? So therapy speak is prescriptive language used to describe certain therapeutic concepts. It's not your fault that you have triggers, just like it's not your fault that you experienced

trauma. The trauma that you experience... It might be something you'd hear in a clinical setting with a therapist. It might be something that you hear on social media. They're not necessarily clinical terms, but gaslighting might be considered therapy speak, even though a therapist probably won't use the term gaslighting. Boundaries, that's something you would discuss with a therapist and you might hear it on social media. You might use it with your friends. It's pretty formal language and it feels

diagnostic. This is what good boundaries sound like. Here's a little formula I use to set boundaries without sounding rude. When my friend says we need to start implementing in this type of direction and this type of boundaries in our relationship. And I guess just like if some other examples of therapy speak and correct me if I'm wrong might be like coping mechanisms, codependence, narcissism, things like inner child, right? Any other kind of prevalent examples that come to mind? Using the word toxic, giving someone a diagnosis like, oh, you know, you're so OCD or I'm so OCD, like obsessive compulsive disorder is something you'd be diagnosed with by a clinician, but it also might be, you know, a thing that you throw around

casually, you know, talking about how you are always cleaning your apartment. And so where are we seeing this kind of language popping up right now? I mean, it's really everywhere. It's entered into sort of everyday conversation. I use it with my friends sometimes. I mean, you'll see it a lot on social media. You'll see it on TV. You'll see it online. There was an article a few years ago that was like, Donald Trump is gaslighting America. I think that kind of helped put it into everyday discourse. It's really everywhere. You mentioned that you can see this kind of content on social media. And I wonder who are some of the most popular creators of content that might teach

you about therapy speak? I know therapy Jeff is a really big one. Your reoccurring relationship issues may stem from a core attachment wound. Identifying this wound could be key to resolving these patterns. Okay. If you end up on therapy TikTok, you'll find lots of different social media therapists

who are offering advice. And there's nothing wrong with any of this advice. Like it's great that we're learning more about our mental health and our ways of communicating and taking care of ourselves. It's just that without doing the sort of work of therapy and sitting and understanding these concepts, they can get thrown around in a way that feels,

it feels like you're giving someone a diagnosis. There's something more polished about the way that you're communicating, even if you're just sort of like idly throwing a word around. I've also heard a lot of therapy speak on TV shows about therapy, things like couples therapy and shrinking, which have been pretty popular in recent years. And there's also been books that people have been reading, things like Attached and The Body Keeps the Score. So there's a lot of different places where people are

learning this kind of language, right? Yeah. And again, it's great that we're interrogating ourselves and our own mental wellness. I think there's been more of a push, at least that I've seen in the last decade or so, to take care of ourselves, not just our physical bodies, but our mental well-being. And these are all helpful tools in helping you engage in, you know, your own mental exploration. But therapy is a lot of work and you're not necessarily getting the full picture, you know, from a TikTok video or even I read Attached. I loved it. I talked about it with my therapist and she was like, I do want you to know that it's just a theory. So we're not really all capable of giving each other diagnosis or diagnosing ourselves. What do you think is driving the popularity of Therapy Speak and therapy content in general?

What's been driving that in the last couple of years? The experts have pointed out that therapy is more in the culture. It's hard to know exactly what sparked that. More and more people go to therapy. It's still not super accessible, but people are learning to prioritize mental health in a way that I don't think they were doing before. My parents were not particularly big therapy people, and I've been in therapy for years and so have most of my friends. Whatever it is, we've become more comfortable, you know, thinking about ourselves and realizing it's okay to ask for help and to seek it. What kind of impact did experts say the pandemic had on all of this? I mean, in general, the experts that I spoke with noted that we've become more conflict diverse. In general, conflict is hard. And with social media and with

texting and not seeing people face to face, it's certainly much easier to communicate through your phone with a stranger or I mean, it could be your friend, but you're not really thinking of them as like, oh, there's a person on the other side of the interaction. I mean, TikTok has become bigger in the last few years. Like people are more invested in what's happening, you know, on their phones and social media. So, you know, you're living through a screen less so now, but certainly you were for a few years. So that could certainly help. I understand how people are becoming more acquainted with this language, but why do you think people have embraced it the way that they have? What purpose does it serve and what is made easier when you're using TherapySpeak? It's empowering to learn about setting boundaries. It's empowering to learn about prioritizing yourself. It's empowering to learn that you don't always have to neglect your own needs and your own well-being for somebody else. And when you feel

like you're sad or there's something wrong with you or you're not trying hard enough and you watch a TikTok video that's like, hey, actually, you're fine. You're doing fine. You're doing great. This is normal. Or this is something that people feel all the time. I mean, that's, that's also validating. Therapy is expensive, it's hard to access. So having access to social media to articles that are, you know, self help books and self help articles is also empowering and can make you feel seen and heard. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel

investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together.

To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. We're having this conversation because of what's come out over the weekend about Jonah Hill's relationship with his ex-girlfriend. He asked her not to post pictures of herself in certain outfits or hang out with certain people and said that those were his boundaries. What do you make of the way that boundaries was used in the screenshots that she shared. Boundaries are, you know, parameters that you set with yourself or with other people that have to do with how you're being interacted with directly. So, you know, a way to set a boundary is if you're in a romantic relationship and your partner is, you know, criticizes the way that you dress, you can set a boundary by being like, hey,

it would make me more comfortable if you didn't criticize when I wear green. You can't set boundaries in a way that controls how someone behaves independent of you. So you can't say, I don't like when you wear green, so you have to stop wearing green. That's my boundaries. That's actually, that's a preference. Your preference may be that your partner not wear green. Your preference may be that you have a partner who doesn't post photos on social media. I mean, you can state a preference, but when you invoke mental health, then you kind of created this barrier that they can't cross if they're an empathetic person who wants to make sure that you're comfortable on your mental health journey. So it's not a boundary. The texts are not describing somebody's boundaries. They're describing someone's preferences. And it feels very controlling.

And people have been pointing out the irony with this Jonah Hill thing is that he's kind of made a name for himself as this really evolved guy. He released a Netflix doc about the transformative power of therapy. I'm just going to start by acknowledging how odd this endeavor is, a patient making a movie about his therapist. But my life has gotten immeasurably better as a result of working with you. If it worked for me, maybe it will work for other people. You know, I've watched the documentary. So to me, it was kind of surprising to see this coming from him. But women have been pointing out that just because men have gone to therapy, it doesn't mean that they're not misogynistic. Yeah, I mean, it's true for all genders. People can overstep, they can, you know, misuse the term boundaries. I did speak to some

experts who cautioned about intentionality here because it's possible that, you know, misuse the term boundaries. I did, I did speak to some experts who cautioned about intentionality here, because it's possible that, you know, Jonah Hill doesn't know that these are, that's not how you use a boundary. Like, people may not know that they're talking, that they're not able to make these demands upon a partner. I mean, you really shouldn't. You should interrogate why something makes you uncomfortable and, you know, why you feel insecure and whether you'd like somebody else to impose those kinds of parameters on you. We talked earlier about examples of therapy speak that have crossed over into mainstream culture. But beyond this one example with Jonah Hill, what are some examples of therapy speak that experts have told you they're seeing getting weaponized in conflict?

So the word narcissist gets thrown around a lot. And narcissistic personality disorder is a real thing. It makes up about two to five percent of the population. And it can be very difficult to have a relationship, familial friendship, romantic relationship with someone who has NPD. But, you know, if you're in a friendship with somebody and you feel maybe they're thinking about themselves too much or they're not treating you the way that you want to be treated, that's totally fair. You should have a conversation with them to work on that. Or if you don't want to be friends with them anymore, that's fine. But throwing the word narcissist at them can be

destabilizing when you're on the other side of that interaction if you're not a narcissist. Because it feels like you're getting a diagnosis from somebody. Like, you know, a therapist can diagnose you with NPD, but, you know, your romantic partner can't necessarily do that. I did interview somebody for the bustle piece who was accused of being a narcissist by somebody. And, you know, she was really devastated. She like called all of her friends and her family and was like, am I a bad person?

Am I a narcissist? Because when someone uses that kind of language to confer a diagnosis upon you, it feels really significant and real. And something that an expert I interviewed for this piece told me, her name is Marissa Franco. She wrote this great book, Platonic. If you want to learn more about platonic relationships and friendships, I highly recommend it. She said that people can be toxic, but often relationships and dynamics are toxic. So there are two people in every relationship. It's not necessarily that one person's a bad person and the other is a good person. They're complicated. They're fluid. Sometimes the dynamic is just not working. You're not compatible at that moment or

in general. Yeah. A couple of other ones that came to mind for me were gaslighting and triggering. Yeah. So gaslighting is actually not, it's not a therapy term. It's from the movie Gaslight. I spoke with some experts for the bustle piece who were like, yeah, gaslight is just kind of a word that's been invented. It doesn't mean that your lived experience isn't real. If you feel like you're being gaslit, it's very possible that that's happening. But it does get used, I think, kind of outside the context a lot. Triggering. I just interviewed somebody who was talking to me about the word triggering. And it's hard to tell somebody else like, oh, your lived experience isn't real.

So if someone's telling you that they're feeling triggered by an experience, they may very well be triggered by that experience. It's when they're feeling that they're being triggered is infringing on your sense of interiority and your ability to kind of live the life that you want to live. Triggering showed up in the, the Jonah Hill, the alleged Jonah Hill texts. If you're telling your partner, it's triggering to me when you post bikini pics, even though, you know, your job, like your job is to be a surfer and a model. So, you know, I'm telling you that an action that you're doing independent of me is hurting me.

That's when it becomes kind of squidgy. It's interesting. One of my first exposures to the world of therapy was through Esther Perel. She's a psychotherapist who's become kind of a household name because of her podcast, Where Should We Begin? And it's the show where you get to listen in and she's counseling a couple and you get essentially you get a lot of her insight for free. And Perel, a few days ago, she actually talked about the rise of therapy speak and she was saying that it's making people more isolated and alone. And I was wondering if you

could explain how it might be doing that. finding a lot of boundaries and being really quick to abandon relationships that aren't optimal will set people up to be more isolated and lonely. So if you feel like, hey, my friend said something that made me upset, I'm not going to be friends with her anymore. I'm just going to set a boundary and be like, hey, we're not talking anymore. Maybe you do need to end that friendship. Maybe this friend is really somebody who's harmed you in a way, or maybe you need to have a conversation with that friend. Maybe you take some space. People and relationships are really fluid. is really somebody who's harmed you in a way, or maybe you need to have a conversation with that friend. Maybe you take some space. People and relationships are really fluid. So having fixed ways to describe particular relationships or people will cheat you of some of that flexibility.

This kind of makes me think of this TikTok that went viral a while ago. I think you mentioned it in your piece. This therapist was acting out a script for how you might break up with a friend, and it came off as really cold and impersonal. And the discourse around it is probably the first time I heard the term, the HRification of relationships. Yeah. So there was a clinical psychologist whose TikTok video went viral, and it was talking about how to break up with a friend. I've noticed you've been withdrawn and haven't wanted to hang out recently. What's going on? I've treasured our season of friendship, but we're moving in different directions in life. I don't have the capacity to invest in our friendship any longer.

I just want to be honest and upfront so I don't disappoint your expectations. And that psychologist actually said later that, you know, I think there was a lot of criticism and people got really mad about it online. And the therapist, the psychologist said, you know, this is actually just meant to be a blueprint. It's not really intended to be like, this is exactly how you should end this friendship. okay to end friendships. Like it's okay to end relationships that don't serve you. Like that's totally fine. People shouldn't feel compelled to like hang on to friends that, you know, they think have been not good friends back or to stay in relationships that aren't making them happy, or even to have familial relationships that, you know, feel harmful. Yeah, that's kind of where I was hoping to end this trend. It does point to people wanting tools to handle their day-to-day issues in healthier ways. And this kind of language is really helpful in a lot of contexts when you're trying to

navigate a complicated emotional situation. So I'm wondering if you could maybe leave us with some advice for how people can use the lessons that they learn from therapy and therapy speak and apply it in a way that isn't problematic or manipulative? Well, I think you should think about how you'd want someone to have the conversation with you. Like if you want to end a friendship with someone, that's totally fine. But how would you want, you know, your friend to end the friendship with you? Do you want them to send you a text being like, hey, I'm done? Or do you want them to be like, hey, let's talk. I feel like we're in different places. I want to know your perspective. Maybe there's a way we can work on it. Maybe not. In terms of setting

boundaries, think about whether someone is interacting in a way that's making you feel really uncomfortable and it has to do with you or someone's just doing something that like generally you don't like, but it doesn't have to do with you. That's just how they're living their lives. I think this is relatively new. We've sort of entered into a world of therapy culture, which is not a bad thing. Like it's great that people are being encouraged to, you know, take care of their mental wellness as well as their, you know, their physical health. You know, the important thing is like therapy is, therapy is a really good tool. It's, it's one tool and like a big toolbox of learning about ourselves and our friends and caring for people and each other and ourselves. Okay, Rebecca, thank you so much for this. I really appreciate it. Thank you. All right, that's all for today.

I'm Tamara Kendacker. Thank you so much for listening to FrontBurner, and I will talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.