Front Burner - Juarez to Roxham Road: A perilous migration

Episode Date: March 8, 2023

Last year, about 39,000 people entered Canada at Roxham Road, an irregular border crossing in Quebec, in search of asylum. It was a record number — and so far this year, the upward trend is continuing. The steady flow of migrants entering Canada at Roxham Road has become a political issue, but how to handle the stream of people seeking asylum at the border is an open question. On this episode, Paul Hunter, a senior correspondent with CBC News, takes us to the US-Mexico border in Juarez to see what we can learn from migrants there about the issue at America’s northern border and Roxham Road. Clarification: In this episode we discuss a video shown to senior correspondent Paul Hunter by a Venezuelan migrant couple Nelson Ramirez, and his wife, Yescee Urbina at an aid office in Juarez, Mexico. The video depicts a crocodile swimming with a human leg in its mouth.  We reported that the video was filmed during the couple’s journey through the Panamanian jungle. However, the video shown to CBC News was filmed a few years ago. Ramirez showed the video to convey the desperation and danger that migrants from Central and South America experience trying to seek asylum further north. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Alex Panetta, in for Jamie Poisson. I'm Alex Panetta, in for Jamie Poisson. How did you find out about this route? I got to see it on the TV. Yes, and I went to Google, I went to search Google,

and I figured out this is what everybody's doing, that Canada has a future for the children, for everybody. Migrants walking into Canada. A phenomenon that's been growing for years, particularly at one spot, Roxham Road in Quebec, just south of Montreal. A dead-end road that for nearly five years, migrants fleeing war, persecution, and economic hardship have used as a pipeline into Quebec. It's not an actual border crossing. It's really just a country road that ends at the border. But thousands of people have

been walking up to that point each year to step into Canada and claim asylum. Just because you come here doesn't mean you get to stay. Yes, yes. And we believe in this. Canada can solve our problem. That's why we are here. We are safe. And we don't have any other choice to go back. We don't have any other place to go back. Our mind is made up. There are now RCMP officers stationed there and a facility to handle asylum seekers.

And political pressure is growing, especially in Quebec, where the popular premier is mounting a vocal campaign against the federal government. It's also an issue in Ottawa, where there are questions about what the prime minister can do about the steady flow of people. It is his job to close the border, and we're calling him to do it at the Roxham Road passage within 30 days. If Pierre Poliov wants to build a wall at Roxham Road, someone could do that. The problem is we have 6,000 kilometers

worth of undefended shared border with the United States, and as we saw with tragedies at Emerson, as we've seen at challenges elsewhere across the country, people will choose to cross elsewhere. Last month, I traveled to the U.S.-Mexican border in Arizona, and I heard some people muse about maybe going to Canada. But CBC senior correspondent Paul Hunter made a similar trip to the El Paso-Texas border with Juarez, Mexico, and he heard a lot from people set on Canada as their ultimate destination. What you hear down there at that southern border can tell you a whole lot about the situation up at Roxham Road. To hash this out, Paul joins us now.

Hi, Paul. Hey, Alex. How are you doing? Well, thank you. So you were in Juarez, Mexico, to report on migration from there. Let's start by talking about the people you met. Where are they coming from? What did they tell you? Yeah, well, multiple countries.

Mostly Venezuela, in terms of the people we spent some time with. But we came across migrants from throughout Central and South America. At one point, we were in a migrant aid center in Juarez, and there was a group of people sitting around a table filling out forms and such. And I asked, okay, where are they all from? I thought they were all together, but they were not. And one by one, different people rhymed off. Nicaragua, Ecuador, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala. But far and away the country of origin for most right now was Venezuela. We met Venezuelans in that aid center, out at the wall itself. We watched Venezuelans cross the Rio Grande into America.

We met others at a migrant shelter in Juarez and multiple families from Venezuela now living out on the streets of Juarez. But in Juarez right now are migrants from throughout Central and South America. You saw some pretty gruesome images, videos people recorded with their phone from the journey. Can you talk to me about that? Nelson Ramirez and his wife, Jeske Urbina, paid smugglers $5,000 U.S. to get them out of Venezuela and up to Juarez. I want to say both were in their 30s, I think. Both were middle-class professionals in Venezuela.

One was in sales, the other a criminal lawyer. But they belonged to a political party in that country in opposition to the party in power. And as a result, had been physically threatened and told me they feared for their lives if they stayed. So they fled. The smugglers got them, this is what $5,000 buys you, they got them onto the top of a freight train boxcar for some of the journey out in the open. That's you. Mm-hmm. On top of the train.

. But when they got to Panama, they had to walk through the infamous Darien Gap, about 100 kilometers of jungle by foot, where if the snakes don't get you, the crocodiles will. Nelson showed us photos from his phone... of the dead bodies they had to walk over. It was just lying there, decaying.

It was just, it was, it was grotesque. Including, by the way, children, bodies of children. And then he says to me, look at this, and he plays a video of a crocodile in the river, just kind of floating, drifting downstream, a couple of meters away from where they stood. Him and his wife, trying to get away from Venezuela in the middle of this Panamanian jungle. Crocodile floats by with a human leg sticking out of its mouth. It was, Alex, it was unreal. This is where you're walking. You're ready.

Take him, coming up. Alex it was unreal. This is where you're walking He must have been terrified you saw this many times I've never seen anything like it and this is what they went through To get to Juarez to knapsacks is all they had with them They left children behind in the hopes they can bring them north eventually if they do get somewhere where they can make a new life. But I'm telling you, the Croc video was something else. Nelson just shook his head in disbelief as we watched it. Whatever had just happened there had just happened. The leg was sticking out of its mouth.

It was horrifying. And I'm going to say it's typical of what can happen to all those migrants trying to make that journey. It's unthinkable. I mean, how are these people faring? How are they doing emotionally, physically? Do you get any sense of that? My sense is they're on the edge of losing it. I asked Jeske what she would say to her kids, who they left behind. And she broke down in tears. They had held it together until that point, right? Because they're kind of on this journey and they're trying to get somewhere. And I think they have that focus and it keeps them sort of mentally stable. But when you remind them of the larger circumstances, including what they just went through to get there, past the crocodiles and through that jungle and on top of trains. And they paid all their life savings to, you know, cartel approved smugglers.

And they're looking ahead because they can't look back. Talk to me about the rumors you heard, you know, the rumors about getting to Canada from all the way down there. Yeah, no one knows where this story started, but it was rampant among the migrants that we met when we were in Juarez. Story was that if you could get yourself across the other side of the border, past the wall, which runs right between El Paso and Juarez and beyond. But if you could get yourself past the wall, there'd be buses waiting with free passage to Canada. Have you heard the rumor about buses to Canada?

The night we got there, and again the following day when we were in Juarez, there was effectively this surge for the wall, streams of migrants from all directions, only to be stopped at the wall, of course. And if they looked through it, they'd see that there were no buses. It was totally fake news, right? Again, where the story came from, nobody knows, but everybody heard it, and it's as if everybody wanted to believe it, right? Word has spread, certainly in Juarez, as we were told by migrants and by aid workers, word has spread that Canada is receptive to migrants, that they'll be treated well in Canada,

and there are more opportunities for migrants in Canada relative to the United States. Everyone we met, Alex, everyone wanted to get to Canada. It was remarkable. One aid worker told me that word has come back from Haitian migrants who've made it into Canada, and the word is that the place is welcoming. There are jobs, lives to be made. And you can imagine how that would resonate with those in Juarez staring at that border wall. But they still have to get into America, past the wall. And that, you wall. No easy task, right? One migrant that we're speaking with wondered, how about a two-week pass to allow me through

the US up to the Canadian border or some sort of humanitarian corridor? I'm not sure, me personally here, I'm not sure either of those is likely to come to pass, but this is what people were thinking in Juarez when we were there, or at least they were hoping. So, as you alluded to, every border community looks a little different. There are different circumstances wherever you go. So I saw people cross into Arizona, but what do migrants see in the Juarez area? What awaits them? Can you paint a picture for us of what that border looks like?

Yeah, a couple of things. There's the big wall, right? And there are people in Juarez who are there to help them in any way they can. So on the first part, the wall, man, it's something else. I've seen it multiple times, certainly from the American side looking south. This was my first time at the wall looking north. You know, it's the big pillars that you see, and in parts it's kind of, it's more like a metal mesh.

But it's intimidating, right? Like it's not an easy thing that you think you could possibly get past. You know, the U.S. side, you look south, it's clean. On the Mexican side, it's littered in graffiti in a lot of places. Very different to look at. I saw an image painted of Donald Trump on one part in a kind of, you know, a KKK hood, you know, not subtle messaging there. There are gates in places because the wall is often not right on the border, but just inside on U.S. territory. And so there are border patrol agents in their SUVs. We saw Humvees and border guards in military outfits, tons of cameras everywhere. But as well, evidence that migrants make it past all that regardless. You can see handprints going up those

pillars where people have climbed. In one place, just outside Juarez, we were driving along, we saw places where people had kind of tried to rip through that mesh, or we saw one where there'd been a hole cut in the mesh, like kind of one square meter big enough to climb through and make a run for it. Kind of where there's a will, there's a way kind of thing. And by the way, for those who do manage to climb over, it's a big drop, right?

We saw migrants at a shelter in El Paso lying in bed with with you know broken legs That had broken from the fall on the other side you have a ladder up on one side But then you're on your own right and it's a big drop and people people are hurting themselves, but for those who can't get across There are services in Juarez. So this is the other thing you see lots of little shelters that are jammed with migrants But there are services aimed at finding shelter or even work to allow people to live in Juarez while they figure out what will happen with the rest of their life. Countless can't get further north. Right.

And they can't go back to where they came from because the risk there, in their view, is too great. So they're stuck. Right. And so we met aid workers in Juarez trying to help them land safely where they are, at least for now. Well, so I guess I want to ask you why people go through all that trouble of trying to cross over that wall. Can you sort of walk us through the reason that people are trying to get into the United States through such unconventional means? get into the United States through such unconventional means. Everyone we met is not there to sightsee. They are desperate to get away from a place they can no longer live. I think it's easy to think that migrants just want some place to live on easy street. They are going through these jungles,

riding on tops of trains, risking their lives to get to a place where they want to contribute to society. Everybody we spoke with said that to us, we want to work. Everybody we spoke with said that to us. We want to work. We want to contribute to a place that will have us in a place that we can live.

That's the why. Because they can't stay where they were. And that's the problem when they're stuck, not able to get further north, because they can't go back. So they end up in this kind of limbo and they don't know what the future brings. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years.

I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Let's talk about Title 42. It's a very bureaucratic name for this, but basically,

it's a public health restriction. What does it mean and how does it drive people to those irregular checkpoints versus regular border crossings? Alex, thanks for asking me to explain Title 42. Very much appreciated because it is complex, right? But here's the skinny, right? This is a many, many decades old provision in US law that that allowed, you know, provisionally allowed the US to turn away people seeking asylum from certain countries in the name of protecting the U.S. from communicable diseases. Prior to this instance, it was last used in 1929, right? So normally, if an asylum seeker somehow crosses into the U.S. illegally, terra firma America, and says, I seek asylum, the U.S. is bound by treaty to accept them until it determines their claim is valid. Donald Trump invoked Title 42 in the name of COVID. And since 2020, the U.S. has turned back more than 2 million refugee claimants under Title 42. It is complicated, but it stayed in place under Joe Biden.

But with the Biden administration having declared the national COVID emergency to be ending this coming May, so too will the rationale for Title 42. So that would seem to reopen the doors, but, and again, it's complicated, there are steps coming into play that are expected to extend the effect of Title 42 for at least several more weeks or months. So ultimate fate on that to be determined. Bottom line though, as it stands, if you cross illegally and if you're caught, and if you say, I claim asylum, normally the magic words that would allow you to stay, you can be sent back to Mexico immediately. Do the same at a regular crossing. You still face a very long wait for processing. So I want to talk about the things you heard at the border from

people, the level of awareness of Canada. When I talked to people at the Arizona border, I heard very little knowledge of Canada. One young student from Columbia said she wanted to maybe go to university in Toronto because she heard Canada, in her words, had a governor who welcomes foreign students. I asked if she was talking about Justin Trudeau. She said, yeah, maybe that name sounds familiar. So what I'm wondering is the people you talk to, did they have a sense of what it means to go to Canada, of what that country looks like, what the journey looks like? My sense of their sense of Canada is that it is welcoming.

I think the messaging that has come from the United States, and no matter where you are in the world, I think the headlines will underline for you that there are many in the United States who do not welcome migrants, politicians, and so-called regular people alike. The brand of the United States in the eyes of the migrants that we spoke with

is that of a less welcoming place for people in their circumstance. Likewise, the brand of Canada is quite different. Haitian migrants who'd somehow sent word back down to Juarez, to the fellow who runs the shelter that was telling us what the buzz was there, from the Haitians who'd made it, the brand is that you can make a life in Canada, that it is more welcoming to migrants. And again, everybody told me, we want to work. We want to do what we can. We want to be a part of society. We don't want to go to America. And don't get me wrong, Alex, I'm not saying that this is everybody, because there are plenty who still want to get to America. And I think that's demonstrated by the throngs that are at the border. But what was surprising to me was the great number who put Canada out there, who had an idea that it was a welcoming country, certainly in contrast to the headlines that they'd seen about the political fighting that goes on over this issue in America. I don't think people appreciate the extent to which you're going to see a lot more of those headlines, negative headlines about migration from the United States. The Biden administration is looking to severely toughen up its asylum policies the next few weeks. So you're going to have maybe more of that movement toward Canada.

Can you talk to me about what happens when people get to northern cities and states and how they wind up at places like Roxham Road? Well, part of it is the journey through America once and if they get there. And look, the real answer, Alex, is the whole thing is chaos, right? Right. It's it's a complete mess driven in part by the numbers of migrants driven by the inability of U.S. governments at all levels to deal with those numbers, to process them, as it were. In part, it's the politics of it all with, you know, certain politicians pushing back against migrants broadly over, you know, fears they're taking jobs from Americans, potentially. And so certainly what we've seen a lot of lately is certain U.S. governors putting migrants in buses and sending them north, often simply for show. Fifty undocumented migrants, including several children, arriving in Martha's Vineyard, flown in by Florida Republican Governor and presidential hopeful Ron DeSantis, an effort to turn the spotlight to immigration just two months before the midterm elections.

Drop them off at Kamala Harris's place in D.C. or outside Union Station in D.C. You deal with it, is the message. And there's been tremendous pushback to that because it's seen as using migrants for show, forgetting the simple dire straits that they're in. You know, we've got the mayor of New York now putting some in buses and sending them up toward the Quebec border, toward Roxham Road. Mayor Eric Adams told a local Fox station migrants are inundating his city, so his administration is paying for their bus tickets to leave.

We found that people had other destinations, but they were being compelled only to come to New York City, and we are assisting and interviewing those who seek to go somewhere else. Some want to go to Canada. That's a big part of what's fueling the situation there these days. Put yourself in the mindset of migrants, though, would say many. And one can only imagine that all they're thinking is just let me live a life. And yet they're caught up in the politics of this as they find themselves

sent further north. All of a sudden they land at the border, but then that messaging they'd heard in war kicks in. Now if only I can get myself into Canada and look how close I am. The challenge when you get to Canada is how you cross. If you cross at a so-called regular crossing, Niagara Falls, let's say, and claim asylum, you will be turned back by law because you've come from the United States. You can't claim asylum at a regular crossing into Canada from the United States. claim asylum at a regular crossing into Canada from the United States. You can at a so-called irregular crossing. This is Roxham Road for example and by law you step foot across the border there where RCMP will almost certainly be waiting for you and if you say the magic words I claim asylum you will be allowed in for processing. But unlike in the United States, you will be allowed to stay in Canada during that processing, which can take, let's say, two years, I think, last I'd heard. So it's a very different circumstance. But first, you have to get to the border. And you have to get across from, certainly for those coming from Central and South America, you have to get through the United States simply to get there. You know, in recent weeks, we've heard more and more about the pressure this trend is

putting on communities. Just the other day, there was an open letter in the Globe and Mail by the Quebec Premier, François Legault, in which he wrote, we don't have the resources, the housing to deal with this. Now it's spreading to other provinces where migrants are being sent by bus. You know, what's being done in these communities in Canada where they're bused? Look, the numbers are way smaller, to be fair, than what's happening at the U.S.-Mexico border. But yeah, like it's overwhelming in places.

And so right now, Niagara Falls, for example, you've got 2,000 hotel rooms set aside for migrants as temporary housing. Our CBC News friend, Joanna Romiliotis, has done some terrific reporting on this. And they're in limbo, basically, while they wait to see what will happen with them. In the vernacular of the bureaucracy, it's until they can be transitioned into the community. But then you learn there is no housing, or at least certainly not enough affordable housing. So it's a mess, and it continues to grow. The lineups are still there at Roxham Road, and the crowds are still there in Juarez.

Everybody wants to get north, be it to the United States or to Canada. But these migrants are going to keep north, be it to the United States or to Canada. But these migrants are going to keep coming. And there isn't an infrastructure in place that is capable right now of dealing with them. We met with somebody on the El Paso side who runs a shelter for migrants who made it across. And he told me the real question that never seems to get answered is in acknowledging that this is a massive worldwide challenge. The real question is, how do we as a society, as humans, deal with other humans in need? Do we wall them out? wall them out? Do we close the border? Do we say no? Or do we as a society work hard together to try to find a way to help? Because the problem, the challenge isn't going anywhere. Paul,

thank you very much for doing this. My pleasure, Alex. One other thing to watch on this story, President Biden heads to Ottawa this month. Canada's immigration minister just visited Washington, and this is atop the agenda, slowing migration. The U.S. wants fewer migrants through Canada. Canada wants to renegotiate the third country agreement, and both are looking for help from each other to do that. That's all for today. I'm Alex Panetta, and thank you for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.