Front Burner - Justin Trudeau, WE Charity and a third ethics investigation

Episode Date: July 7, 2020

Federal Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion is investigating Prime Minister Justin Trudeau over the Liberal government's decision to task WE Charity with administering a $900-million student grant program. On Friday, WE Charity stepped back from the contract, which had faced criticism because of the Trudeau family's close association with the charity. Today, CBC parliamentary reporter Catherine Cullen on the now-cancelled partnership, the surrounding controversy and why the ethics commissioner got involved.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Josh Bloch. Late last week, at 4.59pm on Friday to be exact, a tweet was sent out from the Office of Canada's Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.

It announced that the Ethics Commissioner was investigating Prime Minister Justin Trudeau for the third time. Ethics Commissioner Mary Dawson found the Prime Minister broke four rules by staying on the Aga Khan's private island in the Bahamas. For SNC-Lavalin at the Montreal Corpus. To pressure a Prime Minister to pressure a Justice Minister. There was an erosion of trust between my office... This time, the investigation centers on the Trudeau government's decision to task the WE Charity, This time, the investigation centers on the Trudeau government's decision to task the WE Charity, headed up by Mark and Craig Kielberger, with managing a $900 million student grant program.

A decision that proved controversial from the moment it was announced. The opposition is calling for a federal watchdog to look at how a charity with ties to the prime minister......investigation into Trudeau for potentially breaching the Conflict of Interest Act. We will continue to work hard to make sure that young people get the opportunities to serve their country, but it will no longer be with the organization WE. Today, CBC's parliamentary reporter Catherine Cohen on the now-cancelled partnership, the surrounding controversy, and why the ethics commissioner got involved.

This is FrontBurner. Hello, Catherine. Hello. So who would have thought that, you know, of all the billions of dollars worth of programs launched in the last few months, that this one involving students and a charity would get Trudeau into hot water. Yeah, well, you know who didn't think that? Clearly Justin Trudeau's government. I think there are a few people right now who are scratching their heads because it really doesn't seem like they saw this particular problem coming.

Right. I think to understand how this partnership with a charity landed Justin Trudeau with an ethics investigation, we have to go back to the beginning when this partnership was announced. We've launched an extremely ambitious program to get young people serving in their communities, young people helping out during this time of COVID. Can you tell me what was the arrangement between the federal government and We Charity that was announced back in late June? So the prime minister announced, in in fact a couple months before that, that as part of

the suite of programs that the federal government wanted to offer students, they were going to be offering this student grant program, ultimately called the Canada Student Service Grant Program. If you're volunteering instead of working, we're going to make sure that you have support too. Students helping in the fight against COVID-19 this summer will soon be eligible for a thousand dollars to five thousand dollars depending on your hours through the new Canada Student Service Grant. And so the idea is that it pairs students across the country

up with charities. Students put in work somewhere between 100 and 500 hours and they earn some money depending on how much work that is. So this was supposed to help them boost their income, give them a little bit of money for heading back to school. And it was also supposed to address another problem as well. A lot of members of the not-for-profit and charity sector had been saying they were facing really dire straits in the midst of this COVID-19 outbreak, right? Because as everyone worries about their own finances, they're certainly not donating in the way that they used to. But there's also the challenge that, you know, your volunteers can't necessarily come into various physical spaces. We know there are groups like the Canadian Cancer

Society had to cancel its daffodil campaign. The sector as a whole had been really crying out for help from the federal government. And this was supposed to give them a bit of a boost, too, in terms of the efforts of all of these students. But then rather than the federal government distributing this money, they got this charity called WE to do it. The idea, as it has been described, particularly by the Prime Minister, he says that it was the civil servants, the non-partisan government workers, the department came to the Prime Minister's office and said, listen, there is only one group that can do this.

And as the public service dug into it, they came back with only one organization that was capable of networking and organizing and delivering this program on the scale that we needed it, and that was the WE program. The suggestion is that WE, it is an organization with profound ties to youth, not just in Canada, but the United States, the UK as well. WE is involved, according to their own figures, in 7,000 schools across the country.

Schools and groups. We believe that all young people can make a world of difference. And we're counting on you to... So the idea was this is a group that is connected to youth. They can bring students into this program, not only bring them on board, but part of what we was doing was mentorship and onboarding, all the various steps,

and then hooking those students up to these various charities. I want to ask for those who aren't familiar, what is the WE Charity? Some people might know it as Free the Children. That's what its name was up until a few years ago. And for anybody who was kicking around in the mid-90s, perhaps you can cast your mind back all the way to 1995. Then 12-year-old Craig Kielberger was flipping through the newspaper looking for the comic. He would read a newspaper story about a young Pakistani boy who, at the age of four,

he was sold into slavery for less than $16. He thought, hey, this could have been me. This isn't right. I want to do something about it. And so Craig, along with his older brother Mark, start this charity, Free the Children. We at Free the Children are receiving thousands of letters from children around the world saying, tell me what I can do to get involved. I want to help to change the world. And quickly really gained sort of international profile.

I mean, by the time he is 16 years old, he's been on Oprah. He's been profiled by 60 Minutes. He's had meetings with Jean Chrétien, the prime minister at the time. It's an incredibly important and powerful thing that you're doing. Greg Kielberger. Mark Kielberger. Mark Kielberger. Thank you so much. We're so impassioned, both of you. And now this has become your life's work. At first, the group was really focused on trying to fight child slavery, but their focus has really

expanded over the now 25 years. So they started looking at, well, how can we help the community? How can we provide or ensure that they have access to medical services, clean drinking water, alternative forms of income? So the charity grew in that respect, but the way a lot of Canadians might actually know them is through these youth empowerment events they do We Day. More than an event, it launches a year of actions for social change. People have perhaps seen this on TV before. It's a little bit like a rock concert.

Meets a pep rally, a lot of celebrities. Please welcome to the stage one of my heroes, Mr. Kofi Adan. A lot of people talking about what youth can do in their own community, celebrating youth leadership. They also provide curriculums in schools to get youth engaged. But all of this sort of speaks to that point I was making before, Josh, which is the idea that they are really engaged with young people. They have this connection. And that was supposed to be part of the pitch, the reason why they were the right group for the job, says the federal government. And I've seen videos of these WE Day events. I mean, they're these incredible spectacles. WE Day, give it up for Kendrick Lamar!

And they have A-list celebrities coming through them. coming through them. I mean, Kendrick Lamar and Al Gore and Alicia Keys and Jennifer Lopez will appear at these WE Day events and either perform or give speeches to the young people in attendance. And really get them sort of pumped up about their own ability to contribute to the community. What can young people do to make the world a better place? And that kind of message, which seems like something that a lot of people would be willing to get on side with, perhaps speaks to why they've been able to get all this attention from, you talked about a lot of notable celebrities. I mean, over the course of Craig Kilberger's work with the group, everybody from like Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama, you name it, Oprah, I mean, who's a bigger patron saint than Oprah, right? Certainly back in the day, at least,

they do have this massive support. And amongst the high profile people who have supported them, here we go, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. But now we're looking forward with WE and you are the future of Canada. And this is why there was criticism about this partnership almost right away. What is Justin Trudeau's relationship with the We Charity? He and his family have shown a lot of support for the organization over the years. In fact, after Justin Trudeau was officially sworn in as prime minister, one of the very first events he did, first speech he gave, was at a We Day event here in Ottawa. Today, today he'll be taking the We Day stage along with his wife, Sophie Glegualtano. And it's their first public appearance since their swearing-in ceremony.

Pumping up the crowd, talking to these kids about a very similar message, right? Look what you're able to do. Look at all the potential you have. You can help change the world. You can help make it a better place. And it certainly wasn't a one-time only thing. This is my fourth WE Day and I want to start by reminding you of something that each of you deeply know and was something that I said

at my very first WE Day. His wife, Sophie Gregoire Trudeau, she is actually, she has the title of ally and ambassador for WE. She's been doing a mental health podcast with them. Together, we've created a podcast all about busting stigma, building grit. His mother as well, who's been very active speaking about mental health. She has also done work with WE. And when we say work, I think it's important that everybody know by work, we do mean unpaid work. WE says that none of the Trudeaus have ever gotten an honorarium. Although, for instance, Sophie Gregoire Trudeau had her travel expenses paid when she went to a WE Day event in London. And that was just an interesting little twist here, actually, where she contracted COVID-19. So you've mapped out this longstanding connection between Trudeau and the WE Charity. What are the main points brought forward by the Conservatives and the NDP who are pointing to this relationship as a potential conflict of interest?

The NDP is calling for emergency hearings before millions of dollars roll out. It looks like Justin Trudeau is helping people who are very close to him, very good friends of his, that will certainly benefit from this. They do say that there is a problem here. And as I say, the prime minister has said, you know, my family doesn't receive compensation for this. Now, if you ask the conservatives, well, what's so what's so bad about that? Right. If he's not receiving any money, what's the problem? In fact, I asked Andrew Scheer that when I was interviewing him on Friday, and he said, well, look at the audiences. I mean, Justin Trudeau gets a platform, thousands of young people that he speaks to, a chance to get his message out. He's benefiting from that.

Well, there's certainly a benefit every time Justin Trudeau is given a platform to speak with thousands of students. We'll leave it to the ethics commissioner to determine as he has indicated that there will be an investigation into this. You'll pardon me for not taking Justin Trudeau's word. Is that not a connection? And certainly it is one of the issues that they that the conservatives and the NDP raised when they reached out to the ethics commissioner. The ethics commissioner didn't say that he would investigate all the points that the political parties raised, but one of them that he thought at least merited further consideration was this idea that Justin Trudeau's personal connection to WE might be an issue that, well, not might be, is an issue that he needs to explore more closely. And what do you think the WE charity stood to gain by taking on this project?

Well, it is a very difficult time for the charitable sector as a whole right now. And Well, it is a very difficult time for the charitable sector as a whole right now. And we do know, or I should say I know, not we the charity. It's tricky with the pronouns on this one. We laid off a significant portion of its workforce fairly early on in the pandemic. And I spoke earlier about the fact that this has been a really tough time for charities. And if you think about what we does, you can understand why this would be especially hard for the WE charity. What do they do? They're in schools. What shut down? Schools. They do WE days. Thousands of people packed into arenas. Well, that's not happening for the foreseeable future. They actually have

a sister company, a for-profit sister company that does what's often called volunteerism, so sending tourists out into the world, different places in South America, Asia, Africa, where they are doing projects in the community, trying to help out that community. Might be doing something like building a school. Again, not a lot of travel going on right now. So the model of WE was certainly going to be severely affected

by the COVID-19 pandemic. They laid off a lot of their staff. We did ask them precisely what portion. We did not want to comment on that, but it did tell us that because of this contract, the Canada Student Service Grant, it was bringing back a portion of its staff on short-term contracts. So there's that. WE doesn't make any profit, and the Prime Minister said this, there's no profit for WE in this. Of course, the WE charity is a charity. Charities don't make profit. I think it's important to make the point that no one is suggesting that anyone was lining their pockets here, but it gave WE work to do and a chance to bring back some staff

at a time when the entire charitable sector was struggling. And again, the line from the government on this has been that we was best equipped to do this job, although I will say there are certainly groups that quibble with that particular assessment. And you mentioned before that Trudeau said that the entity that reached out was the public service. They were the ones that suggested that WE Charity administer this grant. A video message from Mark Kilberger was leaked to the press. The Prime Minister, in one of his ongoing announcements, made an announcement about the fact that

because young people may have problems receiving jobs... And in that video message, he said that the PMO reached out to WE directly. And now he did walk back those claims later and said that he was speaking loosely and enthusiastically, and he was incorrect in that. And it actually was an unelected official at Employment and Social Development Canada. But how central is that question of who reached out to we to forge this alliance? I think we should say first, just like give credit where credit is due, it was our colleagues at the National Post that broke that particular story. And you're right to

say that we, I believe it was Mark Kielberger said that that wasn't what happened. But yes, there are a lot of questions being asked about how the civil service came to this particular conclusion that only this one group could do this. You know, people have said, why wasn't it the civil service itself? They've administered all kinds of other programs over the course of this pandemic. Were there not other organizations or perhaps a collaboration of different charitable not-for-profit organizations out there that could have done this. And certainly that is one of the places that the opposition parties are trying to apply pressure in the midst of all of this. They're saying, basically they're saying, show us the evidence, Mr. Prime Minister.

The time has come. You keep pinning all of this on the civil service and saying that this is the advice that they gave you. Prove it. that this is the advice that they gave you, prove it. If civil servants are going to say that there is no other charity that could come close to matching what we could do, where is the evidence? Did they do an analysis? And so certainly, as part of this investigation by the Ethics Commissioner, we might hope at some point to get a bit more clarity on that. But just because we have backed away from this partnership,

don't expect this issue to go away. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization,

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50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I want to ask you about some of the other criticisms aside from this perceived conflict of interest. Some people have come out and said that the whole idea of paying students for volunteer work rubbed them the wrong way. What kind of criticisms have we been hearing? Really on sort of both sides of the equation. You have groups like Volunteer Canada, which helps link up people to volunteering opportunities.

And Volunteer Canada has said, listen, we gave the government some advice about this program, but we actually said we wouldn't administer it. And part of their concern is that it blurs the line on what does it mean to volunteer. Is it really volunteering if you're being paid for it? Can you call that volunteering at all? On the other side of the equation, you have people, including labor lawyers, who say, wait a minute, when you say you have to work 100 hours to get $1,000, and the way this program works, it is in those 100-hour, $1,000 tranches. So you're either going to get $1,000, $2,000, et cetera, et cetera, all the way up to $5,000. Well, if you work exactly 100 hours and get paid exactly $1,000, that's $10 per hour.

That's less than minimum wage everywhere in Canada. And people are saying, well, isn't this actually a system where we are underpaying students and recent graduates? And why is that an appropriate model right now now as i say what the federal government has suggested about this program was that it was supposed to help two groups of people out at the same time students and charities and in the name of it it is supposed to be a grant not an hourly wage but there are some serious questions being raised about whether or not this in fact um is compliant with labor laws in can, which is another strange twist in all of this. So before the ethics investigation is announced on Friday,

the prime minister announces that the arrangement with WE is over, that the charity will no longer be administering these grants. Where does that leave the student grant program? Despite all the scrutiny and the controversy around the program, it's actually been relatively successful in terms of uptake. Initially, they were proposing something like 20,000 placements. Well, the last information we have from the federal government is that 35,000 people applied,

and the hope was to get them all placements. Now, the prime minister has said, we're going forward with the program. What I'm told is, you know, from people within the federal government say, it really was we that decided to back out of this. Now the federal government has to take this program back, and the prime minister said, listen, it's not going to be quite what it was. Like, we can't promise that we're going to be able to offer quite as many opportunities the way it has been explained to me. So they really bristle at the suggestion that,

hey, you said only we could do this. And now it turns out you guys can do it after all. They say, fundamentally, it's not going to be the same thing. But how exactly is it going to work? To be honest with you, Josh, I can't get a truly straight answer about this as we're speaking right now, because a lot of things I'm told really are still up in the air. Moving forward with government itself delivering directly these grants, certainly there are certain things that we will not be able to do as government delivers this program directly. Okay, so back to this ethics investigation.

Trudeau has already been twice found in violation of the Federal Conflict of Interest Act. One time over his vacation on the Aga Khan's private island back in 2016. You were going to take a free holiday from someone you consider a friend. How could it not have occurred to you that that might not have been okay? someone you consider a friend, how could it not have occurred to you that that might not have been okay? The fact is we work... Sorry, let me just try to reorder the thoughts. The other time, of course, trying to influence then Justice Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould in the SNC-Lavalin affair.

A tough year that cost him his top advisor, his top civil servant. You don't get do-overs in politics. You only do the best you can to protect jobs, to respect the independence of the judiciary. What does it mean that the ethics commissioner is now currently investigating Trudeau for a potential third conflict of interest? We obviously have to wait and see

what the results of this investigation are. The optics of it are not fantastic. They are bad. They are straight up bad for the prime minister. There aren't particular teeth that come along with a finding from the ethics commissioner. I think it's really about the message that it sends to the public about whether or not he's following the rules, breaking the rules. You know, the first time wasn't good.

The second time wasn't good. If indeed there is a third finding against the prime minister, it really does send a negative message. And these are the kinds of messages that do build up over time. And I, again, I don't want to preclude the results of this investigation. It's going to take Mario Dion, the ethics commissioner, some time to interview all the necessary people. And we have to wait and see what he finds. But this government, like many other governments, if we look at provincial governments,

has enjoyed a boost in popularity. People tend to initially support their governments in the midst of a crisis, but that kind of popularity bump can dissipate over time. So then the question is, well, what are you left with? And a message, any sort of message that suggests that the prime minister was in some way showing favoritism to someone would not be something that would be beneficial to this government. It risks contributing to a story that really can hurt them in the long run, I would say. Well, as you mentioned, the ethics investigation can take months.

But what are you going to be watching for in the coming days and weeks around this story? Well, I think one really important part of this story is, and it does get lost in here, but is the students, right? We talked about 35,000 applications. I really want to know what is happening with those students. How will this or will this materially change the experience that they are having? I think the questions about the program and how we were selected are going to continue, not with the same intensity or ferocity that they seem to be coming. And it really was

fast and furious for a couple of weeks there. I mean, we talked about the fact that this started out with questions about the prime minister's relationship, that there were questions about how the program itself was structured, but there were also a lot of questions about what we was doing. For instance, part of the program involved paying teachers $12,000 to recruit students upwards of, depending on where you lived, in the neighborhood of 75 students that they were going to recruit and mentor through this. But some people were saying, is it appropriate for teachers to be earning income off recruiting their students? Is that the kind of model we want to see? So those kinds of questions about what we was doing and why the federal government chose them, those weren't going to go away.

I do think there will still be a drip drip now, perhaps, too, if we do see some of these documents coming forward, you can expect those to be scrutinized closely as we try to figure out how it was that officials came to the conclusion that we was the one that should be involved. It will continue, not at the same pace, but it's certainly something the government is going to have to keep on its radar. And then, as you say, the ethics commissioner's investigation as well. It's not something that's going to disappear. Well, we will continue to track this story closely. Thank you so much for your insight into this. No problem. Before you go today, some news.

There are some new details about the Canadian Armed Forces member who allegedly rammed his truck through the front gates of Rideau Hall last week. Police say early Thursday morning, an armed man was able to breach the gates of Rideau Hall. Both the Prime Minister and Governor General live on the grounds, but neither one was home at the time. Corey Hurin has 22 criminal charges against him. According to newly filed court documents, Hurin allegedly had with him an M14 rifle, two shotguns, and a restricted high-standard revolver that he was not licensed for. The document also shows that he's accused of uttering or conveying a threat to, quote, cause death or bodily harm to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

That's all for today. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.