Front Burner - Justin Trudeau’s record vs rhetoric examined by Netflix’s ‘Patriot Act’

Episode Date: September 3, 2019

Today on Front Burner, with the federal election expected to be called soon, Power & Politics host Vassy Kapelos joins us to talk about Justin Trudeau’s gamble on an interview with a U.S. comedian, Andrew Scheer’s position on gay marriage and abortion, and Maxime Bernier’s tweets about teenage climate activist Greta Thunberg.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is expected to call an election really any day now. It could be as early as today. Just a note to say that we recorded this on Monday in case that actually happens.

And there is a lot to talk about already, including Trudeau's gamble on an interview with an American comedian, Andrew Scheer's position on gay marriage and abortion, and Maxime Bernier calling a teenage climate activist mentally unstable online. Power and Politics host Vashie Capellos is here with me now from Ottawa to talk about all of this. This is Frontburner. Vashi, hello. Hi. I'm so happy to be able to catch up with you. It feels like it has been a long time.

Yeah, I'm happy to be on. Thanks for having me. And I should say, I know we've both been on vacation over the summer and you got married. Am I allowed to say that on this podcast? Sure, yeah. Geriatric bride. Thank you. Yeah. Congratulations, my friend.

Thanks a lot. Very beautiful. Miracles do happen. Really appreciate it. All right. We got a lot of ground to cover today. Let's start with the pending writ drop. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is expected to call the election pretty soon.

And then once he does that, we'll have an election sometime on or before October 21st. What are you hearing? What are the rumors? Yeah, it's basically like silly season in Ottawa right now. This is literally all that anyone is talking about. What have you heard? What have you heard? And I think I can more honestly say that I hear something different every single day. So me too, me too. Yeah, the 8th, the 11th, the 15th. So there's two theories. Either they're going to drop the writ or whatever the proper way to say it is, call the election prior to the Manitoba election, which is scheduled for the 10th of September, or they'll wait until a few days after that. I've been hearing more of the latter lately, but that's not to say that the former is ruled out.

So, you know, anywhere I hear in this range, anywhere from the 8th to the 15th type of thing. And what would be the strategy behind waiting? I mean, all the cards lie in the Liberals' camp right now, right? Because they're the ones who are going to make this decision. So a shorter campaign means less opportunity to mess up, less opportunity for scandals to come out, etc., etc. They're doing pretty well. They've weathered the latest scandal in the Ethics Commissioner's report.

Mario Dion says Justin Trudeau broke the conflict of interest rules by using his authority over former Attorney General Jody Wilson-Raybould. Now we have the Conservatives at just under 34%, the Liberals just under 33%. And in the polls that we've seen, those four polls, we've only seen shifts in voting intentions of a point or two, really all within the margin of error kind of stuff. They're kind of neck and neck with the Conservatives, so just a bit more stability. The pros of having a longer campaign are very strategic

in that the NDP, of course, has the least amount of money right now, probably can't afford to run a sort of top-tilt campaign for the longer period. And so if you were to sort of crush them more with a longer campaign, that could be theoretically to the Liberals' advantage. A depressed NDP vote would especially benefit them in Quebec. So strategically, that would be the call for an earlier one. Okay. And fair to say, if it comes on the 11th, if it comes on the 15th, that's still a relatively short election. Well, everything's relative

compared to the last one, which felt like 17 years. I know. It'll be more than twice as long as most campaigns. At 11 weeks long, it will be the longest federal campaign in modern Canadian history. Or compared to the U.S., it feels like literally 27 years. Yes, it is. That one is actually 27 years. But at least in 2015, I mean, we would have right now been in the essentially halfway point, not even, of the campaign. And we haven't even started it yet. So it'll be short by comparison. in the essentially halfway point, not even, of the campaign. And we haven't even started it yet.

So it'll be short by comparison. I know we've been in sort of pseudo-election mode. Last week, all the parties released their slogans. The Liberals choose forward. We've got a choice to make. Keep moving forward and build on the progress we've made or go back to the politics of the Harper years. The Greens, not left, not right, but forward together. Very similar forward theme here.

The Conservatives have time for you to get ahead. I have a plan to lower the cost of living, to make life more affordable, to leave more money in the pockets of Canadians. And the NDP is expected to announce ours this week, right? Mm-hmm. So, you know, the candidates have been out. Jagmeet Singh, Trudeau, Scheer, they're all in Hamilton today on Labor Day, like sort of wooing the unions.

My friend, Jagmeet Singh. We want to end once and for all the use of these replacement workers. Scabs are going to bring in legislation. But as someone who's covered a ton of elections, I know you've done this a lot. What are some top-level things that people can expect once the red is dropped? A few things. I think you'll see what we've sort of been all living in in this almost like, as you said, pseudo campaign environment sort of amp up to the maximum degree. So you'll see a ton of travel. The leaders will start crisscrossing the country. And they'll also start the other big thing to look at is making announcements. And I think it's important for our listeners to sort of view those announcements

through a critical eye insofar as a lot of them will be things you already know about that they've already announced. A lot of them have dropped a lot of their, much of their platform already. We know what to expect. So you've got to kind of scrutinize them and say like, is this actually new? Is this, how are they going to pay for it? Where is this coming from? That kind of thing. But there will be, I know, for example, for both the liberals and the conservatives, there are certain policy planks that will still be released during this campaign.

So usually you'll wake up, there'll be some sort of announcement from each leader in the morning, then they'll hit the circuit throughout the afternoon and usually another speech or event at night. A lot of it is meant to rally the troops. You want to conjure up images of people being supportive and cheering for and being excited for those leaders.

And then they're hoping that those get transmitted via TV and internet and all that kind of thing. And then voters consume that. So I would say expect them to be somewhere near you at some point soon. A lot of travel for them. And then a lot of we're going to do this and that and this for you. Got it, got it. And when we're talking about sort of old promises made new again, give me some examples of that. Are we talking about like the NDP's pharmacare plan, maybe the Liberals on the environment? Yeah, exactly. Like, for example, let's take a couple policy plans of

the Liberals, even pharmacare, right? We know what the NDP plans to do. Comprehensive, publicly delivered, medication for all program. The Liberals have hinted for the past six months mercilessly that they're going to do something big on it. We know there is more to do and that's why we welcome the report by Dr. Eric Hoskins. It talks about the next steps that we can move forward on. But we don't know for sure is that, does that mean single payer? How universal will that be? Like those details will be released or, you know, on climate. We know that the Conservatives have already released their plan. Emitters who exceed our limits will be required to invest in technology that will lower emissions to fight climate change.

Is there something additional that they're going to add to it or will they devote an entire day to just re-revealing it? Because that happens a lot. Got it. Got it. So all things for us to look out for. Let's talk about some recent news, including this appearance that Trudeau made over the weekend on the Netflix series Patriot Act with Hasan Minhaj. World leader or my friend's dad? I think that's your friend's dad. No, this is Lennon Moreno, the president of Ecuador.

When you meet Lennon, it's going to be super awkward, Mr. Prime Minister. First of all, you make a cameo in it, which is great. Canada's ethics watchdog has ruled Prime Minister Justin Trudeau violated the Conflict of Interest Act. Yeah, it's very exciting that more people contact me about that than they ever have about my own show. That's amazing. That's super depressing. Netflix, man, Netflix. And that might say something about the liberal strategy that I want to talk to you about in a second.

So in this episode, Trudeau sits down for an interview with Hassan and he's this comedian, but he really also challenges him, I thought, on a range of issues that feel to him sort of hypocritical or incongruous with the way that he views Canada as a country and Trudeau as a leader, as a sort of international beacon of progressive value. So he touches on the SNC scandal. He brings up Trudeau's stance on climate change and indigenous issues being at odds with his support of the Trans Mountain Pipeline. But I feel like it's pulling in two different directions. It's like me saying, I'm going to lose weight by eating more Kit Kats. No. He challenges him on Canada's decision to continue to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia, particularly as a country with this long legacy of peacekeeping. You could announce it right here, right now. We're canceling the deal.

We take our legal responsibilities and the breaking of contracts very seriously in this country. The segment is called The Two Sides of Canada. And so did you think it was fair? I thought it was totally fair. I thought it was actually really digestible. It almost like laid bare sort of a lot of the hypocrisy of what I think a lot of Canadians see. Not just, I mean, it focused on Justin Trudeau, but it also talked about the other parties as well.

But Trudeau's main opposition is the leader of the Conservative Party, Andrew Scheer, who looks like the doll from The Conjuring, which is not a good look. I think it almost like tapped into a sense that a lot of people have that they're not really buying a lot of what politicians sell. And this isn't just endemic to Canada. It's kind of around the world, as we've seen in a lot of different elections. But they're not just they're just sort of like extremely skeptical of everything they hear. And he sort of laid it bare.

I thought, especially on the issues you touched, my favorite part was the part where he brought up Saudi Arabia. Yes. Because the government has talked, the liberals have talked a lot and condemned the behavior of even Saudi's king when it comes to the murder of Jamal Khashoggi and the leadership of Saudi Arabia over that. Ottawa is imposing sanctions on a group of Saudi nationals

allegedly linked to the killing in Turkey, freezing their assets and barring them from entering this country. But at the same time, we're selling them these labs and billions of dollars worth. And they promised since that murder that they would review it. And he just totally hits on it. He's like, well, you said nine months ago you guys would be examining it. And it takes about three months to study for the LSAT. So that's a pretty good examination.

Even the way that he asks him flat out, you know, he's talking about sort of like finish this sentence. And he's like, what is Tim Hortons in Canada? A Canadian institution. And he's easy questions and then brings all of a sudden comes to Saudi Arabia and is like, Canada will not sell any more weapons to Saudi Arabia, period. And the look on the prime minister's face. Yeah, it is not a great look. No, but I think it's actually like important for, I know it's not meant for a Canadian audience, but it was actually very revealing on a number of big issues. And I think, you know, in some respects, the prime minister very ably defended his position,

especially around climate and around, you know, growing the economy while at the same time protecting the environment, which is a hard message to sell as of late, and especially given the actions of BindTNX, et cetera. The alternative to a modern pipeline is oil by rail or oil by trucks, because our society continues to need oil right now. The idea being here that they're going to take all the profits from this expanded pipeline and put it into new technology,

like environmentally friendly technology. We're talking about actually exporting it more efficiently, where we'll actually get a better price that will allow us to invest more in the transition. I also thought it was a pretty good segment. I usually get a bit grouchy when Americans cover Canadian news. He was accurate. But yeah, I think they did a really good job here. There was another moment. Hassan is kind of

comparing Canada to Wakanda, sort of this nation that is amazing and has all these incredible values, fictional paradise from the movie Black Panther. I'm speaking to the leader of Wakanda, the son of the former leader of Wakanada, which makes you... The prime minister of Canada because we had... Your white panther. And then Trudeau responded by saying... I'm like 160 Malaysian. Which is kind of an odd retort.

And then he corrected. I think he said 132nd or something like that. Yeah, I'm pretty sure under his breath I heard that. But yeah, it was interesting. I thought it was a really good depiction of the truth of this country. Like, it's very easy for us to say we're amazing. I remember going to the UN once and covering Obama, I think right after Trudeau won. And the people who were with him, the one thing that they, and this is an, I've never told this story,

the one thing that they said was, it really rubs people in the White House the wrong way that we're so arrogant. That we sort of like pronounce ourselves, you know, the moral authority on so many things. And it comes across as arrogant. I remember people who actually were like working in the White House saying that to me. It is interesting to hear us being depicted as arrogant, although it does make a ton of sense. Yeah. And I thought that's what the episode did a good job of. Sort of like, yeah, they have all these, and we are an amazing country. I'm not trying to undersell us.

There's a lot of great things, but the reality is it's not so black and white. Which also leads me to the question, why do you think the liberals said yes to this? Well, I think at the end of the day, the message at the end of the episode or whatever you want to call it was, he's very hypocritical on a lot of stuff, but the conservatives on these issues would be worse. On almost every issue that I have mentioned tonight. The last time the conservatives were in power, they cut spending on refugees.

They withdrew Canada from the Kyoto Climate Accords and labeled groups like Greenpeace violent extremists. And so this show comes at it from a certain perspective, right, where those types of progressive issues are very valued by the sort of take or editorial take that the show has. And so I think that that was in line with Justin Trudeau. Who knows if he expected the type of questions that he got? I'm sure to a certain degree that he did. But the main message at the end of it was still like Justin Trudeau is a better option than the other guys. So if Trudeau is going to be the best choice on carbon emissions, he'll have to step up and be the climate hero that he is claimed to be. I'm not saying I'm not endorsing that in any way or anything, but I think that's probably why they would have said yes. It feels like this is playing into a much larger strategy that the liberals have. We recently talked about this with our

colleague Aaron Wary on the show. The idea that they're trying to set this up as a referendum between Trudeau and Scheer is particularly because the NDP is so far behind. Yeah, I think and I think even more so than a reference, I actually would I would I would disagree almost with the with the characterization that's Trudeau versus Scheer. I think it's liberals versus conservatives. And I say that because Trudeau's popularity has taken a big hit, whereas the liberals as a whole have not taken proportionally as big of a hit. The conservatives, if you hear the way the liberals and Justin Trudeau sort of try to stack themselves up against the conservatives, it's always Doug Ford and conservatives like him.

Conservative politicians have a different approach. When we raised taxes on the wealthiest one percent so we could cut them for the middle class, they tried to stop us. Conservatives like him, very rarely are they using Andrew Scheer specifically. And that's because their internal polling shows them that Scheer is not sort of the does not give off the same kind of, I guess, perception that Stephen Harper did. So they're less able to paint him as the mean guy type of thing. They are able to, I mean, they've been successful, and we'll talk about it and sort of highlighting some of his views and trying to form an opinion of him in the public. But the public so far doesn't believe that he's Stephen Harper. So you'll often hear the liberals say conservatives like them. But I do think that you're totally right in saying that this is shaping up to be like us versus them

and trying to force people to make that choice. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Let's talk about the Liberal strategy vis-a-vis Andrew Scheer. So as you mentioned, they are trying to go after him, particularly when it comes to his views on abortion and gay marriage. Andrew Scheer is a devout Catholic. And, you know, we saw this recently.

So remind me what happened. Yeah, this was a huge problem in the last week and a half for the conservatives. It started with a tweet from Ralph Goodell, who is, of course, a Liberal minister, a long-time Liberal minister. He also has a riding, he represents a riding in Saskatchewan. Andrew Scheer represents a riding in Saskatchewan as well. He tweeted out a 2005 video of Andrew Scheer speaking out in opposition to same-sex marriage. As they cannot commit to the natural procreation of children, they cannot, therefore, be married. And it was a compelling clip because it wasn't just saying, you know, I'm against this or my beliefs are X, Y, Z. How many legs would a dog have if you counted the tail as a leg? The answer

is just four. Just because you call a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. If this bill passes, governments and individual Canadians will be forced to call a tail a leg, nothing more. Those are very, very, I think, outdated views for a majority of Canadians right now. It also, as the Conservatives rightly pointed out, was from 2005. There was quite a bit of opposition. In fact, the government at the time was kind of, you know, drag kicking and screaming to even make same-sex marriage legal. To those who would oppose this bill, I urge you to consider that the core of the issue before us today is whether the rights of all Canadians are to be respected. Ralph Goodall himself in 1999 voted against same-sex marriage.

So there is, you know, some truthfulness to that. But at the same time, it's hard to digest those kinds of words in this time, especially for those types of voters that the liberals are trying to court on the more progressive side of things. And so that came out, then there was a whole story about abortion. And the lieutenant for the Conservatives in Quebec saying one thing saying basically, nobody can bring in anything to do with abortion, including backbench MPs. And then the Conservatives having to say, Oh, no, that's not our policy. Our policy is just that the government won't endorse that, that they won't allow anything to go forward.

But we're not going to sort of stifle the will of backbench MPs if they want to bring something up. So fast forward, all this stuff goes on. Finally, Andrew Scheer gets up and does a press conference in which he has to answer questions about this. Now, Trudeau can't run on his record. That's why he's dredging up divisive social issues, trying to distract Canadians from his litany of failures. And, you know, he had been silent for the majority of that week.

He had been, yes. As a sort of building. And so what does he say in this press conference? He essentially says our position is clear. We will not reopen these debates. As a government, we, you know, we're not going to introduce anything about this, we won't allow this debate to go forward, but yes, backbench MPs can come forward. Individual MPs have the right to express themselves on matters of conscience, but that a Conservative government will not reopen these divisive social issues. He was then pressed quite persistently and specifically about his own personal views. Every individual Canadian has a right to their own personal convictions

on any number of issues. I will always ensure that I am governing for all Canadians. And from my perspective, that was probably the worst part of the press conference for the Conservative leader. He looked uncomfortable, he sounded uncomfortable, and he was not direct in answering those questions. So, for example... You say your views on same-sex marriage, as defined by law, have changed.

How have they personally changed? Well, instead he talked about how he views everybody as equal. My personal views are that LGBT Canadians have the same inherent self-worth and dignity as every other Canadian. He didn't say, yes, my views have evolved. I no longer think those things about same-sex marriage. He was asked, when did they evolve? In what way have they evolved? And why? This issue was settled in 2005. The parliament had a vote. Canadians had

their say in two elections. He didn't answer any of those questions. Right. And you mentioned that comment he made about just because you call a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. Like he didn't he didn't say that his views have evolved when it comes to that comment in particular as well, which was maybe the most incendiary thing in that video. that the Liberals conjured this up to turn the page away from SNC. That is correct. But I think while that can be right, at the same time, someone can also see his reaction and the sort of abstract way he answered those questions, those very specific questions, as a detractor for that party as well. Okay. Let's move on to Maxime Bernier.

Briefly, I want to touch on this because I want to ask you, what on earth is going on here? You're assuming I can explain. So the former conservative and current leader of the People's Party of Canada drummed up a lot of controversy by going after teen climate activist Greta Thunberg. My name is Greta Thunberg. I am 15 years old and I'm from Sweden. Many people say that Sweden is just a small country and it doesn't matter what we do. But I've learned that you are never too small to make a difference. But I've learned that you are never too small to make a difference. On the weekend on Twitter, calling her mentally unstable and a climate alarmist, among other things. You've been covering Ottawa for a long time. Is this the Maxime Bernier that you know?

You know, somebody who calls a teenager who is Asperger's, I would mention, mentally unstable? Yeah, it just makes me like my chest hurt. I don't know him super well. I've interviewed him a number of times. I've said consistently since the beginning, when things weren't as crazy on Twitter via his tweets, that it still even at that point didn't match up. He's very different in person, very open minded in person, and actually like a very engaging interview. He's one of the only politicians you'll interview who actually gives you a direct answer to your question.

It's really hard to get that. Which is nearly impossible. I was there at the Conservative leadership and you know, 12 rounds you rode ahead. How hard was that loss to take? At that time, I must admit that my feeling I was relieved. But in the months since, some of the stuff that is put out on Twitter,

I had asked him at the time even about Twitter, I think this was almost a year ago, and he said that he doesn't make the tweets, but that he approves and he sees each and every one of them. So he is signing off on all of this. And there have been multiple tweets on this. There's been lots of space over the last couple of days for him to back down. Yeah, he has. I mean, and this isn't the only controversial tweet. He's tweeted very controversial ones about race, about immigration, about women. I mean, you name it. So this one, I think, is,

again, drawing some reaction. And, you know, who knows how much airtime we want to give it, or airtime we want to give him. But it's drawing that reaction because it's going after a child, like you said, right? And calling someone mentally unstable who has Asperger's is just kind of beyond the pale. You know, is this strategy working at all? Are we seeing any movement in the polls for the People's Party? There hasn't been a huge amount of uptick necessarily, but a lot of internal polls for parties that I've talked to have shown the support for the PPC, his party, to be higher than bigger, more public polls show, which indicates to them, and I would say the majority of those parties are operating under the assumption that actually the level of popular support for this party is a bit higher than people publicly say. So that means that people are not necessarily, they don't feel like they can be forthcoming about their support for him and for the party. But I don't want to overstate it. That's not, I mean, it's still,

they're pulling like 1% or 2% right now. So I am also very interested in how libertarians in this country are reacting to Bernier's sort of move towards identity politics. And anyways, that's a conversation that hopefully we can have another day. And speaking of conversations that we're going to have on other days, this feels like it's good a time as any to mention that, you know, as this election gets up and running, you're going to be here with us every week, one day a week for like a very election specific FrontBurner episode. Thank you so much for doing this. I know you've already got a really busy schedule. It's my pleasure. If you're not sick of me already, you will be then. I think we're going to be very sick of each other.

No, I can never get sick of you. You're the best. So it's going to be us, and we're going to rotate every week with some of our colleagues and then other journalists or academics. For everybody listening out there, please tweet me, tweet Vashi, email us, frontburner at cbc.ca. What are you interested in? What do you want to learn about? We are really keen to make this nonpartisan and explanatory so that when you guys go to the polls, you feel like you have the information that you need to

make a decision, regardless of what that decision is. Exactly. Well, Vashi Cabellos, thank you. I'm so glad that I got to catch up with you. If I had to start September, I'm very happy to do it with you. You have to start it, Jamie. I do, I guess. I guess it's not really a question. But thank you for that very, very sweet compliment. Okay.

Thanks, Jamie. OK, so in addition to our coverage, which we'll keep you posted on, the CBC also launched its coverage plans yesterday. They include a new politics podcast from our friends Rosie Barton and Elamin Abdelmoud. It's called Party Lines. There's a special pop-up bureau out west to get perspectives from across the country and a misinformation unit. Expect those guys on regularly. And of course, election night on television. I'm going to be there moderating a panel with some really sharp Canadians. I know I mentioned Devashi. I was reluctant to walk into September as if I had some sort of choice. I know that time does move forward. But actually, now that we're talking about all of this, I'm getting pretty excited.

That's it for today, though. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner, and I'll see you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.